Question about tuning boxes/tunes
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: Brea Ca
2013 C250
Question about tuning boxes/tunes
Hi guys! I got my first Benz a couple of months ago and I've been looking around since then for upgrades that won't hurt my pockets too much, but at the same time is safe and won't cause any problems to my car, like void the warranty. I've been looking for tunes to increase the power, and looking at my budget, I am torn between the BMS JB+ tune and the TMS tuning box. Can you guys help me out and point out some pros and cons? is it worth installing it in a 2013 C250 sedan? Also will I have any problems with my car? I've been researching around and people have been getting error codes and CEL. I'm fairly new with adding stuff to cars, so I just don't wanna have to go to the dealer and find out that I voided my warranty. Thank you and have a nice day!
Also anyone got info about the Race Chip ones? Any problems on those?
Also anyone got info about the Race Chip ones? Any problems on those?
Last edited by gel11; Mar 28, 2013 at 09:40 PM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,375
Likes: 16
From: Hong Kong
2010 C200 CGI
Do you mean the TMC tuning box? I've got one installed and I'll be doing dyno runs hopefully this weekend to see what differences it makes. I've had it installed for over a week now and no error lights whatsoever. The only Benz related error lights that I've come across have been from the BMS kit where they only adapt timing and fuel where as the TMC adapts inlet manifold, can sensor, boost and throttle sensors.
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: Brea Ca
2013 C250
Do you mean the TMC tuning box? I've got one installed and I'll be doing dyno runs hopefully this weekend to see what differences it makes. I've had it installed for over a week now and no error lights whatsoever. The only Benz related error lights that I've come across have been from the BMS kit where they only adapt timing and fuel where as the TMC adapts inlet manifold, can sensor, boost and throttle sensors.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,375
Likes: 16
From: Hong Kong
2010 C200 CGI
I never tried the BMS, I decided not to use BMS based on multiple factors including personal. As for the TMC, I can feel a noticeable increase in off the line tq as well as response time. I have not yet adjusted the preset yet, will do so on the dyno.
The TMC is more expensive but it controls more parameters and has a good track record with multiple platforms.
The TMC is more expensive but it controls more parameters and has a good track record with multiple platforms.
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: Brea Ca
2013 C250
I never tried the BMS, I decided not to use BMS based on multiple factors including personal. As for the TMC, I can feel a noticeable increase in off the line tq as well as response time. I have not yet adjusted the preset yet, will do so on the dyno.
The TMC is more expensive but it controls more parameters and has a good track record with multiple platforms.
The TMC is more expensive but it controls more parameters and has a good track record with multiple platforms.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,375
Likes: 16
From: Hong Kong
2010 C200 CGI
So bad news, it's almost sure my session will need to be postponed. The shop has a stranded GTR with no gearbox sitting on the rollers and supposedly the parts are supposed to come in tomorrow but they can't be sure. Hopefully I'll be able to get the car in by next week.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,331
Likes: 9
From: Delaware
2004 Mazda6, 1993 RX7
That is my experience when I developed more initial timing on the Classic Saab 900 turbos. What I did was adopted by vendors in their own way, but still use my method .... basically more static advance with a MSD BTM to slowly retard timing as boost rose.
Based on BMS dyno curves, you can clearly see thay have done nothing but change the boost map, which is what they admitted to me when I called them.
Many people like this for the bang for the buck.
.
Last edited by kevink2; Mar 29, 2013 at 06:49 PM.
Trending Topics
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,331
Likes: 9
From: Delaware
2004 Mazda6, 1993 RX7
Another horse in this race, but pricey:
The Kleeman Numbers for a C250
250-K1: K-Box. Up to 245 HP and 372 Nm (276 lb-ft) of torque.
250-K2: K1 + a stainless steel exhaust downpipe with sport cat and a hiflow air filter.
Up to 255 HP and 385 Nm (285 lb-ft) of torque.
If these are legit est'd numbers at the flywheel, and hp is peak value, the gains could be +34 hp and +56 ft-lbs.
OEM = 221 hp, 229 ft-lbs
.
The Kleeman Numbers for a C250
250-K1: K-Box. Up to 245 HP and 372 Nm (276 lb-ft) of torque.
250-K2: K1 + a stainless steel exhaust downpipe with sport cat and a hiflow air filter.
Up to 255 HP and 385 Nm (285 lb-ft) of torque.
If these are legit est'd numbers at the flywheel, and hp is peak value, the gains could be +34 hp and +56 ft-lbs.
OEM = 221 hp, 229 ft-lbs
.
MB World Stories
The Best of Mercedes & AMG
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Verdad Gallardo
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction
Verdad Gallardo
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
5 Underrated Mercedes-Benz Models That Don't Get the Love They Deserve
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes 300D Has Pushed Well Past 1 Million Miles and It Ain't Stopping
Verdad Gallardo
10 Most Reliable Mercedes-Benz Models You Can Buy Used
Verdad Gallardo
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: Brea Ca
2013 C250
Another horse in this race, but pricey:
The Kleeman Numbers for a C250
250-K1: K-Box. Up to 245 HP and 372 Nm (276 lb-ft) of torque.
250-K2: K1 + a stainless steel exhaust downpipe with sport cat and a hiflow air filter.
Up to 255 HP and 385 Nm (285 lb-ft) of torque.
If these are legit est'd numbers at the flywheel, and hp is peak value, the gains could be +34 hp and +56 ft-lbs.
OEM = 221 hp, 229 ft-lbs
.
The Kleeman Numbers for a C250
250-K1: K-Box. Up to 245 HP and 372 Nm (276 lb-ft) of torque.
250-K2: K1 + a stainless steel exhaust downpipe with sport cat and a hiflow air filter.
Up to 255 HP and 385 Nm (285 lb-ft) of torque.
If these are legit est'd numbers at the flywheel, and hp is peak value, the gains could be +34 hp and +56 ft-lbs.
OEM = 221 hp, 229 ft-lbs
.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,375
Likes: 16
From: Hong Kong
2010 C200 CGI
If you are talking about the "juice box" I have to disagree, politely as possible. I wish the BMS altered timing and fuel, as that is how you eliminate engine lag when you are starting from a stop.
That is my experience when I developed more initial timing on the Classic Saab 900 turbos. What I did was adopted by vendors in their own way, but still use my method .... basically more static advance with a MSD BTM to slowly retard timing as boost rose.
Based on BMS dyno curves, you can clearly see thay have done nothing but change the boost map, which is what they admitted to me when I called them.
Many people like this for the bang for the buck.
.
That is my experience when I developed more initial timing on the Classic Saab 900 turbos. What I did was adopted by vendors in their own way, but still use my method .... basically more static advance with a MSD BTM to slowly retard timing as boost rose.
Based on BMS dyno curves, you can clearly see thay have done nothing but change the boost map, which is what they admitted to me when I called them.
Many people like this for the bang for the buck.
.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,331
Likes: 9
From: Delaware
2004 Mazda6, 1993 RX7
Also worked on a Mazarati Bi-Turbo, whose APC boost control was identical to the saab, and likely under licence to Saab.
I reverse engineered the Rx7 twin sequential turbos control system. Here there was a map for the MAX boost at each rpm. Aftermarket ecu's would raise this limit map and raise the target boost per rpm. Again, no fuel, no timing.
The only time timing comes in is when a non-turbo knocks and timing is retarded ..... still no fuel variable.
.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,375
Likes: 16
From: Hong Kong
2010 C200 CGI
As I understood it, when you raise boost one should at the same time modify the timing and fuel maps to ensure a safe usage of the new boost pressure. Of course this is only speaking from my subaru days when we did a full reflash that modified the parameters across the board.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,331
Likes: 9
From: Delaware
2004 Mazda6, 1993 RX7
With the 93 Rx7, with speed-density fuel control (no mass meter) , the maps were pig rich near stock boost limits, so when mod'd chips were installed, the extra rich condition was over done. I had lined up a techtom dealer to reduce fuel, but they closed shop. I'm back to the stock ecu, rather than the excessively rich 10:1 mod'd ecu.
BUT, I agree with you that not having timing to modify really hurts when dialing in power, esp at the very low end for those starts from a stop. And, if the fuel mapping is near the lean side, I can see adding more fuel than the ecu would make up via the Mass Meter.
.
BUT, I agree with you that not having timing to modify really hurts when dialing in power, esp at the very low end for those starts from a stop. And, if the fuel mapping is near the lean side, I can see adding more fuel than the ecu would make up via the Mass Meter.
.
Last edited by kevink2; Apr 2, 2013 at 01:39 PM. Reason: "BUT ....."
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,375
Likes: 16
From: Hong Kong
2010 C200 CGI
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,331
Likes: 9
From: Delaware
2004 Mazda6, 1993 RX7
Knightmare says it throws overboost codes, which you would have to see if that is still an issue. I've read many positive reports.
www.burgertuning.com/mercedes_benz_c250
Notice that the peak hp is not changed much at all, and just ignore the +23 hp callout.
.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,375
Likes: 16
From: Hong Kong
2010 C200 CGI
Yes, both the JB and the TMC just work by intercepting signals and modifying them, once you disconnect the units your car reverts back to the OEM "tune". I think I asked Kevink2 in another thread about this, I'm not sure how fast it reverts back given that our ECU's are adaptive so not sure if the ECU adapts to the new "tune" in a manner that allows it to linger even after you disconnect the unit.
As for the overboost mentioned, there was a thread about it though I can't seem to find it now which is weird.
As for the overboost mentioned, there was a thread about it though I can't seem to find it now which is weird.
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: Brea Ca
2013 C250
Yes, both the JB and the TMC just work by intercepting signals and modifying them, once you disconnect the units your car reverts back to the OEM "tune". I think I asked Kevink2 in another thread about this, I'm not sure how fast it reverts back given that our ECU's are adaptive so not sure if the ECU adapts to the new "tune" in a manner that allows it to linger even after you disconnect the unit.
As for the overboost mentioned, there was a thread about it though I can't seem to find it now which is weird.
As for the overboost mentioned, there was a thread about it though I can't seem to find it now which is weird.
did you get you car dyno'd yet?
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,375
Likes: 16
From: Hong Kong
2010 C200 CGI
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,056
Likes: 47
From: Orlando, Florida
E350 Sport/ML350RWD
Might be fun to run a tank when my tune is installed.
