ddeliber

I took a look at the 2013 w204s (c300 and c350 sedans) and I am confused about a few things. I was really wondering for a while, so I thought I would ask. Perhaps someone can help me understand what the differences are and almost as importantly why MB made these decisions :

1) Engine.. They both have the 3.5L D/I right or does Mercedes have two 3.5s? What are the differences in the actual motor? Is it just software de-tune (or whatever you call it) accounting for the notable difference in HP/TQ or did they put some different stuff inside? Based on specs, it appears that the C350 has the same setup as the E350 (and other 3.5s).
2) Apart from an effort to differentiate the 2 trims Why? If it is just software it seems a little odd (read silly) to retard the performance of one simply to make the other more appealing don't you think? Is there a cost difference on their end? I guess I would really be surprised if this (reduce power with SW only) was the case as MB really seems to know what they are doing but I simply don't understand the real differences.
3) 4Matic... Why the strange 4Matic choices. As far as I can tell the 300 has to have AWD and the 350 doesn't allow the option. Now I may be wrong here, but it just seems that way from what I have seen. Again, if this is in fact true, Why?
4) If my assumptions are correct above, can't someone simply tune their 300 to turn it into a 350 (performance wise of course - aesthetics are separate here).
5) Pricing.. This one throws me for a loop as well. the 350 comes with P1 standard, and from what i can tell, P1 is a VERY common option with the 300s - the standard lease offered from MB has P1 so the Vast majority of them on the lot and on the road have P1. From this, the 350 lists for slightly LESS than the 300 (without the 4Matic of course). What is the logic here? Did I do my math wrong? Why are there two trim levels at such a similar price?
6) What are the performance differences between these two models apart from the numbers published by MB? Has anyone driven both of them on the same day during a test drive or something? Note, this is also similar for the 2011 and earlier versions, they had two distinctly different engines but the performance numbers were extremely similar so much so that it would seem to defeat the purpose of having the two different trims.

Simply by looking at the two packages as a whole without driving them one would think that the 350 is sportier and the 300 meant as a more economical version and possibly more of a cruiser. However, based on what I saw (or at least what I think I saw) this is really not the case. Personally, if the 350 came with 4matic (say at $1.5 k or so) I don't see why anyone would buy a c300 sport (assuming that a SW tune would negatively affect the warranty). Again I am only talking about performance, sportier standard interior and other appearance difference are a different story.

Now it is entirely possible that I have missed something so any corrections are welcome.

Samaral

I can tell you about my non technical experience.
From what I know, there is only one 6 Cil DI engine. The 300 it is a detunned version of the 350, that is the same on c350 and E350.
The difference between the two versions, 300 and 350 it is some 50HP!!! That makes a huge difference in performance. I don't think the detunned it is only on software. I believe that if you try to modify the 300 to get back as the 350, you better buy the 350 to begin with(money wise, not mentioning head aches and warranty issues).
Regarding the trims, here in Canada the packages are a bit different then in US, but again, there are some features/options that are standard on the 350 that you have to pay aside on the 300.
My understanding is that the 300 it is more affordable, but of course you lose in performance and some gadgets/comfort/trimming.
Now, based only on drive satisfaction, I strong recommend the 350. It is an amazing drive experience!!!!,

Cheers,

Sergio

Scat01

I find two sets of info on these cars - see below, still showing the 300 gets the 3.0 liter, is this just incorrect reporting?

"The C-Class offers three engines, all with a seven-speed automatic transmission. The C250 has a 201-horsepower, turbocharged 1.8-liter four-cylinder with direct injection. The C300 with 4Matic all-wheel drive has a new 248-hp, 3.0-liter V-6, and the C350 has a 302-hp, 3.5-liter V-6 with direct injection. Both the C300 and C350 feature Mercedes' new start/stop fuel-saving technology"

I drove a bunch of the 2008-2009 cars prior to buying my 350, there is clearly a difference in performance, clearly...That said, the majority of 300's I drove were 4matic which seems to reduce the fun factor even further between the 2 models - If you do not need, do not get it...

I realize the 2013 comparison is not exactly the same, but I believe the variance in power is simliar, so I would recommend you buy the higher powered car, certainly if you do not need 4matic...

It depends what you want personally, but if you care about the "sport" in sport sedan, go 350, spend the money up front and forget about worrying about try to add power gains after the fact...good luck!

ddeliber

The 2013s both have 3.5s, I do want to know what the physical differences are. But factoring in the price I just don't understand why there is a c300 sport. Luxuries, sure, but not sports.

There are just too many whys though. I just must be missing something, there always seems to be a real reason why MB does things and I can't figure this one out.

spyked

I too don't understand WHY they offer the 300, and how the 300 is supposed to be less expensive. How does a software change affect pricing, assuming the 3.5 in the 300 and 3.5 in the 350 are the same (which they are AFAIK).

To add even more to the debate.....you CAN get a 350 with 4MATIC, as long as you want a coupe and not a sedan. So why not a 350 4MATIC sedan?

For U.S. customers, I guess MBUSA assumes 350 sedan buyers want driving dynamics (hence the RWD only) and they leave the 4MATIC option to middle of the series buyers.

I haven't driven the new DI six cylinders for more than a few miles, but they must be great. I didn't think the previous 3.0 was bad at all - it punched above it's weight for sure.

snowmuch

Are you from US or Canada? US 350 had bigger break disc than c300. Canada c350/300 both have c350 break disc.

The only difference I can see so far is the horse power. If you want more horsy then go with the 350

Samaral

I think the model choices depends also on the destination Market.
Here in Canada, the Coupe comes in c250(4 cyl.), c350 and C350 4matic. The sedans come as 250, 300 4matic, 350 and 350 4matic. Of course there are AMGs as Coupe and Sedan, but no 4Matic!!!
Sergio

Ps. There are no luxury version here in Canada for the C Class Sedan, only the sport version.

matt9

From what I heard(in Canada), the c300 4matic and c350 4matic are very similar, however, the c350 (4matic) comes with more standard options. The c300 is detuned and maybe some of the equipment might be a bit different.

However, to make them more comparable, you need to add the premium and sports package (at the very least) to the c300. However, even doing this, the c350 was 5-7k more than the c300. What do you get for the 5-7k, 50 more hp (on the same engine), maybe a couple more standard features. The 0-60 times for each were supposed to be almost the same (~6 seconds).

Maybe the question you want to ask is if its worth paying 5k-7k more for something you might not even notice. Especially if the car costs approximately the same, maybe Merc is just making $$$ on the c350 when the c300 is closer to cost?

xxGenericSNxx

1. Yes you're right. They are the same engine, only difference is a software tune. MB's been heading this direction as of late, the other two engines that are like this are the 450/550 engines for the 2013 MY. Both are 5.5L TT V8 engines with different software. If someone bought a tune for both the 450 and 550 from many reputable tuners, they net the same end horsepower- thus leading us to believe the engines are the exact same minus software.

The reason this is done is to save costs as apparently it's cheaper to make the same engines and just "dumb it down" for the cheaper model.

3. Yes 4Matic options are very odd. MBUSA used to offer a 4M 350 when this style C Class came out, then axed it shortly after. 4M 350s are available throughout the rest of the world. Another odd thing is that the C350 Coupe is available as a 4Matic- wouldn't there be a larger market for 4wd sedan owners than coupe owners?

4. I believe so, regard my response to 1. from above.





If I were in the market for a C- I'd just take a look at the 300 and get a tune to have even more power than a 350 (once tunes become available since this engine configuration is fairly new). One issue you may run into, as someone above alluded to, is warranty claims- but it really just depends how mod friendly and competent both you and your dealer are. (If you're not one to mod cars then obviously disregard this suggestion- but if you've always been a mod type of person then I don't see why not).

220S

Yes, both have the same V6 DI motor which is now the only V6 motor and is being used across models. (e.g., the C350 has the identical motor with identical specs as the E350.)

The mpg of the C350 is certified at 20/29. The C300 4matic is at 20/27. Because the C300 4matic weighs more than the RWD C350, the motor was no doubt detuned primarily to try to get better mpg certification. The curb weight of the C300 4matic is 3737 lbs and the C350 is 3616 lbs. With a fully tuned 3.5 motor the mpg would have been even worse. Also MB needs to differentiate the model differences while still being profitable and not building two different motors as was done in the past.

Performance-wise: C300: 248 hp and 251 lb ft torque. C350: 302 hp and 273 lb ft torque. The C350 is quicker than the E350 due to the weight difference between the C Class and E Class.

Other differences (for the USA market):

1) The C350 has the optional 17" AMG twin spoke wheels as standard (different than the twin split spoke C300 4matic sport wheels and the C300 4matic luxury model wheels.)

2) 4-way power lumbar driver seat is standard on the C350 only (optional on the other models.)

3) 10-way power driver seat with memory is standard on the C350 only (optional on the other models.)

4) Heated front seats are standard on the C350 only (optional on the other models.)

5) Split folding rear seats is standard on the C350 (optional on all the other models.)

6) HK Logic 7 sound system with SiriusXM is standard on the C350 (optional on all the other models.)

7) The MP3 media interface is standard on the C350 .

8) P1 is standard on the C350.

In addition, the differences between luxury and sport are:

C300 4matic and C350 sport version: firmer springs and shocks and lowered ride height; staggered width wheels and tires. C300 4matic luxury version does not have this.

Parktronic with the advanced parking guidance option is only available on the sport models (due to the bumper style of the non-sport models.)

The C300 4matic sport and the C350 sport both have the 3-spoke sport steering wheel (luxury has the 4 spoke.) Black ash trim is only available on the C350 Sport (although all the other trims are also available at no cost.) Sport cockpit styling on the sport C300 4matic and C350.

The new Driver Assistance Package option is not available for the non-sport C Class models (active lane keeping assist, active blind spot assist, and Distronic Plus with pre-safe braking, and pre-safe occupant protection system.)

Most of these model differences have to due to marketing various models against the competition in different global markets plus certification based on differing regulations. Certification per model costs big money and rules are different in different parts of the world. If it's too expensive to sell a model a certain way (or can't be done) then there will be compromises. That's really why models will differ in various global markets.

ddeliber

I have to tell you, this confuses me even further. I just went on MB's .ca website and voila there it is, first page for the C class 350s offered with 4Matic, exactly as you said. Price is about $7.7 k more then the C300 4Matic (also with P1 standard).

In other words, there is no technical reason why the 350 is not offered with a 4Matic in the USA. Hell, I thought that 4Matics were built specifically for North America (well mostly anyway). They don't even really stock RWD cars at most dealers here in MA. Nobody seems to want them and I suspect the same is true across the northern USA.

So MB believes that
-People will only want 4matics in the C300 as you can't get them without it -The sportiest version of the C-class lineup can not be ordered with 4Matic.
-Right across the border in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver (and everywhere else in the great white north as well of course) they are right there ready to be bought.

Does anyone have any idea why they would think this is a good strategy?

Then there is the engine... I can think of a lot of people that would be interested in 50 more HP on a C-class, especially within say a $1.5k difference in price (considering a C300 with P1 and 4Matic costs $2k on a C350 coupe). In fact, I would not be surprised if it would be very difficult to find someone that is not interested in this. Sure there are people that want a C300 without P1, and the price savings there, but I would hardly think that this would be a significant percentage.

I did find one difference in advertised literature on MBUsa.com between the two trims. Apparently the C300 4M supports flexible fuel as well as slightly larger brakes on the 350. Is this it? Are there an other differences between the 350 and the 300? Is there a cost differential on their end?

Here is the blurb about flexible fuel:
Runs On Ethanol/Gas Mixture With Up To 85 Percent Ethanol (Primary Fuel Economy With 100% Gasoline Is 20-City, 27-Highway and 22-Combined; Secondary Fuel Economy With 85% Ethanol Is 14-City, 20-Highway and 16-Combined) (Standard)

I didn't even know that this feature existed.

Personally. I am not really interested in a RWD C350 nor a de-tuned C300 4M, ESPECIALLY considering they have the same engine. To think of things in a slightly different way: I thought that MB wanted to draw some younger enthusiasts away from BMW. However, they don't offer a car that really competes with the 335i xDrive in probably the largest market (the USA) where they do business.

I really do hope I am wrong here. Someone please help me understand this.

220S

There are certification issues involved with every model imported to every market.

Why do you think that the coupe comes only with a glass roof in the USA and not in other markets? Certification not to have the panorama roof on the coupe was way too costly. MBUSA made a decision based on market share. btw, this was discussed at length on the AMG Private Lounge (the AMG development staff from NJ are on that forum; the BS C63 comes only with a heavy glass roof in the US and not in Europe.)

These things that may befuddle your personal logic are based on real world issues of market, profitability, and federal regulations.

ddeliber

Thanks for this, it does help in some ways, but I still am missing some things...

I got you here, this is what initially lead me to my initial questions.

I am not sure I follow here. Sure more weight will affect the mpg, but probably not as much as 4Matic. Furthermore, the E350 with the same engine is getting 19/29 and it weighs in at over 4000 lbs. Something else must be affecting the fuel efficiency of the C300 4M.

Aren't #s 2-7 pretty much P1?

Do the C300 4M sports really come with staggered wheels/tires? Granted this is not really significant to the thread, but I am curious.

Good stuff, thanks for this as I missed them when I was looking earlier.

&

I guess I am having trouble with this. It sounds like you are saying that the cost of certification of the trim level for a C350 4M makes it not worth offering this configuration. Isn't MB's best selling model the C-class? I don't think it is fair to compare a cost analysis for certifying 2 versions of a BS C63 with and without pano (how many of these did they build, 800ish?) with a full line model trim level. I would think that certification costs would be a drop in the bucket when compared to how much MB makes on them. However, what do I know here, I wasn't there when this stuff was worked out. Maybe they didn't think that they were going to sell many C350s in the states. It looks like they were wrong, as at least from what I have heard, the C350s are pretty popular this year.

I am 100% certain that MB has their reasons for what they offer and I am pretty skeptical that their engine tuning and 4Matic decisions are based on certification costs.

Bottom line here, these questions are noteworthy to me, and I think others as well. A C350 4M is an attractive combination especially because of the price comparison with the C300. A fully functional C300 4M also is attractive (and probably more so), however, its presence seems to make the C350 appear redundant.

Samaral

Maybe there is not sufficient market in the hole US to justify the import/certification of the 300 and 350 4matic. I don't know, but I can only especulate..... I know that here in Canada, 4matic it is almost mandatory if you want to use your car year around. The lack of 4matic would make MB loose a lot of sales, maybe in US this is not that critical.
I just would like to think that these decisions are not taken lightly from MB, after all it is a LOT of money involved....

Btw, just out of curiosity... Is it as problematic as it is here to by a car across the border? The dealers are really not happy when we do this here!!!
I know, because I have a 4Runner that I bought in US and every time I need something on the Dealer it is a battle!!! For example: they refuse to reprogram my computer to show the values in metric, instead of Imperial. Go figure!!!

snowmuch

I'm curious too, last time I was talking to a sales rep, I was asking why US have G65, sl65 etc while Canada don't. He freak out and says that its not cheaper to import those cars from the US.... I explain to him that I have no intention to import then he eases off...lol

xxGenericSNxx

US doesn't have the G65.

220S

btw, I used the BS as an example but the C-Class coupe (non-BS) only comes in panorama configuration in the US. When asked, the product managers from NJ replied that Daimler didn't want to go through the effort and costs to certify a non-pano coupe. Each model configuration has to be separately certified. Apparently the big hurdle for foreign manufacturers exporting both to the US and the ROW, is that the ROW falls under ECE regulations whereas the US is unique in that it falls under NHTSA which affects no other country but the US; ECE regulations are internationalized.

Cost of certification is expensive. Since the US continues to use a unique set of safety and emission regulations administered by NHTSA, (and which differ significantly from the internationalized ECE regulations used throughout the ROW) manufacturers face real considerable expense to certify a vehicle for U.S. sale. The product managers said the costs can be $2-4 million per vehicle model.

The C350 may seem popular, but sales figures in the US are for the C250 are higher than for the C350 (according to Ward's Auto Industry News.)

Whether something makes "sense" or not doesn't matter in the end. It is what it is.

jcpalinski

Hi I am new here, just bought my tihird MB, this time a 2013 C300. Reading this tread and reviewing the spec now I realized why I felt this C300 was more powerfull then the 2012 version.

Now, would someone know if MB or an independant mechanic would change the programming to gain the 50 hp the de-tunned on my C300. if the can do this, would this void the warranty ?

220S

Theoretically, yes. But legally it wouldn't affect other components if the tune is determined not to have created a warranty issue outside of a motor or motor related failure. In the US there is the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act to protect you.

A lot has to do with the relationship you have with your servicing dealership. But often when push comes to shove, MBUSA can get tough and argue that the tune violated the warranty and affected the overall reliability of the vehicle. It can be a risk on your part to tune a car still under warranty and it's why most people do not do modifications until the car is out of warranty.

You can attempt to de-tune the car before a service or at the very least before you need warranty work if your dealer is not mod friendly. But unfriendly dealers can flag your car and enter into the system that your car has been modified. Then every dealer (including MBUSA) knows the car has been modified and can reject warranty claims.

It's up to you to decide if it's worth any potential warranty claim issues that may come up down the road.

Cosworth2000

So many responses...this is a very active thread.

OK as the owner of a C350 4Matic I tested both 4Matics in both C300 and C350 before I bought my car. I also tested the C250 and the C300 in non 4Matics options.

My verdict.

C250 is Eco friendly car. People who really car about gas and budget
C300 are those that want more HP (like V6 engines) but do not want to spend the extra cost of the C350 options...It does not come standard with a roof or glass roof. Those are options.
C300 4Matic - those that want the extra traction
C350 More power and more base equipment like Panoramic glass Roof
C350 4Matic (Cold Countries Only) - More traction and smarter choice over the weaker C300 4Matic setup. All the options of the regular C350.

So here is my take. if you don't care about increased traction, buy the C300. If you want more power and base options buy the C350. If you want more power buy the C350 4Matic as the C300 4Matic engine is weaker to carry the 4Matic System, plus it uses more gas / power ratio. As you will see the 4Matic is offered for performance or additional traction and is always mated with the new C350 engine.

Hope this helps.

vols1

In Canada you can't get a 2013 C 300 with memory seat function as an add on or as part of an option package. I can't understand why a manufacturer would have power seats without a memory function. If you and your spouse ,for example both drive the vehicle it's a must. You have to go up to the c350.

matt9

This is why I said you should compare (in CANADA):

1. 2013 c300 4matic WITH premium/sports package
2. 2013 c350 4matic WITH no additional packages

These 2 are very similar cars. There might be some additional features that the c350 4matic has that the c300 4matic doesn't but since I cannot think of them off hand, maybe they are not THAT important. The price difference for these 2 is probably 5k (and the c350 consistently has worse financing rates).

The c350 may have 50 additional hp, but the 0-60 times are almost identical between them (notice I believe they don't even post the 0-60 time for the c300 in their brochure - probably because they don't want something like 0-60 6.3 on the c300 and 0-60 6.1 on the c350 and then try to convince people to pay 5k more). I also don't believe the only difference is an electronic tune. I also think the c350 comes with 18inch wheels with the AMG wheel option (additional cost). I don't know of any other part differences. I don't think the brakes for example are any different.

In Canada, AWD is very valued. If the c-class was ONLY in RWD for example, that would eliminate a lot of potential customers. That is probably why most people get 4matic in Canada.

Scat01

Nice try Matt. I have seen as slow as 7.1 for the 300 4matic and as quick as 5.9 for the 350 rwd, there is noticeable difference in the 2 for anyone who has driven both...it depends what you want, a sport sedan or a sedan with a bit of sportiness in it - cheers...

Samaral

+1

matt9

I believe I read somewhere the c300 was in the 6's.

Here is some more discussion:
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w204...-question.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...ic-0-60-a.html