Glyn M Ruck

Yes, When one sees it in the flesh with the shaped & contoured rear of the screen to where it attached to the dash I find it fine. In fact in the CLA 45 I drove it seemed particularly appropriate.

CisternaChyli

it has been a common complaint, but i honestly think it looks fine once you sit in the car and actually see it.

Glyn M Ruck

Most of the negative comment seems to come from the US. I think the only point that needs to be made is that global markets are not "just like the US". An erroneous comment I have heard too often in my career. What works well in the US does not translate well into other markets & vice versa. e.g. what Sam Walton & Jack Welch did does not translate in China. In China you do things the Chinese way or fail. The reason that Unilever has been a lot more successful in that market than Proctor & Gamble as an example.

Mr_Clifton

As an 32 yr old American, people from my generation were (until fairly recently) convinced that Benzes are old people cars. Like the W126 I had for example. I loved that car, definitely had a classic look to it and it was fun to drive. Most everyone thought it was a boat car and was picturing an old person with coke bottle glasses hunched over the steering wheel

So I think an earlier comment was correct, folks here in the US prefer a sporty look rather than something classic. I can't count the number of times people have asked me "ugh, why'd you get that? I'd have gotten a BMW". BMWs seem to be regarded as a sporty car, but to me they are super ugly; I'd rather drive a smart car than a BMW

Sportstick

Well then, as a couple of "seasoned" market researchers, we can wrap this interesting discussion thread up with one comprehensive, all-encompassing, highly reliable, carefully structured survey question.......(wait for it....)

Mostly Americans complain about the screen because:

A) They are more honest
B) They have better taste
C) They already have a few loose iPads at home
D) Everything else is going so perfectly well, they have the available time
E) All of the above
F) There is no good explanation for what Americans do

By the way, the respondent sample will be 100% Canadian, as they will be too polite to choose "F" AND "none of the above" is not a valid response!!


(For anyone just joining, this is the obligatory "just kidding" message - comic relief, not starting an international incident here!)

Glyn M Ruck

They are different, All nationalities are different.

"Normal" is location/demographic dependent. Normal for that location/demographic.

Thank heavens we are not all the same.

alsyli

I'm 35, so not much older. What's interesting is that, even though I think this is true, MB were/are also very aspirational. When I got my W204, one guy who drives a BMW 3-series was like, "Wow! Nice car!" and looked a bit jealous.... Even though he drives a car in the same class. Some other acquaintances also made a huge fuss over the car and was like, "Wow, now you've 'made' it!" Rather odd, b/c none of those people drive an MB, and I don't necessarily think they *want* to drive an MB (b/c they could certainly afford it, if they wanted).

But, for whatever reason, there is a certain mystique to the brand, even for those who have the ability to buy one. ::shrug:: I don't think lower priced MBs will necessarily ruin the brand's rep, as long as the S-class/SL/whatever MB priced > $90000 remains class-leading....

Germancar1

You're missing the point, they sold everyone they built, but they didn't build that many and it wasn't enough to make it worth while. There is no way to re-word it or re-think it, the demand isn't there from Mercedes buyers. I would bet a quick search of the net would reveal that the take rate for manuals at Cadillac is nill, only BMW and Audi can sell them in any meaningful numbers. A Mercedes isn't the type of car for a manual, never has been.

M

Sportstick

We have gone off on a bit of a tangent from the original discussion of what constitutes "sportiness" to the manual trans take rates. And, actually, I understood your point; I just did not find it persuasive. First, I merely rebutted your quote:

"Not of enough buyers purchased them when Mercedes offered them"

In fact, when MB offered them, more than enough buyers tried to buy them. They had a stock-out; buyers who wanted them could not find them across the country. The exact volume of the underbuild will never be certain, but MBUSA claims they had a 3% mix, and the segment demand runs closer to 5%, so they had some missed opportunity, per year within a platform cycle, perhaps 1,000 - 1,500 units, roughly $7 - $11 million of margin. One can easily make money on a 5% take rate, especially if the volume is incremental, IF AND ONLY IF, the offsetting costs do not overwhelm the profitability...more about that below.

Once Cadillac ATS is out a bit longer, we will know how the take rate is running there. But, before Bob Lutz departed GM, he made the point that the stick was not being offered in CTS (at that time) to sell in volume. It was there to make a point about the nature and character of the car. Search YouTube for "Power of a Firm Handshake" and watch the ad.

In terms of making it worthwhile, the financial analysis I posted earlier in this thread is quite realistic, I can assure you. Some speculation is needed to assess what the offsetting factors were which removed this choice solely for North American MB vehicles. Based on a career in this business, I believe it is most likely plant facilitization and powertrain complexity costs, as certification costs are easily and quickly offset by minimal incremental volume.

As for stating the MB brand is not the kind of car for a manual and never has been, that is a very North American and recent history-centric point of view. (And, apparently, MBUSA disagrees in regard to the SLK). Although we all recognize the manual take rate is declining, for a portion of buyers, your assertion is simply wrong. MB is the type of car for whatever the market wishes it to be. The MB market is a collection of niches....those who demand leather vs. those who accept MB Tex, those who want panoramic roofs vs. those who want no sunroof at all. Is MB also not the kind of car for vinyl seats and a solid steel roof?

Each decision creates a level of manageable product complexity and profitability. So, we must revert to the business case to determine the wisdom of 100% automatic transmissions vs. satisfying the niche, but without the MB internal financials, we can go no further except to deduce they somehow found it unprofitable. So be it, but each decision has a cost. And, as they make their cars decreasingly driver-oriented and increasingly autonomous, they also increasingly lose whatever hold they still have on a brand image component of "sportiness" vs where Audi, BMW, and Cadillac either still are, or are heading, which is where I believe our discussion began.

Based on the internal research MBUSA has been doing on consumer-perceived "brand age", it is clear this concerns them. They are trying through advertising to mitigate this problem. Have you seen the C300 power-sliding across a beach, and the C250 supposedly revving and roaring its way across mid-town Manhattan? Those ads with those specific creative executions were created to achieve a heretofore unmet objective. But, the product actions they are simultaneously taking do not appear helpful if they wish to move in the "sporty" direction. If they can achieve synchronization between the Product Planners and Marketers, they are probably better off simply aiming for their "Best Engineered" pinnacle, with proof points of comfort, luxury, refinement and safety, and give up the pretense of youthful sportiness.

Your thoughts?

Pete7874

I think you're oversimplifying this. It has already been noted in this thread that majority of new MB sales in the US are from existing dealer inventory, and as we know, there were very few manuals available in this dealer inventory. So, if a potential buyer wanted a manual C-Class, he would have had to order it and wait 2-3 months to get it. But this is the US - the land of instant gratification. Most people just don't want to wait that long, so they either settle for an automatic C-Class or just buy something different altogether. But that does not mean that the demand isn't there, IMO.

If you're talking about the ATS, then the manual is only offered with the 2.0T engine. That engine isn't all that great from what I've read. Possibly there are some customers out there who would like a manual trans ATS, but want it with a better engine - the 3.6 V6. So, if they really want an ATS, they've got to decide - manual with an inferior engine, or nice engine but with a slushbox. To me, both of these options suck. Shame on you Cadillac.

Germancar1

The one thing you guys keep overlooking is the simple fact that if the market wanted manuals, Mercedes would offer them. Nothing either you have said changes this.

Why isn't there a movement to force MBUSA to offer manuals here then?

I already pointed out that the SLK is offered with a manual, to a person who said that MBUSA offered no manuals, so I knew that. Problem is my assertion isn't wrong if you're in the same sentence saying that the manual take rate is declining. That is what I've just said here all along. Uh we're in North America so that is of course the point of view I'm taking here. Yeah there is a portion of customers who want a diesel 4Matic C-Class wagon too, problem is there aren't enough of them in the eyes of MBUSA. That is my whole point. If there is a huge demand for manuals (which there isn't by actual buyers) then MB would offer them here. Every salesman I've ever spoken too on the subject says that a manual Benz is pretty much a showroom anchor.

M

Sportstick

And the point I am trying (although apparently not very well!) to communicate is the "enough" is defined by financial matters, not at the precursor step of just raw volumes. In this case, the finances are likely facing the uphill battle of plant powertrain complexity, as one can easily make money on a 5% take rate on incremental volume vehicles if only certification is needed. There is no HUGE demand for Designo editions, but those are offered. They just have a much lower offsetting investment to overcome to be profitable. HUGE demand is not a prerequirement for a luxury product. In fact, personalization is the increasing trend for upscale brands who realize that "the market" is not a monolith, but a collection of niches to be intelligently assembled into a brand proposition.

Finally, your anecdotal evidence of a few salesperson conversations does not outweigh a national sample database. The inventory the US dealer body had had stocked out, so your salespeople were somehow out of the loop, the risk of casual surveying.The segment free demand is approximately 5%. Other brands have found a way to satisfy that demand within their business plans. MB has decided otherwise.

BUT THIS IS ALL BESIDES THE POINT!!

You have still gone in a different direction than the original issue. MB cars are getting less and less attractive to driving enthusiasts. They are focusing more on autonomous features and the superficiality of design....fine...there is a market for that. But, unless someone here thinks red seat belts makes a car "sporty", the brand is feeding the "old" image they simultaneously wish to abandon. And, they know it, and are trying to figure out how to market around it.

Glyn M Ruck

It could be said that resistance to change is, in fact, a hangback to the past rather than embracing the future. Dynosaurs like Clarkson have difficulty embracing the future. I challenge anybody to go and drive a new Golf 7 with DCT & tell me that that is not more fun than any manual transmission. Present takeup rate in SA = 73%

Sportstick

My left leg and right hand beg to differ.

Autonomous cars are the further-out future, per no less than MB! Imagine how much fun it will be when you just sit down, program a destination, and just sit there and watch. No need to think much or know much about driving. At that point, we're about as useful as Air France pilots on an Airbus.

Eau_Rouge

Automatics are BORING and DCT's are good around the track. Around the city, you'll likely put it in auto which makes the car BORING to drive.

I'm an enthusiast and I get a certain satisfaction from driving a manual that can't be achieved with an auto trans. Thankfully for me, BMW and now Cadillac with the ATS still make cars that suit my needs.

Edit to say that I've driven a BMW 135i DCT and that's exactly what happened to me. The owner and also a self proclaimed enthusiast, has also found himself driving in auto mode more often than not.

Glyn M Ruck

Go and drive a Golf 7 DCT. It is a lot better than the BMW system. I love it, especially in town.

Vic in Wisc

I've a 2011 C 300 4matic (and an '86 911 Cab) and I LOVE driving my wife's '12 VW GTI.It's a real hoot.In ref to the Airbus guys I've two WW2 airplanes that are ALL manual and I still love the DSG gearbox and can't wait to drive the Mk 7. Just try one...

Pete7874

Is the DCT in Mk7 a lot different than the DCT in Mk6? I drove the Mk6 one with DCT and to be honest, I was not impressed at all. I would take stick over this DCT any day of the week.

Glyn M Ruck

Yes ~ The Golf 7 is a huge improvement over previous efforts. It reacts immediately to driver inputs and always seems to get everything right & nothing wrong. There is simply nothing dimwitted about it. I rate it as the finest implementation of the technology in a standard road car, of course along with the Porsche PDK.

And this from somebody who has never liked VW cars. In the words of a local motoring scribe. "Golf 7 DCT is an irritatingly/annoyingly good car"

You know ~ like Sebastian Vettel is an annoyingly good F1 driver.

Germancar1

Really man? LOL, you seem a little lost. Designo is offered because it is huge profit vs a regular Mercedes. They're charging thousands for what is a leather, paint and wood upgrade. There is no extra profit in offering a manual on a car that they can't sell it on.

Let me put it another way. There is little to NO demand for a manual Mercedes.

Mercedes' were never serious drivers cars outside of the AMG models. If you want a more driver focused car you'll have to get an AMG. I really don't get what you're going on about at this point. A Mercedes was never a serious drivers car, they've always leaned towards luxury.

M

Doa

yea but that VW golf is so damn ugly and boring visually

Sportstick

No not lost, except to figure out how to explain this to someone who hasn't worked in the auto industry for 30 years. I guess it's my past teaching experience that I haven't given up before now. Last try:

1. The profit comes not from the transmission but from avoiding volume decrement, and associated vehicle margin, for manual buyers. (Side note: manual transmissions typically have higher variable cost than do automatics, so profitability does favor standardizing automatics for lower cost and higher revenue as a priceable feature in the pricing roll up.) I used Designo as an example of a profitable low volume item, with tremendous APEI complexity, although the point apparently was not clear.
2. 5% is adequate vehicle volume to offset most costs (including N.A. certification) and be reasonably profitable, but possibly not versus plant facilitization issues. 5% is accurate demand. "NO" is not. At a 3% build, they stocked out and left unmet demand in the market.
3. But, back to the original and key point, MBUSA thinks they are making "serious drivers cars", witness their C Class marketing/advertising strategies. The fallacy of their premise was the earlier point you actually contested with finding "sportiness" in larger, all automatic cars C Class cars. That is how this discussion started and was the primary point before the manual trans tangent became dominant. I'm glad we are back to the original topic that MBs (other than AMG) are even less and less sporty/serious driver's cars. It seems we finally found some agreement.

And with this, I've done my best. Have a good day.

Glyn M Ruck

I agree. BUT, The whole trick lies in the software. The A 45 & CLA 45 software is getting pretty good in it's first generation. Golf 7 is an evolutionary design because VW is **** scared of changing a winner. When Benz achieves VW's software level their's will be as good. Anybody can build the DCT hardware. If Benz forget their built-in latency to provide what they see as a refined performance & learn from VW as to what clients want they will have a winner. Benz has to stop being so conservative.

Benz builds latency into everything including the HVAC controller. They need to stop this. Their customers have spoken.

My CLK has a 722.9 with software that approaches being over sensitive to kick down. A minor prod of the throttle can lead to instantaneous multi gear kick down. Benz knows what SA likes. They must use this software elsewhere. E.G. US W204 inless it ruins their CAFE homologation which is not a consideration in SA. Here they only have to worry about g of co2/Km & the tax implication which is minor.

Glyn M Ruck

If I was MBUSA I would offer the crap MT for the few that want it. It shuts up the naysayers. Good for the brand.

If I was on a complexity reduction drive I would kill it. I almost guarantee it would not affect one ounce of profit in the low margin US market. From a margin perspective the US market sucks big time for most things ~ especially imported Benz product with decent plastics etc. etc. vs. rubbish local production. Through contacts at the East London plant I know how little margin a W204 generates in the US. It is pathetic.

Even the Shanghai GM plant that we supply has fixed up all the awful US plasticware production in a Buick. It is far better than a car built from US parts supply.

Pete7874

That's probably why they're moving the production to Alabama. Alas, the quality of plastics might roll even further downhill...