Glyn M Ruck

Remember that the W203 Coupe/hatchback & the CLC that followed it were not good sellers for Benz. They were always compromised vehicles. Benz realised there was a place for a proper Coupe below the E Class coupe that followed the CLK. Fortunately they did a good job of it this time & it is selling well.

RLE

The current German Car mag Auto motor Und Sport has a picture article showing the undisguised production model, plus the other new models. Also, it's marked C350 but has only one double pipe on the left. It also has the new all-model outside mirrors.

Above the photo, notice the left/right arrows for more pictures.http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/b...otoshow_item=1

Glyn M Ruck

Might be a C350 diesel.

kaputt

Sorry to bring back an old topic but I've been searching for an answer to this question around the internet and haven't been able to find one.

All of the articles I've read about the new C mention a manual transmission, but I am skeptical because obviously the current version had the manual dropped from production. Anyone know if they are actually thinking of bringing it back? If so that would be awesome.

Sportstick

Your screen name describes the manual trans on MBs.....kaputt. In my chats with MBUSA, they have zero interest in considering them again. If/when you see the W205, it actually makes some sense. Folks who are energetic/engaged/enthusiastic enough to want a stick probably won't like the car, which looks even more sedate, soft, and old, and those who like the car likely will have even less interest in a stick.

The articles you are reading are likely referencing the European product array, where sticks are more common/ordinary, and not as much for just the fringe as is increasingly the case here (and I am part of that fringe!)

MDMercedesGuy

If they were going to bring out a manual in anything, I would think that it would be in the CLA. That said, I have seen more than a handful of SLK250 Manuals around here, so it appears that some people are buying those. I would be curious what the take rate is.

Sportstick

Agreed, but they are not....CLA is 100% slushbox, per the Montvale planners. Only the two seater SLK will have a stick going forward, and that car is too useless for me. The concept of the "sport sedan" has left the building.

Glyn M Ruck

Remember in other markets the CLA will be available with a DCT. Like SA.

Glyn M Ruck

BTW ~ the new A Class launch has been so successful in SA that the order book is now full to mid 2014.

alsyli

According to the MB USA website, the US CLA will also have a DCT.

My understanding is that previous MB manual transmissions were very unpleasant to use, which might also contribute to why the take-rate here in the US was virtually nil....

ralawren

I would be very interested in a DCT option in the C350, especially if the rumors are true that it will be a turbo 6 cylinder with 330 HP+

MB has to decide if they are going to compete with the BMW 335i and S4!!! This would be one way to level the playing field. If they added the adjustable dynamic handling package like BMW has to a sport version of the C350 they would have a formidable offering that would be $50K or less!!! Much better value than a 335i or possibly the S4.

MDMercedesGuy

Mercedes already offers the Dynamic Handling Package on all of the C's... it's not an advertised option in the brochure though. It's like $1,800 + $250 SFO charge if I recall correctly.

Glyn M Ruck

So as not to offend MT owners let's just say that Benz MT's & clutch action are somewhat agricultural. IMHO it spoils the cars.

I have test driven the new A250 Sport with DCT. I like it a hell of a lot more than MT & can't wait to drive the A45 similarly equipped.

That said it suffers from typical Benz programmed-in latency. I'm hoping with future software flashes they improve response times as I'm sure AMG will do.

It is not as quick to respond as the better sorted Audi DCT. Fortunately the differences seem to be in the software.

C300Sport

I have to admit that I was not very pleased with my first manual transmission...as you may have described before, the shift action became like a broomstick in a bucket of marbles. When they finally replaced it, the new one is pretty darn good. It's not as slick as a Miata or S2000 but it's not bad either. For me, unless it's just terrible, I will always prefer a manual as it's just more engaging.
I will say that that once I installed my OE Tune, the improved throttle response really makes throttle blipping for rev matching much easier.
Of course if I'm driving an S Class or something similar, I'll take the auto.

Sportstick

Yes, you completely understand! The worst sin would be the boredom of two pedals and a left leg and some part of the brain with little to do. The part the MBUSA guys never understood was that a stick is not about going faster, but is for the folks in whom they no longer seem interested....the truly "driving-engaged". They never marketed, never got the dealers on board, never scheduled production to support any kind of push to get these drivers. They build a few low-end models for North America to help maintain an advertiseable price point without the burden of the automatic trans price.

Glyn, as for DCT, they are advanced, but have not had a good track record. If we must have an automatic, it better be silky, creamy smooth and in the right gear. Ford, for example, has suffered condemnation for its relatively clunky DCT in Fiesta and Focus. The bumpiness that some in Europe consider "normal" or "tolerable" does not get good grades here, as Ford found out. I've not read of anyone who has done much better, certainly not as good as a conventional trans for smoothness. Folks get excited about DCT (or most things with a new set of initials!), but then have a disappointment when they have to live with the thing....remember the excitement about CVT? How did that turn out? The new Accord is being considered remarkable because just now, their CVT is getting back to feeling as good as an old GM turbohydramatic!!

My mantra remains, "4 doors, 3 pedals!"

alsyli

First, I'll fully admit that I don't know how to use a MT, so you might want to take my comments w/ a grain of salt.... However, my impression was that MB never offered manuals to engage the driver. Back in the 80s, 90s, it take on it was that MB offered the manual transmission simply b/c it got better fuel economy, and Europeans tend to be much more concerned about fuel efficiency than we are in the US.

As far as MB not getting it about MTs and driver engagement, I think that's all European makes in general, no? I doubt the take rate for manuals is as high in Europe as it once was since DCT shift faster and offer better fuel economy. My impression is that the makes (like BMW) that offer a manual transmission in the US find it to be a, um, charming anachronism (::running and ducking:.

LandSeaAir

The w204 is the best car ever made... I'm gonna keep mine forever

Sportstick

Interesting perspective, but one has to distinguish MB from MBUSA. The history of manuals in Europe is much more based on issues of history, cost, efficiency, cultural norms, and the impression early on that automatics were for Americans who are less sophisticated drivers. Manuals are a norm overseas.

In the US, for which MBUSA specs its cars, manuals have been considered much more "sporting" in recent decades as automatics have taken over the task many Americans perceive as drudgery....having to drive to work/school, etc. Only a minority of folks actually enjoy driving (yes, I have data to support that). So, it is both a form of entertainment for a small sub-segment. As many younger folks, such as yourself, never even had the chance to learn and experience the joy of this level of art/complexity in their drive, some may see it as anachronistic. But, BMW's position as the Ultimate Driving Machine uses the manual not to seem old fashioned, however, but to appeal to that slice who really want to integrate the performance of man and machine, and not just have a "nice drive".

I expect that automatics (DCT or otherwise) will continue to displace automatics in Europe and worldwide for at least one reason. They are typically less costly to manufacture than are manual transmissions. This is one of the unknown surprises to those outside the industry, because automatics have historically had a price premium, creating a false conclusion about actual cost. As this happens, assembly plants get the benefit of fewer powertrain combinations to manage, and engineering has less development work to do. Those of us who want three pedals get fewer and fewer choices, and 100 years from now, this will be seen as similar to a discussion on the relative merits of different horse-drawn carriage designs. So, enjoy the sticks while you can (if you know how! )

alsyli

But I think that appeal is more specific to the US nowadays. I think the M5 had/has a MT that is really only offered for the US market and, as a consequence, isn't particularly well-regarded since BMW didn't seem to have spent as much developing it (if IIRC from an article I read several mo ago). I also remember that when Porsche introduced its PDK transmission, it seemed to imply that its test drivers preferred it b/c they were able to get faster times (again, IIRC correctly).

As for manual transmissions being the norm, I assume that's in part b/c Europeans seem to keep their cars for far longer than we do in the lease-happy US. I don't recall seeing a lot of "newish" cars when I was there a few months ago. And there certainly weren't a lot of luxury cars being driven by everyday folks. I assume that, when these cars were first purchased many yrs ago, manuals still provided better fuel-efficiency than automatics did.... And that, as people start to replace their cars, DCTs will likely become the norm (not just for cost savings but b/c I presume Europeans car much more about fuel savings).

I can conceptually understand why someone would prefer a manual. But my daily commute consists of horrific LA city traffic or driving in a straight line on the freeway (w/o much traffic). Not really much in terms of driver engagement available there.... And a stick would really just be a pain in the a$$ in the city....

MDMercedesGuy

A manual becomes second nature in traffic after you have driven it for a while. I never felt like it was a chore in DC rush hour - in fact, not having to wait for a transmission to figure out what it wants to do is great for plugging gaps in traffic.

Glyn M Ruck

I think one needs to drive a Porsche PDK. It is truly the best of both worlds. The VAG group MQB platform used in Audi A3 & new Golf 7 uses a DCT developed from the PDK design & is thoroughly sorted. A pleasure to drive with immediate response & smooth action to paddle shifter changes.

Manual transmissions are dying. In a very short period they will cease to exist in all but third world country run abouts. McLaren did not even consider a manual in their new road cars & Porsche, Ferrari & Lambo have already indicated that MT's will be deleted from future models.

In a recent survey predicting the final demise of the MT ratings were as follows so Benz is not worst by any means much as I can't stand them. This from someone who owned 7 Alfa's in his lifetime with their wonderful old 5 speed.

5 worst Gearboxes:

Smart automated manual
Aston Martin Vanquish
Porsche 911 7 speed
Lotus Elise/Exige
Aston Martin V8 Vantage manual

5 best manual transmissions:

McLaren F1
Honda Integra Type R
Porsche Cayman R
Audi R8
Renaultsport Clio 200

MT's might be more fun to the old school but mere flesh, blood and synapses can't compete with 50 millisecond powershifts.

In a recent comparative test between the Benz A180 DCT, BMW 116i manual & Audi A3 Sportback 1.4T FSI DCT in our local Car magazine of "ordinary" models at similar price points the BMW manual came stone last in all respects. Audi & Benz were neck & neck with Audi given a few more points for it's better sorted DCT software & Benz a few more points for style. South Africa is more driven by European sentiments when it comes to automobiles. Prefering firm sporty ride, better handling & chuckability with decent fuel economy. BMW's recent efforts have lost a lot of driver feel in efforts to improve comfort. Golf 7 & derivatives achieves the best compromise. It has a remarkably poised chassis that will embarrass many manufacturers.

Sportstick

I realize and respect that we have different perspectives and won't change each others'. However, the last sentence continues to make me think the motivation for some of us is still unclear. It's not about competing or being faster. It's the fun of being involved and having more to do. I don't know how else to explain it...either one feels it....or not.

It seems here in the C Class segment, Audi, BMW, and Cadillac ATS are maintaining my favorite choice. I know some regard us as 3rd world (fast food and our "popular" music as evidence!!), but I think I will find another couple of cars ahead of me still.

Glyn M Ruck

See my edited post. Sorry we posted over each other.

Sportstick

Interesting addition.....yes, the next gen VW/Audi platform products will certainly deserve a look, but the early news on the A3 sedan is not good here....all automatic. We can only hope the Jetta GLI at VW or A4 at Audi still offers some choices.

MDMercedesGuy

I actually grew to like the transmission in my smart. In North America, the 451 smart is programmed to behave more like a traditional automatic with a creep function and such. Most of the time, the shifting is slow and deliberate; but it is mostly cooperative and for those times when it is losing its mind, a tap of a paddle activates manual mode.

MB fitted the NA versions with a traditional PRND +/- shifter, which leads a lot of people to think it is an automatic and they end up hating it. I've always said that it is a car for engineers - if you understand what it is doing you tend to understand why it behaves the way it does.

Out of curiousity, what's up with the Porsche 7 speed?