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I remember driving a W202 and thinking the the potholes were getting the worse end of the deal when I drove over them you had this sense of them being crushed by the car.
My parents had a C280 (W202), and that was a fine car. I recall thinking that the low speed ride was quite hard but then being amazed at the body control over speed bumps and over just about any type of bump at high speed. Steering was a little dead but perfectly weighted. Was not at all impressed w/ the first version of the W203 which just seemed... cheap (although it still drove relatively well.... body control was lacking, though).
I wonder if the Luxury trim will provide you w/ the qualities you want. Consumer Reports has said that the Sport vs. Luxury trim for the W204 and W212 are substantially different from each other (w/ the Luxury having a better ride and, oddly enough, heavier steering [at least in the W204]).
I myself have no intention of getting a Sport model again....
2015 C400 AMG line on order Oct 2014, 2009 Hyundai Genesis 4.6, 2007 Acura TSX
Originally Posted by NYC-Style
Went for "another" test drive today and had the chance to play with some of the infotainment features. It definitely will take some getting used to. I bought along my Passport 500GB portable hard drive...I keep music and videos on it. The videos played while the car was in park mode...the music played but it did not display the album art (it did identify the artist). Switched driving modes and could tell the difference between sport and comfort. I originally ordered a C300 with sport package...but decided to go with the C400 in which the sport package is standard. So I went from a mid/late Sept. delivery to early November...oh well...it'll be an early Christmas gift to myself.
I'm not missing the point at all. You choose to misconstrue.
Damn right we are going to have to get used to it. One day I will be driving a composite electric or whatever.
For now I choose something with greater substance.
I like the W205, as stated on another thread, I could be happy with a fully loaded, steel suspended C400 Exclusive with traditional grill & hoodstar.
Agree to disagree, because IMO you're confused if you think that weight is what gives the feeling of substance. You can get the same feeling in a rigidly constructed, but light weight car. Weight does not equal substance automatically. That thinking is from the stone age.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by alsyli
My parents had a C280 (W202), and that was a fine car. I recall thinking that the low speed ride was quite hard but then being amazed at the body control over speed bumps and over just about any type of bump at high speed. Steering was a little dead but perfectly weighted. Was not at all impressed w/ the first version of the W203 which just seemed... cheap (although it still drove relatively well.... body control was lacking, though).
I wonder if the Luxury trim will provide you w/ the qualities you want. Consumer Reports has said that the Sport vs. Luxury trim for the W204 and W212 are substantially different from each other (w/ the Luxury having a better ride and, oddly enough, heavier steering [at least in the W204]).
I myself have no intention of getting a Sport model again....
Yep ~ My W202 was a 280 ~ styling was very laid back but it drove well.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Read the white paper & all references to sprung weight, damping & spring rates vs. sprung weight (inertia), unsprung weight to sprung weight ratios for lighter cars, effects of weight & stiffness on stability, greater effects of laden weight on lighter cars etc. etc. ad nauseam.
In response to my statement quote
"I believe that Benz traditionalists like MBNUT & myself are going to have a hard time liking the lighter cars that Benz is forced to make for the sake of fuel efficiency. Weight adds to the feel we like in the cars. " unquote
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 08-20-2014 at 12:42 PM.
Weight is NOT what gives a Mercedes-Benz the feeling they give. Not sure how to convey that to you. The cars from the 80's like the W126, W124 and the W201 were all light weight compared to today's cars they drove sooo good, pure Mercedes-Benz. It isn't about just weight making a car feel more substantial. Having more weight in a car today is a problem, not an asset. The feeling a Mercedes gives is in the suspension, steering, brakes, seats, and the controls, not just because of how much it weighs. If you older guys really believe that weight adds to the feel of a car you're really lost man. It simply doesn't.
Nah, not hardly. I think you're having a hard time accepting that your outdated belief about weight adding to the feel of a car is ridiculously untrue. So you're saying that Mercedes-Benz engineers think that adding weight to a car makes them feel more substantial? It has nothing to do with the build quality, steering, suspension, brakes and they way everything is tuned to work together? Furthermore, who said anything about what concerns MB engineers? Their concern isn't adding weight to make a car feel a certain way, that is for sure. They're concerned with making lighter cars that fit into today's world without losing the feel that has made them what they are.
M
Last edited by Germancar1; 08-20-2014 at 01:12 PM.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Once again you conveniently misconstrue. There was an entire internal study done at DB on shedding weight of all PC ranges while at the same time maintaining traditional Benz values of rock solid feel, safety, tactile cabin materials ~ you name it.
Most were easy such as safety with modern materials.
There largest single concern was maintaining the solid Benz feel due to weight. Especially for models with Luxury pretensions. This still concerns them.
With the A Class & derivatives such as the CLA they decided to challenge their DNA & move away from the past. The result has been the most un Mercedes product to drive ever. That does not mean it's bad. Only that the typical Benz driver would not recognise it behind the wheel.
Once again you conveniently misconstrue. There was an entire internal study done at DB on shedding weight of all PC ranges while at the same time maintaining traditional Benz values of rock solid feel, safety, tactile cabin materials ~ you name it.
Most were easy such as safety with modern materials.
There largest single concern was maintaining the solid Benz feel due to weight. Especially for models with Luxury pretensions. This still concerns them.
With the A Class & derivatives such as the CLA they decided to challenge their DNA & move away from the past. The result has been the most un Mercedes product to drive ever. That does not mean it's bad. Only that the typical Benz driver would not recognise it behind the wheel.
That is more than just saying weight gives you feel. That weight you're talking about comes from a better constructed car, which is what I said at the start. What you don't seem to understand or what to acknowledge is that you can have a well made car that is also light weight while still providing the proper feel of a Benz. Sheer weight does not = feel. That is what you don't get. Otherwise other similarly heavy cars would feel like a Benz and yet they don't.
The CLA/A/B/GLA lose the feel because they are cheaply built (for a Mercedes), not because they are lightweight. They're also FWD. Huge difference. The dynamics aren't the same and it isn't because of what they weigh.
M
Last edited by Germancar1; 08-20-2014 at 02:50 PM.
Weight is NOT what gives a Mercedes-Benz the feeling they give. Not sure how to convey that to you. The cars from the 80's like the W126, W124 and the W201 were all light weight compared to today's cars they drove sooo good, pure Mercedes-Benz. It isn't about just weight making a car feel more substantial. Having more weight in a car today is a problem, not an asset. The feeling a Mercedes gives is in the suspension, steering, brakes, seats, and the controls, not just because of how much it weighs. If you older guys really believe that weight adds to the feel of a car you're really lost man. It simply doesn't.
M
Look at the wheel size and tire aspect ratio of the earlier Benz's you will find that relatively speaking they we smaller and less stiff. You can go all the way back to my '59 220se ponton that barely weighed 3000 lb. The wheels on that car were in 170-90-13's the tires on my last 3700 lb E class which were 245-45-17's. The point being the older lighter cars also had less unsprung weight and softer tires to contend with.
The real point is that the C300 W205 is lighter and lighter feeling than W204 C3004matic and to me the latter feels more substantial which I prefer. On a whole host of technical merits the W205 C300 is a superior car as is a 328i. It just doesn't have the feel that I am going for.
This thread seems to have been hijacked by the 2 G's and I think both of them are knowledgable and correct in their observations. I for one ( like many among us) know very little about the engineering aspect but am glad to enjoy the sturdy, luxurious, vault like and heavy feel of the MBs. Hats off to both of you for your inputs. It keeps us going.
My parents had a C280 (W202), and that was a fine car. I recall thinking that the low speed ride was quite hard but then being amazed at the body control over speed bumps and over just about any type of bump at high speed. Steering was a little dead but perfectly weighted. Was not at all impressed w/ the first version of the W203 which just seemed... cheap (although it still drove relatively well.... body control was lacking, though).
I wonder if the Luxury trim will provide you w/ the qualities you want. Consumer Reports has said that the Sport vs. Luxury trim for the W204 and W212 are substantially different from each other (w/ the Luxury having a better ride and, oddly enough, heavier steering [at least in the W204]).
I myself have no intention of getting a Sport model again....
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by Germancar1
That is more than just saying weight gives you feel. That weight you're talking about comes from a better constructed car, which is what I said at the start. What you don't seem to understand or what to acknowledge is that you can have a well made car that is also light weight while still providing the proper feel of a Benz. Sheer weight does not = feel. That is what you don't get. Otherwise other similarly heavy cars would feel like a Benz and yet they don't.
The CLA/A/B/GLA lose the feel because they are cheaply built (for a Mercedes), not because they are lightweight. They're also FWD. Huge difference. The dynamics aren't the same and it isn't because of what they weigh.
M
You really are a piece of work. Are you capable of lateral thought?
Of course some of the weight comes from a better constructed car. But in layman's terms you might understand, weight (or inertia) & stiffness are what springs & spring rate & dampers & damping rate react against in the most simple sense. To say the least of other mass & mass ratio issues.
We were only ever talking about Benz here & lighter Benz cars. I have discussed with their engineers their concerns of shedding mass while maintaining or increasing integrity but maintaining traditional feel.
Benz engineers accept that there is compromise involved in shedding weight & their are limits for now as to how they will go by vehicle class. Every Benz engineer I have interacted with accepts that mass is part of the Benz feel. Why can't you accept that?
I await more weasel wording & wriggling in your futile attempts to prove them wrong.
BTW ~ Both A Class & CLA are available as 4WD & they still don't feel like a Benz to drive.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by cleankutazn
So if my 500lb wife sits in my car I will then be in a true mercdes
The lighter a Benz becomes so the greater will be the disturbing influences your 500 lb wife will have on handling & feel. Read the suspension article on lightweight cars I linked above.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by MBNUT1
Look at the wheel size and tire aspect ratio of the earlier Benz's you will find that relatively speaking they we smaller and less stiff. You can go all the way back to my '59 220se ponton that barely weighed 3000 lb. The wheels on that car were in 170-90-13's the tires on my last 3700 lb E class which were 245-45-17's. The point being the older lighter cars also had less unsprung weight and softer tires to contend with.
The real point is that the C300 W205 is lighter and lighter feeling than W204 C3004matic and to me the latter feels more substantial which I prefer. On a whole host of technical merits the W205 C300 is a superior car as is a 328i. It just doesn't have the feel that I am going for.
Benz has always been able to make a 3000lb car drive like a 4000lb car due to careful suspension tuning. Control of unsprung to sprung weight ratio. Careful selection of damping & as you say much higher profile tyres etc.
But there is a limit to this as mass reduces. One also does not want suspension components encroaching on passenger & luggage space. This forces certain compromises. Fully active suspension & deletion of anti roll bars is not cost effective at this time. It's possible on a McLaren MP4 12C and above.
Benz has always been able to make a 3000lb car drive like a 4000lb car due to careful suspension tuning. Control of unsprung to sprung weight ratio. Careful selection of damping & as you say much higher profile tyres etc.
But there is a limit to this as mass reduces. One also does not want suspension components encroaching on passenger & luggage space. This forces certain compromises. Fully active suspension & deletion of anti roll bars is not cost effective at this time. It's possible on a McLaren MP4 12C and above.
My dream job when I was in grad school was to design active suspension systems for Mercedes but alas it was not meant to be.
You really are a piece of work. Are you capable of lateral thought?
Of course some of the weight comes from a better constructed car. But in layman's terms you might understand, weight (or inertia) & stiffness are what springs & spring rate & dampers & damping rate react against in the most simple sense. To say the least of other mass & mass ratio issues.
We were only ever talking about Benz here & lighter Benz cars. I have discussed with their engineers their concerns of shedding mass while maintaining or increasing integrity but maintaining traditional feel.
Benz engineers accept that there is compromise involved in shedding weight & their are limits for now as to how they will go by vehicle class. Every Benz engineer I have interacted with accepts that mass is part of the Benz feel. Why can't you accept that?
I await more weasel wording & wriggling in your futile attempts to prove them wrong.
BTW ~ Both A Class & CLA are available as 4WD & they still don't feel like a Benz to drive.
You haven't proven anything wrong. What am I weaseling around about? NOTHING. Dude, more weight does not give a Mercedes more feel.
I am the one that said that the feel came from the suspension, and other components of the car, not just sheer weight and now you think you've said something because you just repeated what I already said 5 posts ago? Ridiculous dude. You're hanging on to an outdated notion that older Mercedes' felt they way they did because of weight. THAT IS WRONG AND OUTDATED.
Apparently, you missed the point about the CLA/A/B etc also, they are FWD cars in layout, not RWD, that is why they are dynamically different. Having options AWD DOES NOTHING to change the basic layout of the car. OMG seriously dude.
MORE WEIGHT does not = feel in a Mercedes-Benz. You can talk around it all you like, but that is what you tried to say at first until I showed you how ridiculous such a notion is.
Again, Mercedes' cars were pretty light (vs todays cars) in the 80's and they felt the same. What does that prove? It has nothing to do with weight. It is about how the cars are made, assembled, and how everything like the brakes, suspension, steering is tuned. You can get the same feel in a lightweight Mercedes if built right. What part of that don't you get?
M
Last edited by Germancar1; 08-20-2014 at 10:46 PM.
Benz has always been able to make a 3000lb car drive like a 4000lb car due to careful suspension tuning. Control of unsprung to sprung weight ratio. Careful selection of damping & as you say much higher profile tyres etc..
Amazing, this is what I have been saying all along, yet you're still arguing about it. It is the suspension and how it is tuned along with other items that give the feel in a Mercedes, not just weight.
Even a 190E and 300E back in the day drove like a big car at times, but in the case of the 300E it was also pretty light on its feet. It was a very light car and felt 100% Mercedes-Benz. What you just said contradicts what you first tried to say which was some ridiculous notion that a lightweight Mercedes can't feel like a Mercedes.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
You don't understand. You know better than Benz does. I have not contradicted anything but you can't grasp that as cars become lighter you can't pull the old tricks of the trade on feel. The suspension needs the weight to pull the trick. Continue to be obtuse. Good night & we agree to differ.
Quote from my first post.
"It is impressive that they have achieved the level of comfort they have in the W205 considering it is lighter. Well tuned, well damped steel suspension or air suspension are to thank on other than Sport models which I find jarringly firm especially with large diameter wheels & very low profile tyres."
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 08-20-2014 at 11:22 PM.
08-20-2014, 01:18 AM
