Thanks for the input, like everyone says, the m276 seems to have the fewest issues with carbon deposits but they are still relatively new. Highest mileage m276 for sale here has 160 000km so im wondering if the valves need cleaning right around 180-200k?

Does anyone have a m276 equipped car with over 160 000km or have already cleaned the valves ? Im really leaning towards trading my C300 for a face lift C350 soon since they are much more efficient but im still not convinced 100% since it might need major valve cleaning before 200 000km and the injector noise will drive me crazy but I guess I can live with that one..

 

This is something that I really want to know as well. The injector noise is something we will all have to get used to (sadly, I think you and I are probably the people who find this the most annoying and most people are like...what are you talking about? )

I'm glad the MB application for DI doesn't have extensive coil pack failures or HPFP failures, but please please please note it seems like the only major concern, warranted or not, that we have is the cost to get these valves manually cleaned. Back when VAG first introduced DI, these manual cleans cost upwards of $2000 where I live for a 4 banger. Now, these days for your run o' the mill inline 6 cylinder engine from BMW is $450-$600.

So let's say, worst case with the M276 you do a clean every 200,000km, $450-$600 isn't bad, and at that point, you would probably break even with the fuel savings of DI vs PFI, so it now makes sense.

 

Perhaps its better then a lot of other direct injection designs but if you don't have a port injection system, there is no getting away from carbon build up eventually affecting performance and requiring a dismantled cleaning. I respect Lexus for actually curing this cancer way back in 2005 with their 2GR FSE 3.5 engine which had a combination of port and direct injection, something most manufactures only started doing recently to prevent carbon deposits and lexus did it 13 years ago..

 

You touched on a nerve my friend

I'm literally right now torn between the A8, the S class, and the LS500, and I am well aware of the dual injection design of the Lexus DI engines. Unfortunately I could not have it all. With Lexus, my main issue then, even with brand new models, is rust. Lexus vehicles, especially the underside, still, to this day, deal very poorly with rust. I won't get into why I eventually wrote off the LS500, but one of the main reasons was rust.

So we are faced with dealing with a potential DI issue that we're talking about, or a known issue with Japanese cars which is rust. So either the car may get cancer inside, or the car gets cancer outside. Well, one is a certainty, and one isn't.

The thing about MB is that there is no proof of systemic DI issues with respect to carbon buildup impacting engine performance. I remember dyno'ing my RS4 and after a month I'd lose 30-40 HP due to carbon biuldup. It was insanity.

That said though, I'm sure by now, we'd hear something from the MB folks, especially those highly strung AMG engines, but we haven't. It didn't take long for RS4 owners to go...holy crap, what happened to the performance of my engine? I haven't heard a peep from any MB DI application yet.

Sadly for me, I have to face the potential consequences of DI, and the way I see this is, worst case, I'm spending $600 for a clean, every 6 years. I'm OK with that, mainly, because what other recourse do I have? Drive the W204 for another 10 years? (don't laugh, I've thought about it....because my Audi DI nightmare still has me howling at night).

My thinking of this is, there is no proof that there is a DI carbon buildup issue with MB. Could it affect performance as you insinuate? Well, most certainly, logic and science is on your side. It makes sense to me, but what if, (just bear with me), the MB engineers figured out how to get the intake valves to stop accumulating additional carbon past a certain point (e.g. steady state carbon buildup) and that the reduction in performance, say, was 5%, and stayed that way? I'm OK with that....(if you read the tech docs on the air oil separator in the MB applications, it appears that they realized that that was an integral part to prevent carbon buildup to a point that it impacts engine performance).

Obviously, my last paragraph is pure conjecture (save the engine air oil separator component). I have no proof, which is why I'm trying to figure out from folks like Italianjoe who have torn these engines apart to see if any of my beliefs in that department may be grounded in fact.

Sigh. Sometimes, I hate cars. I was looking at the Lincoln Continental, and found it funny as hell that in the US, they are now moving away from DI engines altogether. I wonder why?

 

This post is mainly directed at my good ol' friend @ ltwargssf . I try and conduct myself as a friendly person in all facets of life, including online, but I am REALLY especially thankful when I can have meaningful conversations with educated posters like yourself, so if I may, I'd like to delve a bit more here since I think you're in the same boat as I am.

Over the years, there have been a few of us who have been concerned about direct injection. You, me, and others. We've tried to solve for this in our lives in different ways, mainly with respect to our decisions about our next car(s).

If I may, I would like to share my thought process here. As I mentioned upthread, there's no getting away from this, unless one is willing to buy a Lexus, or a present model Subaru Legacy. But if one wants a German car, we're stuck with DI.

Other than the cost, and what we talked about upthread, I think it's good to remind ourselves of a few things here.

1) Most MB owners do oil changes, at best, according to the factory schedule.
2) Most MB owners, at best, buy premium fuel, but do not actively avoid ethanol and at best, do not go out of their way to buy fuel that is tailored towards DI engines (discussed upthread).
3) Most MB owners are not even aware of what oil the dealers put in their engines.*

*As folks here may or may not know, there was a period of a few YEARS that MB dealers used the same oil for gasoline and diesel engines. (some M1 ESP product) This was NOT approved by MB corporate. 229.5 and 229.51 (IIRC) are not the same and dealers were making this mistake.

So my thought process is this.

There are no systemic epidemic reports of carbon buildup on intake valves despite the above. I am a VERY risk adverse person, but let's say I end up buying a M276 W222 S, as an example. If I

1) Stick to M1 0W40 which is an approved oil for the M276 (to resist oil shearing causing additional vapours to be sent back through the PCV valve that may end up on the intake valves)
2) Stick to oil change intervals which are 2x as aggressive as factory intervals (see #1)
3) Stick to Shell Premium (no ethanol, where I live, with the PEA fuel detergent) (no ethanol - great for minimizing fuel dilution, and the PEA additive, great for what we discussed upthread)
4) Stick to Redline SI1 before every oil change (as discussed upthread)
5) Perhaps use a top cleaner like the GM one or the BG one (as discussed upthread)

I should be fine, I guess? I mean, that's my thought process here. Maybe I'm wrong and way off of base, but I feel I should be OK....

 

That sounds like a good plan but personally, I would add some sort of cleaner through the intake before every few oil change. I've seen to many video and results with this method and it makes sense, you are putting cleaner where fuel never reaches as you drive and if you do it periodically from a low mileage, Im sure this will greatly reduce carbon deposit over time. Like you said though, if its never been cleaned, starting to use cleaner after 100 000km might help it a little but the damage is done and once its on the valves, no cleaner will completely clean it.

Im impressed with this Redline SI1 product, it seems like to work great and better then Techron, I'm going to order a bottle and test it out.


Lexus might have made a good engine but in my opinion, they don't even compare to a Mercedes in terms of luxury and quality. The Lexus is just a Toyota, hollow doors, thin can metal and yes, lots of rust.. I test drove an IS350 and I was stunted how much it reminded me of a camry in terms of quality. They don't have that solid feeling and are way too floaty/tame for my liking, Mercedes really is the best at combining comfort/quality but also can feel sporty when and nimble when you need it. Now I don't know how nimble that S class is going to be haha, I wanted a CLS really badly but the amount of city driving I do, the w204 is a rabbit and the cls felt like a bit cruise ship that would require 2 parking spaces..

 

Thanks for the input. My main concern with these top cleaners is that, right after you use them, you really do need to change out the engine oil, and the fear that a chunk of carbon breaks up and end up in the exhaust system does seem logical to me. I remember when I did the BG clean on my 2.0 FSI and the RS4, that after I floored these cars, literal chunks of carbon would be blasted out of the exhaust pipe!!

That said, if you ever do have a chance, drive a LS500. It did really make me think twice in regards to LS vs S, but I don't want to derail this thread so I'll stop there. Lexus has come a long way, but I literally had a 1 year old LS460 on a hoist and I was like...are you KIDDING me?! There's less rust on my W204 after 6 winters than on a 1 year old LS....frig.

I think you may be a bit surprised if you ever sit in a S class and you just use your knuckles and hit the interior door panels. Even the S classes now are hollow sounding/cheap sounding, which has me thinking about the A8, but for reasons I won't delve into further here in an effort to stay on thread, even Audi has their own problems.

Sigh. If only I were rich enough to afford a Rolls, LOL!

 

Haha, perfect car for me would be one I design myself, take little bits of designs from each car brand to make a perfect car. Honestly I'm not surprised about the quality in the new S class. I don't trust Mercedes since they teamed up with Nissan. Their reliability really went down after 2014.

 

Holy shi*, I think I learned something new tonight. I did not know they teamed up with Nissan. Can you please share more?

 

https://www.motor1.com/news/251547/n...s-development/

Here's an article. The CLA's have their engines built by Nissan. The GLA is basicly a QX50 and in europe, the so called "mercedes Truck" is just a rebadged Nissan frontier.. really disappointing in mercedes but like when they were with Chrysler in the early 2000s, they had quality issues and as soon as they left that partner ship, they excelled and gave us the w204/w212 and fixed so many issues. I believe once again, when mercedes leaves Nissan and becomes independent, trying to prove themselves again instead of saving cost by using nissan, they will come out with some great again.

 

The DI stuff, you guys are chasing a problem that doesn't exist. In the BMW/Audi world it's accepted that you have to walnut blast the valves every 40k miles. We have MB engines with 100k+ miles on them running great with no severe enough valve coking to affect the engine. No additive will help or prevent it enough to be worth doing. All the extra preventative stuff you suggest will cost you more in money/time than having to clean the valves once at 150k miles or whatever, if that even happens. We just don't see it, even on high mileage 271 engines that have been out for some time.

Nissan is buying MB tech, the QX30 is a copy of the GLA, and they are using MB engines in the q50 2.0t and other platforms. Not the same as mixed engineering like in the Daimler-Chrysler days.

Also, the 204/212 have issues just like every other car. It's all relevant.

 

Good to hear about the MB DI engine not having excessive carbon issue, now Im really considering a face lift c350.



I never said 204/212 were issue free but compared to what mercedes were doing pre 2007, they really stepped up and were ahead of the competition for a few years and compared to the issues mercedes had before 2007, those models were like toyotas in terms of reliability and deserved a mercedes status.

About Nissan, its not nissan buying MB tech, in some cases its actually the other way around where MB buys their 3 and 4cyl diesel engines from Nissan for European models. Daimler and the Renault Nissan Alliance have been partners for the last five years already.

The 2.0T is a Mercedes design, yet nissan builds and assembles it..

 

.

 

Nissan builds and assembles some, as does MB. License building is nothing new, most manufacturers have multiple engine plants in different countries for mass production engines.

Either way, nissan builds great cars, they won't hurt Benz like Chrysler did.

 

Once again Italian Joe your sage words provide a calming (and much appreciated) balm for this sailor's anxiety vis-a-vis the DI carbon buildup saga.

My C250 coupe - with a (fortunately low mileage) 271 - was a CPO purchase from the really decent dealership in El Dorado Hills.

Your insights - plus the EDH dealership's fine performance - add much to ownership of this beautiful little coupe.

all the best,


ez

 

...sigh....tons of "hypotheticals", so let me chime in with direct experience (no pun intended)...I have a 2012 C350 (original owner)...and going on to 110k miles ~(177km)...still no issues to report and can still run 30+ MPG in the right conditions.

I use a fuel cleaner every 10k miles but I alternate from Redlines SI-1 and Amsoil PI. Both are great products but I'm going to continue with Redline since it's easier to get (similarly how Mobil-1 0w40 is super cheap @ Walmart so no reason to go elsewhere). As for gas, I explicitly use Costco for the club benefits.

I have no investments in MB, and do not consider myself a MB fanboi...however my experience with the W204 has been nothing but positive and has spoiled me in terms of what to look for moving forward. My wife will move on to EVs, but I will stick with Unleaded (in case of natural disaster/emergencies) but Im no longer willing to crawl under the car for a simple oil change. This w204 has set a new bar for me (mainly in regards to ease of maintenance), but as of now the original plan stands in that I plan to take this car to a minimum 155k miles and report issues regardless. Till then all quiet here.

 

Facelift c350 is the most reliable MB to date.

 

Good to hear, thanks for the input and I look forward to hear how it does after 120k miles.

 

I have a 2007 E63 that I bought in December 2017 with 94k on it. No sooner than when I picked it up from the body shop (it had a smiley face gouge in the hood from mirror to mirror running in front of the emblem!!) to drive it home did I find that the previous owner not only put another 1500+ miles on the car, but it was also revving idle at around 1500 rpm??? Thinking it must be an Intake Gasket, I went ahead and removed the Intake to find the Intake runners were, as mentioned above, completely corroded with carbon builldup. So much so that I was seriously thinking of getting the equipment necessary to do a Walnut Shell Blast!

But being that I was aware of the Head Bolt issue, I decided to remove the Heads and sent them out to be rebuilt by Xtreme Heads in Palm City, Fl. They found that 8 of 16 Intake Valves were bent, so I was very reassured going this route was well worth the effort as their shop has all the best equipment for whatever one would want to do! I also replaced all the Cam followers (ie-Tappets) with black SLS, and had all the Springs tested. I also had the Intake Manifold remanufactered at RMT in Pompano Beach, Fl. They showed me how riddled with holes my Intake Plenum was as well as showed me their beefed up proprietary replacement was to take its place! FYI, the Plenum I reference is what each of the Throttle Valves attach to. It's the molding which hold wires leading to those Throttle bodies along the perimeter of the plenum which usually get holes in it but mine was even worse! While I was there to pick up the Intake, I also bought their Remaned front Airmatic Struts as I found out during my front suspension rebuild that one of my Struts was leaking and the other had been replaced with an Arnott that wasn't Airmatic. In fact, they couldn't accept the Arnott to be rebuilt because that version had the air chamber deleted thus allowing only for ride hieght to be set but NO Airmatic Magic to occur, so I ended up scrapping it!

I also installed low profile headers (Not Long Tubes) and about a month after getting her up and running, I noticed a rather loud sound emanating from the passenger side. So I took a piece of blue shop towel and held it with one of those long part grabbers and placed it above and below the Manifold and low and behold their was a leak as evidenced by the towel turning brown while reverberating to the Exhaust. It turned out the Header was indeed bent!!! So I swapped it out with the OEM that I took off and returned it for a replacement! However, since I hadn't driven 1200 miles on "Newly Rebuilt" (-i.e. Clean) Heads, I was flummoxed to see the Exhaust already showing carbon buildup! So I too am considering using PEA and/or the Redline, but since I have built a CatchCan setup, I'm wondering if using the redline would even be effective since I've added 6 feet of heater hose to the Can I've positioned up passenger front behind the Headlight mounted to the ABS?? Another option is to seek out one of those guys who treat the engine to Hydrogen directed into the Intake which serves to combust all the carbon buildup in the runners as well as the Exhaust and even the Cats as well!! It's a couple $100 and takes about 15-20 minutes!!

 

Arnott offers both remanufactured Original Equipment (O.E.) front struts AND Arnott Designed NEW front struts for the E-Class W211 Chassis. The one on your vehicle that couldn't be rebuilt was an Arnott designed new strut which does not include any of the Semi-Active Damping Functionality (ADS = Adaptive Damping System) so there would no reason or advantage to rebuild them (plus, since it is new it most likely was still functional anyway). Arnott remanufactured OE struts support the active damping functionality of the Mercedes strut but have an unknown number of miles on the internal shock while Arnott New struts have a brand new, zero mile, custom valved shock without active damping but they do adapt to the drivers style. It all comes down to budget and the age and miles on the vehicle.

Arnott designed NEW struts feature a brand new passive shock damper which was custom made and tuned for the E-Class and has zero miles. The new damper provides an excellent ride for your 7-16+ year old vehicle and there is no shortage or cores as with remans. Most drivers love the ride (because they have a new damper that is usually always an improvement over a hard driven, worn out, strut) and this strut can be installed next to an OE strut. The new strut does not include the semi-active damping which often wear out in older 10+ year old OE units but the Arnott strut still maintains your vehicle’s luxury Airmatic® auto and load leveling capabilities. Arnott designed new struts provide a fully functional air suspension strut which provides auto leveling and the luxury of air springs to smooth out bumps and provide the premium ride owners expect. The top is machined in our CNC machine shop from aircraft quality American aluminum which is stronger than the pressed steel OE top. Arnott’s new struts feature thicker, name brand, multi-ply air bladders, nearly indestructible seals and a brand new, tighter fitting, bottom mount and top cap. We add the same heavy duty, multi-ply, ContiTech air bladder, crimping rings, and air line connectors as in the reman strut but replace the ADS coil with a device to turn off any dashboard air suspension warning lights. They cost a bit more but we may buy back your used OE core.

Arnott-designed new struts are an excellent alternative for aging air suspension systems because they provide the luxury, comfort, and auto leveling of air springs but replace the older original active damping shock with a new, custom-valved shock designed to provide a great ride at a more affordable price.