New C-Class ~ Official W205
#101
MBWorld Fanatic!
my general feeling about the W205 vs the W204 is that i'm very disappointed. the W205 is not C class worthy.
horrible screen, horrible engine list to pick out, on average about 10 000 euro more expensive then the W204, downgrade in exterior looks,...
horrible screen, horrible engine list to pick out, on average about 10 000 euro more expensive then the W204, downgrade in exterior looks,...
#102
WOW!!!!! i LOVE that lighter color of wood. I've never seen that shade of wood before in a c class. I also like how the wood is more symmetrical (left, center, right), vs the current wood scheme which is a little unbalanced (passenger has wood above glove box across dash, but it stops at the center console)
Last edited by djejglk; 12-19-2013 at 09:47 AM.
#103
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My opinion is that the w205 will sell very well. The exterior is much more inline with "Mercedes" expectations. It seems to offer quite a bit in terms of options which is great. I love my face lift 350 and prefer the more aggressive exterior, but I appreciate what the next generation brings to the table.
#104
Super Moderator
+1^ ~ Sportstick wondered what the A Class & CLA driver would upgrade to. Benz seems to be thinking about that. Apparently B Class will cast off it's people carrier image to fill this perceived gap & CLK will return. W205 Wagon & Coupe renderings are on the W205 forum.
#105
MBWorld Fanatic!
+1^ ~ Sportstick wondered what the A Class & CLA driver would upgrade to. Benz seems to be thinking about that. Apparently B Class will cast off it's people carrier image to fill this perceived gap & CLK will return. W205 Wagon & Coupe renderings are on the W205 forum.
Here's my point. For those who like and buy CLA, it seems to be generally regarded as a swoopy/sexy four-door, at an entry size and price point. When they need to move up due to life cycle requirements, giving up two doors will not be the typical answer, just as the need for more usable space creeps into their buying equation. A car the size and price of a C Class would make sense, except, here is the potential disconnect. They enter the brand with "swoopy/sexy" and are expected to move up to what another poster earlier called a "staid gentlemen's car"? While MB is making a smooth transition from C to E to S, the shift from a CLA to the new C is a noticeable change in imagery positioning.
On the other hand, if the C Class was more consistent with the CLA to CLS step as an intermediate position, that would be a more likely move-up path. Or, if the CLA was also a "staid gentlemen's car" at that smaller size and price point for those whose tastes run in that direction, it would also make for a more logical showroom progression. As it now stands, MB is enticing new buyers into the showroom with "hot fudge" and then expecting them to move up to "vanilla". I expect CLA will have one of the highest defection rates in the showroom.
#106
Super Moderator
The A Class was not a sedan in the conventional sense ~ it was a mini people carrier. Benz completely redesigned it to the new A range. A Hatch & CLA.
The present B Class is like an old A Class on steroids. Future intention B Hatch & "CLB" 4 door sedan or whatever they choose to call it. This will bridge the gap from CLA to C Class when people finally grow up/mature.
New small MPV to join Viano MPV & Vito MPV.
New CLK.
I of course can't predict what MBUSA will cherry pick out of the intented new range.
The present B Class is like an old A Class on steroids. Future intention B Hatch & "CLB" 4 door sedan or whatever they choose to call it. This will bridge the gap from CLA to C Class when people finally grow up/mature.
New small MPV to join Viano MPV & Vito MPV.
New CLK.
I of course can't predict what MBUSA will cherry pick out of the intented new range.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 12-19-2013 at 09:18 PM.
#107
MBWorld Fanatic!
The A Class was not a sedan ~ it was a mini people carrier. Benz completely redesigned it to the new A range. A Hatch & CLA
B Class is like an old A Class on steriods. Future intention B Hatch & "CLB" 4 door sedan or whatever they choose to call it. This will bridge the gap to C Class when people finally grow up/mature.
New small MPV to join Viano MPV & Vito MPV
New CLK
B Class is like an old A Class on steriods. Future intention B Hatch & "CLB" 4 door sedan or whatever they choose to call it. This will bridge the gap to C Class when people finally grow up/mature.
New small MPV to join Viano MPV & Vito MPV
New CLK
Laughed at the comment at "grow up/mature"! Tastes, attitudes, and values don't shift much over a lifetime. Lots of data to support that. Life cycle stages create different requirements for space/size, but the basic preferences for image/design are fairly consistent. Some folks are born "old" and like traditional/conservative design early on and into their dotage. MB now has their sights set on them with C-E-S.
Others who aspire to more expressive/sporty products also carry that into their senior years and find vehicles sized as needed, but with the imagery they desire. This concept confounded the US industry for years, when GM thought that eventually young Baby Boomers of the 60s/70s would "grow up" and want a traditional Cadillac....they didn't understand the psychology of the buyers. This is also the basis of the CLA---> C Class disconnect. Most attempts to get folks to make kind of switch don't work very well. How many CLS owners come back for a S Class? Not many...it's a schism which doesn't get bridged often.
#108
Super Moderator
Sorry. Research in ROW shows that people do grow up & taste changes. Your findings might be typical US.
In ROW cars are like good wines. Tastes mature over time & with experience & size of the bank balance.
US experience might be driven by the good things in life being experienced at a younger age.
In ROW cars are like good wines. Tastes mature over time & with experience & size of the bank balance.
US experience might be driven by the good things in life being experienced at a younger age.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 12-19-2013 at 09:36 PM.
#109
MBWorld Fanatic!
I would be interested in knowing your source to the contrary to learn more about its basis.
#110
Super Moderator
My source is major OEM's that I have worked with over the years. We even used to swap out staff on occasions for research.
One could postulate that, that flawed research might be why the US big three automakers have made so many inappropriate for market vehicles allowing the Japanese etc. to knock the stuffing out of them over many years.
One could postulate that, that flawed research might be why the US big three automakers have made so many inappropriate for market vehicles allowing the Japanese etc. to knock the stuffing out of them over many years.
#111
MBWorld Fanatic!
My source is major OEM's that I have worked with over the years. We even used to swap out staff on occasions for research.
One could postulate that, that flawed research might be why the US big three automakers have made so many inappropriate for market vehicles allowing the Japanese etc. to knock the stuffing out of them over many years.
One could postulate that, that flawed research might be why the US big three automakers have made so many inappropriate for market vehicles allowing the Japanese etc. to knock the stuffing out of them over many years.
#112
Super Moderator
Without doubt so called conventional wisdom has been severely flawed & large Corporations suffer it in spades.
The segmentation etc. that I am accustomed to follows geographic, demographic & a psychographic approach.
As a researcher I'm quite sure you understand that one needs to segment, segment & segment again in all disciplines to get to the truth & identify/predict market drivers.
An Australian colleague, Ray Buschmann (who now runs his own innovation company) and I, in the process orientated world of the supermajor oil company, developed the segmentation process (STRATMAPP) & maintained it's currency until recently that is used by the company that I still consult to. It is highly regarded by the likes of Kline, Enerfinance, IBM Consulting, McKinsey, Landor Associates, Wirthlin/HI Europe etc. etc. & OEM's that it was confidentially shared with & used by.
Findings have been that there is nothing unusual about a little Glyn Ruck that started his automotive life driving 7 noisy, snorty, rorty but dynamic Alfa Romeo's with stage 3 cams & ever larger Weber DCOE range sidedraft carburettors & migrated with maturity to something more refined like the products of Daimler Benz.
In my early life I was happy to drive 1400 Km's to view a F1 race at Kyalami in one of my Alfa's. Today I want to do the same trip in something more relaxing & refined like a Benz. While I still thoroughly enjoy a short blast in a Boxster S or whatever I would not wish to drive that sort of car every day even if somebody draped a 4 door saloon body over that fine chassis. The noise, vibration, endless steering kickback & general lack of comfort would drive me nuts. All positives if you want to toss a car around a race circuit.
The segmentation etc. that I am accustomed to follows geographic, demographic & a psychographic approach.
As a researcher I'm quite sure you understand that one needs to segment, segment & segment again in all disciplines to get to the truth & identify/predict market drivers.
An Australian colleague, Ray Buschmann (who now runs his own innovation company) and I, in the process orientated world of the supermajor oil company, developed the segmentation process (STRATMAPP) & maintained it's currency until recently that is used by the company that I still consult to. It is highly regarded by the likes of Kline, Enerfinance, IBM Consulting, McKinsey, Landor Associates, Wirthlin/HI Europe etc. etc. & OEM's that it was confidentially shared with & used by.
Findings have been that there is nothing unusual about a little Glyn Ruck that started his automotive life driving 7 noisy, snorty, rorty but dynamic Alfa Romeo's with stage 3 cams & ever larger Weber DCOE range sidedraft carburettors & migrated with maturity to something more refined like the products of Daimler Benz.
In my early life I was happy to drive 1400 Km's to view a F1 race at Kyalami in one of my Alfa's. Today I want to do the same trip in something more relaxing & refined like a Benz. While I still thoroughly enjoy a short blast in a Boxster S or whatever I would not wish to drive that sort of car every day even if somebody draped a 4 door saloon body over that fine chassis. The noise, vibration, endless steering kickback & general lack of comfort would drive me nuts. All positives if you want to toss a car around a race circuit.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 12-20-2013 at 07:38 AM.
#113
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Findings have been that there is nothing unusual about a little Glyn Ruck that started his automotive life driving 7 noisy, snorty, rorty but dynamic Alfa Romeo's with stage 3 cams & ever larger Weber DCOE range sidedraft carburettors & migrated with maturity to something more refined like the products of Daimler Benz.
In my early life I was happy to drive 1400 Km's to view a F1 race at Kyalami in one of my Alfa's. Today I want to do the same trip in something more relaxing & refined like a Benz. While I still thoroughly enjoy a short blast in a Boxster S or whatever I would not wish to drive that sort of car every day even if somebody draped a 4 door saloon body over that fine chassis. The noise, vibration, endless steering kickback & general lack of comfort would drive me nuts. All positives if you want to toss a car around a race circuit.
In my early life I was happy to drive 1400 Km's to view a F1 race at Kyalami in one of my Alfa's. Today I want to do the same trip in something more relaxing & refined like a Benz. While I still thoroughly enjoy a short blast in a Boxster S or whatever I would not wish to drive that sort of car every day even if somebody draped a 4 door saloon body over that fine chassis. The noise, vibration, endless steering kickback & general lack of comfort would drive me nuts. All positives if you want to toss a car around a race circuit.
+1 I lusted over a Porsche 911for years (thought that they fit me like the proverbial glove). I remember the day that I drove one where my finances and cost of the car were in alignment. (some years after driving a Mustang and a couple of 914's and MR2). When I got back into my 190E and thought why would I spend more for that loud, rough riding relatively unrefined piece when I can have this for half the cost.
#114
MBWorld Fanatic!
Without doubt so called conventional wisdom has been severely flawed & large Corporations suffer it in spades.
The segmentation etc. that I am accustomed to follows geographic, demographic & a psychographic approach.
As a researcher I'm quite sure you understand that one needs to segment, segment & segment again in all disciplines to get to the truth & identify/predict market drivers.
An Australian colleague, Ray Buschmann (who now runs his own innovation company) and I, in the process orientated world of the supermajor oil company, developed the segmentation process (STRATMAPP) & maintained it's currency until recently that is used by the company that I still consult to. It is highly regarded by the likes of Kline, Enerfinance, IBM Consulting, McKinsey, Landor Associates, Wirthlin/HI Europe etc. etc. & OEM's that it was confidentially shared with & used by.
Findings have been that there is nothing unusual about a little Glyn Ruck that started his automotive life driving 7 noisy, snorty, rorty but dynamic Alfa Romeo's with stage 3 cams & ever larger Weber DCOE range sidedraft carburettors & migrated with maturity to something more refined like the products of Daimler Benz.
In my early life I was happy to drive 1400 Km's to view a F1 race at Kyalami in one of my Alfa's. Today I want to do the same trip in something more relaxing & refined like a Benz. While I still thoroughly enjoy a short blast in a Boxster S or whatever I would not wish to drive that sort of car every day even if somebody draped a 4 door saloon body over that fine chassis. The noise, vibration, endless steering kickback & general lack of comfort would drive me nuts. All positives if you want to toss a car around a race circuit.
The segmentation etc. that I am accustomed to follows geographic, demographic & a psychographic approach.
As a researcher I'm quite sure you understand that one needs to segment, segment & segment again in all disciplines to get to the truth & identify/predict market drivers.
An Australian colleague, Ray Buschmann (who now runs his own innovation company) and I, in the process orientated world of the supermajor oil company, developed the segmentation process (STRATMAPP) & maintained it's currency until recently that is used by the company that I still consult to. It is highly regarded by the likes of Kline, Enerfinance, IBM Consulting, McKinsey, Landor Associates, Wirthlin/HI Europe etc. etc. & OEM's that it was confidentially shared with & used by.
Findings have been that there is nothing unusual about a little Glyn Ruck that started his automotive life driving 7 noisy, snorty, rorty but dynamic Alfa Romeo's with stage 3 cams & ever larger Weber DCOE range sidedraft carburettors & migrated with maturity to something more refined like the products of Daimler Benz.
In my early life I was happy to drive 1400 Km's to view a F1 race at Kyalami in one of my Alfa's. Today I want to do the same trip in something more relaxing & refined like a Benz. While I still thoroughly enjoy a short blast in a Boxster S or whatever I would not wish to drive that sort of car every day even if somebody draped a 4 door saloon body over that fine chassis. The noise, vibration, endless steering kickback & general lack of comfort would drive me nuts. All positives if you want to toss a car around a race circuit.
+1 I lusted over a Porsche 911for years (thought that they fit me like the proverbial glove). I remember the day that I drove one where my finances and cost of the car were in alignment. (some years after driving a Mustang and a couple of 914's and MR2). When I got back into my 190E and thought why would I spend more for that loud, rough riding relatively unrefined piece when I can have this for half the cost.
In Glyn's case, he continues to enjoy the passions he had earlier, but is expressing appreciation for additional attributes. He once liked and still likes characteristic "A", but now also expresses like for "B". So, he has positive attitudes for both "A" and "B" in different situations. This is different than the origins of this discussion where the concept of "growing up/maturing" leading to a change suggested "A" displaces "B", which is not even the case he suggests. Over large data, that does not happen. He now just likes them in different proportions, and one would suggest he was never really the most typical representative of "A", but likely always harbored a latent or overt appreciation for both sets of attributes. The large sample data does show, on different continents, that actual members of a psychographic segment tend to stay in that segment as they move through different life stage needs. Here's a favorite example. When those who centrally value performance moved into a life stage where they needed a minivan, they overwhelmingly (in the US) selected one minivan far and away over others.....the Honda Odyssey, not Sienna, not Sedona, not the domestics. And the evidence is clear that all who analyzed the behavior of the vehicles in the minivan segment found the Odyssey had the more performance-oriented chassis, steering, and powertrain characteristics. The values/attitudes remain, but the expression varies as the needs change.
But, this thread has gone on a tangent from the original point (guilty!). The start of this was that, while MB is toiling to align the expressive values of the C--->E--->S, it is quite a jump to enter that track from the CLA which has notably different attributes and expresses different values. Just as BMW is working a Gran Coupe strategy as compared to its traditional sedans, MB might be wise to consider an intermediate step between CLA and CLS for those who are drawn to such expressive positionings. As evidence of the size of this kind of gap, I took a look at a US database and see that less than 3% of S Class buyers came from prior drivers of CLS. More actually came to S Class from 7 Series! That same disconnect was the issue I was raising for the CLA to C Class analogy.
#115
Super Moderator
As I said Benz is considering a complete redesign of the B Class as they did with the A in an endeavour to bridge that gap. The present B Class people carrier MPV is a complete misfit in the range. Many will be happy to go from CLA to MT Avantgarde W205. Lack of an MT offering in the US is an aberration.
Back on the segmentation front. One thing I insisted on when it came to evaluation of the distilled results of in our case 227 markets total of which 76 were considered critical was that final evaluation was done by a carefully selected, multidisciplined team. Every member had to have considerable & varying international experience preferably exceeding 10 years abroad from home base. Individuals are far too inclined to flavour the ouput with personal experiences or biases leading to costly distortion. This obviously for global strategy development. In country stategy (product range, channels to market etc.etc.) is managed on a think globally & enterprise value while acting locally basis.
The entire process was obviously bottom up but the ouput managed functionally globally.
Nevertheless the devil is always in the detail.
Back on the segmentation front. One thing I insisted on when it came to evaluation of the distilled results of in our case 227 markets total of which 76 were considered critical was that final evaluation was done by a carefully selected, multidisciplined team. Every member had to have considerable & varying international experience preferably exceeding 10 years abroad from home base. Individuals are far too inclined to flavour the ouput with personal experiences or biases leading to costly distortion. This obviously for global strategy development. In country stategy (product range, channels to market etc.etc.) is managed on a think globally & enterprise value while acting locally basis.
The entire process was obviously bottom up but the ouput managed functionally globally.
Nevertheless the devil is always in the detail.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 12-20-2013 at 06:04 PM.
#116
MBWorld Fanatic!
As I said Benz is considering a complete redesign of the B Class as they did with the A in an endeavour to bridge that gap. The present B Class people carrier MPV is a complete misfit in the range. Many will be happy to go from CLA to MT Avantgarde W205. Lack of an MT offering in the US is an aberration.
Back on the segmentation front. One thing I insisted on when it came to evaluation of the distilled results of in our case 227 markets total of which 76 were considered critical was that final evaluation was done by a carefully selected, multidisciplined team. Every member had to have considerable & varying international experience preferably exceeding 10 years abroad from home base. Individuals are far too inclined to flavour the ouput with personal experiences or biases leading to costly distortion. This obviously for global strategy development. In country stategy (product range, channels to market etc.etc.) is managed on a think globally & enterprise value while acting locally basis.
The entire process was obviously bottom up but the ouput managed functionally globally.
Nevertheless the devil is always in the detail.
Back on the segmentation front. One thing I insisted on when it came to evaluation of the distilled results of in our case 227 markets total of which 76 were considered critical was that final evaluation was done by a carefully selected, multidisciplined team. Every member had to have considerable & varying international experience preferably exceeding 10 years abroad from home base. Individuals are far too inclined to flavour the ouput with personal experiences or biases leading to costly distortion. This obviously for global strategy development. In country stategy (product range, channels to market etc.etc.) is managed on a think globally & enterprise value while acting locally basis.
The entire process was obviously bottom up but the ouput managed functionally globally.
Nevertheless the devil is always in the detail.
Regarding segmentation, did your approach utilize K-means or hierarchical autonomous regression? I'm not a statistician, but I've had experts advocate both sides of that choice.
#117
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2012 C250 Sport
But, this thread has gone on a tangent from the original point (guilty!). The start of this was that, while MB is toiling to align the expressive values of the C--->E--->S, it is quite a jump to enter that track from the CLA which has notably different attributes and expresses different values. Just as BMW is working a Gran Coupe strategy as compared to its traditional sedans, MB might be wise to consider an intermediate step between CLA and CLS for those who are drawn to such expressive positionings. As evidence of the size of this kind of gap, I took a look at a US database and see that less than 3% of S Class buyers came from prior drivers of CLS. More actually came to S Class from 7 Series! That same disconnect was the issue I was raising for the CLA to C Class analogy.
I don't think most people who get a luxury car (maybe even most people who buy a car in the US) can name all of the cars in manufacter's line. They'll simply say, "Oh, the CLA cost me $35,000 when I got it. Now I can afford to spend $50,000." They'll see the "Sport" in the name of the C-class, the salesperson will tell them that the "Sport" model is for "younger people" (just as a salesperson tried w/ my father when he was looking at the C300), and a sale will be made.
And as people mature and grow, they frequently end up having families. Sexy and fun take a backseat to more practical concerns. Families don't fit so well in a CLS. They'll get a C or an E and then, if they want something fun, they probably have the discretionary income (esp if they're driving an E) to get something on the side that they can drive on the weekends or whatever. They definitely have the discretionary income to get addt'l cars if they're driving an S-class....
Just my $0.02.
#118
Super Moderator
No. We have our own clustering methodology & sometimes applied linear regression to some data sets at +90% confidence levels.
#121
Super Moderator
#122
MBWorld Fanatic!
So true...it reminds me of a professor constantly saying "statistics, damn statistics and lies"...was his favorite quote as it pointed to the fact that selective data collection and usage you can pretty much make any point you want if you play with it enough.
It think that Glyn and Sportstick are both correct. We all have our innate preferences that generally guide how our tastes "mature".
It think that Glyn and Sportstick are both correct. We all have our innate preferences that generally guide how our tastes "mature".
#123
Super Moderator
+1^ Statistical crap & bias can sustain an argument over decades. It is an imprecise science.
Everything is opinion & not fact. Different conclusions can be deduced from the same data set. Neither is necessarily correct & is certainly not fact. Some is more useful than other when embarking on strategy development. Sometimes committing to a strategy is more important than the accuracy of the research data on which the strategy is based. The research is a guide to running in the right direction first time out of the gate. Two apparently opposing strategies can work equally well.
Any suggestion that I am right & you are wrong is pure folly.
Corporate arrogance that they exclusively understand the global markets leads to endless sub par performance away from home base. We have a superior crystal ball syndrome.
Substantial away from home base country experience improves the breed.
e.g. You cannot be a China market specialist without having spent considerable time there.
Everything is opinion & not fact. Different conclusions can be deduced from the same data set. Neither is necessarily correct & is certainly not fact. Some is more useful than other when embarking on strategy development. Sometimes committing to a strategy is more important than the accuracy of the research data on which the strategy is based. The research is a guide to running in the right direction first time out of the gate. Two apparently opposing strategies can work equally well.
Any suggestion that I am right & you are wrong is pure folly.
Corporate arrogance that they exclusively understand the global markets leads to endless sub par performance away from home base. We have a superior crystal ball syndrome.
Substantial away from home base country experience improves the breed.
e.g. You cannot be a China market specialist without having spent considerable time there.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 12-21-2013 at 03:38 PM.