C400 or C450?
#101
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I own one of the best handling RWD cars ever made, the S2000 and I love it of course, however, aside from the easier drifting, I don't think that it offers any other benefits compared to a well setup AWD car like the C series. In fact, in most situations I like AWD cars better and, as a daily driver, its simply no contest. Unless you are tracking your vehicle, RWD has zero advantages over a well set AWD car, even in racing AWD is probably superior given the traction benefits. Plus, you can drift AWD cars just fine given enough power.
I know you guys outside the US have never used SHAWD (torque vectoring with acceleration gear) but it provides astonishing benefits in sharp curves. Its pretty amazing when you see an underpowered Acura smoking M3's and Porches in a tight turn. I wish Honda, who invented it, or other manufacturers would take such a brilliant system and adapt it to high power drivetrains. Other manufacturers make some variation of torque proportioning (Mercedes uses ABS to do it) but the fact is that no other system actually makes that wheel (rear outside) go faster rather than just proportioning available torque.
I know you guys outside the US have never used SHAWD (torque vectoring with acceleration gear) but it provides astonishing benefits in sharp curves. Its pretty amazing when you see an underpowered Acura smoking M3's and Porches in a tight turn. I wish Honda, who invented it, or other manufacturers would take such a brilliant system and adapt it to high power drivetrains. Other manufacturers make some variation of torque proportioning (Mercedes uses ABS to do it) but the fact is that no other system actually makes that wheel (rear outside) go faster rather than just proportioning available torque.
Last edited by c4004matic; 12-17-2014 at 10:01 AM.
#102
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The S2000 is an amazing little car, rather bland styling excluded. It is wonderful to drive because it's performance is somehow more accessible & fun than certain other performance vehicles that can be somewhat sterile. ~ like Porsche.
That said ~ Porsche's Torque Vectoring Plus that apportions torque via an electronically controlled differential to the rear wheels is stunning.
That said ~ Porsche's Torque Vectoring Plus that apportions torque via an electronically controlled differential to the rear wheels is stunning.
#103
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The C450 with 4Matic will be the 1st AMG Performance car off the line when it arrives end of Q3 or early Q4 next year. I'm not sure if a RWD version will be following in 2016. And your points about the everyday advantages of AWD are exactly what I was talking about. One of my cars until recently was an '11 M3 so I'm not adverse to the performance benefits of RWD. But AWD in the right car with the right amount of power, as you described, can be similarly effective from a performance standpoint. It's all in the AWD tuning and the suspension it's matched with. I hope this new AMG Performance arm of Mercedes gets the car right, right out of the box. Damm....I wish an insider would leak some info, the wait for Detroit is killing me.
If the C400 can do 4.6/13.3, I'm sure the C450 with more aggressive tuning and power will be in the 4.2-4.3 range and maybe 13 flat. With no traction issues at launch it will be a very quick car.
#104
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The S2000 is an amazing little car, rather bland styling excluded. It is wonderful to drive because it's performance is somehow more accessible & fun than certain other performance vehicles that can be somewhat sterile. ~ like Porsche.
That said ~ Porsche's Torque Vectoring Plus that apportions torque via an electronically controlled differential to the rear wheels is stunning.
That said ~ Porsche's Torque Vectoring Plus that apportions torque via an electronically controlled differential to the rear wheels is stunning.
http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/ar...spx?id=7504-en
The car I was originally in the market for was a SHAWD hybrid (AKA sport hybrid). However Honda had teething issues with the system and delayed the car for almost a year, that's how I ended up at the Mercedes dealer.
Anyway compared to any of those systems 4matic seems crude though still effective.
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'13 C350, '13 GLK250
#106
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The fact remains the Porsche system works & makes it the best handling sports car out there in it's class. Even at a power deficit over it's competition, over a specific distance with plently of twisties (something like the Manx TT course) it blows it's competition to the weeds.
Irritatingly competent & the 911 still has it's engine in the wrong place! I don't love them but I have to admire what they do well.
Irritatingly competent & the 911 still has it's engine in the wrong place! I don't love them but I have to admire what they do well.
#107
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I own one of the best handling RWD cars ever made, the S2000 and I love it of course, however, aside from the easier drifting, I don't think that it offers any other benefits compared to a well setup AWD car like the C series. In fact, in most situations I like AWD cars better and, as a daily driver, its simply no contest. Unless you are tracking your vehicle, RWD has zero advantages over a well set AWD car, even in racing AWD is probably superior given the traction benefits. Plus, you can drift AWD cars just fine given enough power.
#108
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2014 E63S; AMS 100 octane ecu tune; edok tcu tune; BB intakes; dyno tuned
The 450 will have a fixed 33/66 forced front/rear split I read... More like the amg's... The real amgs with 4 matic
#109
oh.. I whole heartedly disagree.
There are many advantages to RWD over AWD or 4WD, that relates to daily use and ownership. Vice versa there are also many advantages to AWD or 4WD over RWD.
To add confusion: FWD this too has it's advantages and disadvantages over RWD and AWD/4WD.
just to mention a few (all will not apply to any car of course)
RWD benefits over AWD/4WD: Better tuning circle, better fuel economy, better weight distribution, ligther, les complex and less expensive to maintain and service over time. Better steering feel. Often better brakes too(relates to weight distribution), and there is less transmission loss.
Some AWD/4WD systems are also just plain bad, and this design weakness does not really apply for RWD.
I own and drive FWD, 4WD, AWD and RWD, Front, mid and rear engine cars. To be honest I just traded the rear engined car, but have no overall preference to any system or layout.
There are many advantages to RWD over AWD or 4WD, that relates to daily use and ownership. Vice versa there are also many advantages to AWD or 4WD over RWD.
To add confusion: FWD this too has it's advantages and disadvantages over RWD and AWD/4WD.
just to mention a few (all will not apply to any car of course)
RWD benefits over AWD/4WD: Better tuning circle, better fuel economy, better weight distribution, ligther, les complex and less expensive to maintain and service over time. Better steering feel. Often better brakes too(relates to weight distribution), and there is less transmission loss.
Some AWD/4WD systems are also just plain bad, and this design weakness does not really apply for RWD.
I own and drive FWD, 4WD, AWD and RWD, Front, mid and rear engine cars. To be honest I just traded the rear engined car, but have no overall preference to any system or layout.
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I hope so, seems like it's a winner of a system (as in your AMG), described in a bunch of mag tests as providing the feel of RWD most of the time, the security of properly proportioned AWD for quick and efficient track outs and just plain old confidence to push the limits whenever you can. It'll be exciting if the C450 does in fact get the full-blown AMG-tuned 4Matic system. If this is the case, and as much as I'd love to own the C63, I'm thinking that the C450 will be my next car.
#111
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
Is BMW releasing a version of this as well? Currently, "M Performance" at least in the States isn't an actually new badged and moniker of car (like it is with M-B calling it "C450 AMG Sport"), I believe it's just a 335i (or whatever else it comes on) with some "performance" and/or aesthetic parts. I know there's an M550D out there, but not in the States, and not sure if it's factored within "M Performance".
AMG guys ain't gonna be too happy with the impending AMG badges sprinkled all over that "bridge" C450.
AMG guys ain't gonna be too happy with the impending AMG badges sprinkled all over that "bridge" C450.
#112
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Is BMW releasing a version of this as well? Currently, "M Performance" at least in the States isn't an actually new badged and moniker of car (like it is with M-B calling it "C450 AMG Sport"), I believe it's just a 335i (or whatever else it comes on) with some "performance" and/or aesthetic parts. I know there's an M550D out there, but not in the States, and not sure if it's factored within "M Performance".
AMG guys ain't gonna be too happy with the impending AMG badges sprinkled all over that "bridge" C450.
AMG guys ain't gonna be too happy with the impending AMG badges sprinkled all over that "bridge" C450.
AMG guys ain't gonna care because they now how the moniker works.
Car guys know that AMGs will be only two numeric, not three and that they will also be known as Mercedes-AMG C63, not Mercedes-Benz C450 AMG Sport.
Do the M owners care? A big who cares...
#113
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
Some M owners indeed complain. And even when they say "they don't care", badge threads become flame tests. BMW already jumped on the badge whoring a long time ago as my 5 Series had like 11 M badges sprinkled throughout it, stock.
#114
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Is BMW releasing a version of this as well? Currently, "M Performance" at least in the States isn't an actually new badged and moniker of car (like it is with M-B calling it "C450 AMG Sport"), I believe it's just a 335i (or whatever else it comes on) with some "performance" and/or aesthetic parts. I know there's an M550D out there, but not in the States, and not sure if it's factored within "M Performance".
AMG guys ain't gonna be too happy with the impending AMG badges sprinkled all over that "bridge" C450.
AMG guys ain't gonna be too happy with the impending AMG badges sprinkled all over that "bridge" C450.
As for the badging issue, interesting to see how MB handles it. BMW seems to have gone a touch overboard on the number of "M's" you can find on the MPerf cars but their performance credibility, particularly the M235's, seems to have quieted the naysayers down. Actually not a big deal anymore in the BMW M community. You alluding to the flame throwing in BMW forums is over.
Last edited by Mark's M; 12-20-2014 at 12:53 AM.
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
Your insight into what MPerformance cars are is wrong. BMW's MPerformance cars HAVE been released. The only one to make it to North America thus far is the M235. It's not an ///M car but it's tweaked by M Division. Which is what the C450 will be when it's similarly tweaked by AMG. Both are more than "performance and/or aesthetic parts" as you mistakenly imply. Have no clue what you are talking about with your 335i info. Do you mean "MSport"? If so, MSport and MPerformance are 2 different animals. Same as the pending difference will be between a MB equipped with an AMG "style" pack vs an AMG Performance-tuned vehicle.
As for the badging issue, interesting to see how MB handles it. BMW seems to have gone a touch overboard on the number of "M's" you can find on the MPerf cars but their performance credibility, particularly the M235's, seems to have quieted the naysayers down. Actually not a big deal anymore in the BMW M community. You alluding to the flame throwing in BMW forums is over.
As for the badging issue, interesting to see how MB handles it. BMW seems to have gone a touch overboard on the number of "M's" you can find on the MPerf cars but their performance credibility, particularly the M235's, seems to have quieted the naysayers down. Actually not a big deal anymore in the BMW M community. You alluding to the flame throwing in BMW forums is over.
That's what I was asking. *IS* there an equivalent from BMW. The M235i answers that. "M Performance" was/is originally introduced (in the U.S, at least) as a line of modifications to some BMW's (http://www.shopbmwusa.com/BMW-PERFORMANCE), such as the 3 Series. I think you can even include some of those "M Performance" options via the configurator now.
#116
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'13 C350, '13 GLK250
Yes, BMW has been doing it for some time so it's not such a hot issue anymore, but when it comes up, it's usually still a little touchy, if not passive aggressive.
That's what I was asking. *IS* there an equivalent from BMW. The M235i answers that. "M Performance" was/is originally introduced (in the U.S, at least) as a line of modifications to some BMW's (http://www.shopbmwusa.com/BMW-PERFORMANCE), such as the 3 Series. I think you can even include some of those "M Performance" options via the configurator now.
That's what I was asking. *IS* there an equivalent from BMW. The M235i answers that. "M Performance" was/is originally introduced (in the U.S, at least) as a line of modifications to some BMW's (http://www.shopbmwusa.com/BMW-PERFORMANCE), such as the 3 Series. I think you can even include some of those "M Performance" options via the configurator now.
I'm sure MB has developed this new line similarly. And if the C450 gets reviews along the lines of what the M235 has, they'll have done a good job bridging the gap between a car that's simply badge engineered and one that possesses some of the performance attributes of the real thing (C63). As for the badging, lol I could care less if they left AMG completely off of this car. I'll be considering it for what is is, not what's on it which I think will fit the demographic of most prospective C450 buyers.
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KLEEMANN has tune already for C400. 410hp and 440lbs/tq
OE has said they will have one soon.. and i'm sure other tuners are already testing products to boost power.
The C450 will be a great car. I hope it has better brakes, a bit better exhaust, obviously power output and better tuning on suspension for handling. 4Matic is just fine for 95% of drivers. RWD with LSD will be ideal but I doubt it will offered.
With turbo engines.. waiting for the extra power kits by manufacturer is really not necessary. But if you want to have peace of mind of stock car.. go for 450, just realize that a regular C400 will be able to keep up just fine.
Mercedes already has done various power levels for the 5.5TT and 4.7TT. Its the same engine but tuned differently. Both reach maximum output with tune. Then exhaust mods are needed to reach a higher level of output.
The 3L M276 will be the same. Eventually the turbos will be maxed out and others mods will be needed to extract more power.
OE has said they will have one soon.. and i'm sure other tuners are already testing products to boost power.
The C450 will be a great car. I hope it has better brakes, a bit better exhaust, obviously power output and better tuning on suspension for handling. 4Matic is just fine for 95% of drivers. RWD with LSD will be ideal but I doubt it will offered.
With turbo engines.. waiting for the extra power kits by manufacturer is really not necessary. But if you want to have peace of mind of stock car.. go for 450, just realize that a regular C400 will be able to keep up just fine.
Mercedes already has done various power levels for the 5.5TT and 4.7TT. Its the same engine but tuned differently. Both reach maximum output with tune. Then exhaust mods are needed to reach a higher level of output.
The 3L M276 will be the same. Eventually the turbos will be maxed out and others mods will be needed to extract more power.
#118
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KLEEMANN has tune already for C400. 410hp and 440lbs/tq
OE has said they will have one soon.. and i'm sure other tuners are already testing products to boost power.
The C450 will be a great car. I hope it has better brakes, a bit better exhaust, obviously power output and better tuning on suspension for handling. 4Matic is just fine for 95% of drivers. RWD with LSD will be ideal but I doubt it will offered.
With turbo engines.. waiting for the extra power kits by manufacturer is really not necessary. But if you want to have peace of mind of stock car.. go for 450, just realize that a regular C400 will be able to keep up just fine.
Mercedes already has done various power levels for the 5.5TT and 4.7TT. Its the same engine but tuned differently. Both reach maximum output with tune. Then exhaust mods are needed to reach a higher level of output.
The 3L M276 will be the same. Eventually the turbos will be maxed out and others mods will be needed to extract more power.
OE has said they will have one soon.. and i'm sure other tuners are already testing products to boost power.
The C450 will be a great car. I hope it has better brakes, a bit better exhaust, obviously power output and better tuning on suspension for handling. 4Matic is just fine for 95% of drivers. RWD with LSD will be ideal but I doubt it will offered.
With turbo engines.. waiting for the extra power kits by manufacturer is really not necessary. But if you want to have peace of mind of stock car.. go for 450, just realize that a regular C400 will be able to keep up just fine.
Mercedes already has done various power levels for the 5.5TT and 4.7TT. Its the same engine but tuned differently. Both reach maximum output with tune. Then exhaust mods are needed to reach a higher level of output.
The 3L M276 will be the same. Eventually the turbos will be maxed out and others mods will be needed to extract more power.
with 4Matic and no wheelspin, that tune could make the C400 a 12.5-12.7 car. Easy 1500USD!
#119
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2015 C400 4matic W205
KLEEMANN has tune already for C400. 410hp and 440lbs/tq
OE has said they will have one soon.. and i'm sure other tuners are already testing products to boost power.
The C450 will be a great car. I hope it has better brakes, a bit better exhaust, obviously power output and better tuning on suspension for handling. 4Matic is just fine for 95% of drivers. RWD with LSD will be ideal but I doubt it will offered.
With turbo engines.. waiting for the extra power kits by manufacturer is really not necessary. But if you want to have peace of mind of stock car.. go for 450, just realize that a regular C400 will be able to keep up just fine.
Mercedes already has done various power levels for the 5.5TT and 4.7TT. Its the same engine but tuned differently. Both reach maximum output with tune. Then exhaust mods are needed to reach a higher level of output.
The 3L M276 will be the same. Eventually the turbos will be maxed out and others mods will be needed to extract more power.
OE has said they will have one soon.. and i'm sure other tuners are already testing products to boost power.
The C450 will be a great car. I hope it has better brakes, a bit better exhaust, obviously power output and better tuning on suspension for handling. 4Matic is just fine for 95% of drivers. RWD with LSD will be ideal but I doubt it will offered.
With turbo engines.. waiting for the extra power kits by manufacturer is really not necessary. But if you want to have peace of mind of stock car.. go for 450, just realize that a regular C400 will be able to keep up just fine.
Mercedes already has done various power levels for the 5.5TT and 4.7TT. Its the same engine but tuned differently. Both reach maximum output with tune. Then exhaust mods are needed to reach a higher level of output.
The 3L M276 will be the same. Eventually the turbos will be maxed out and others mods will be needed to extract more power.
#120
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2018 E63S Wagon. Previous Vehicles: 2007 ML63, 2011 C63 P31, 2014 ML63
I just purchased a c400 4matic for $51k in the US with Nav, lighting package, backup camera, blind spot, sunroof, 19" wheels, foot actuated trunk open/close and rear window shades.
The only complaint so far with the car is the corner handling area where the rear of the car feels very unsure of itself. There is too much body roll and the car sways side to side through the turn and worsens with the slightest more/less steering input you give it during a turn. I'm going to try and contact some euro car suspension gurus to see about specing a larger rear bar and progressive rear springs. I think once you settle down the rear of the car it will make it a completely different animal.
I had this same issue with a 335 vert I owned a few years ago and changing the characteristics of the rear suspension netted huge results.
The only complaint so far with the car is the corner handling area where the rear of the car feels very unsure of itself. There is too much body roll and the car sways side to side through the turn and worsens with the slightest more/less steering input you give it during a turn. I'm going to try and contact some euro car suspension gurus to see about specing a larger rear bar and progressive rear springs. I think once you settle down the rear of the car it will make it a completely different animal.
I had this same issue with a 335 vert I owned a few years ago and changing the characteristics of the rear suspension netted huge results.
#121
I just purchased a c400 4matic for $51k in the US with Nav, lighting package, backup camera, blind spot, sunroof, 19" wheels, foot actuated trunk open/close and rear window shades.
The only complaint so far with the car is the corner handling area where the rear of the car feels very unsure of itself. There is too much body roll and the car sways side to side through the turn and worsens with the slightest more/less steering input you give it during a turn. I'm going to try and contact some euro car suspension gurus to see about specing a larger rear bar and progressive rear springs. I think once you settle down the rear of the car it will make it a completely different animal.
I had this same issue with a 335 vert I owned a few years ago and changing the characteristics of the rear suspension netted huge results.
The only complaint so far with the car is the corner handling area where the rear of the car feels very unsure of itself. There is too much body roll and the car sways side to side through the turn and worsens with the slightest more/less steering input you give it during a turn. I'm going to try and contact some euro car suspension gurus to see about specing a larger rear bar and progressive rear springs. I think once you settle down the rear of the car it will make it a completely different animal.
I had this same issue with a 335 vert I owned a few years ago and changing the characteristics of the rear suspension netted huge results.
Let us know what you find in terms of suspension, I would be very interested.
#122
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
I just purchased a c400 4matic for $51k in the US with Nav, lighting package, backup camera, blind spot, sunroof, 19" wheels, foot actuated trunk open/close and rear window shades.
The only complaint so far with the car is the corner handling area where the rear of the car feels very unsure of itself. There is too much body roll and the car sways side to side through the turn and worsens with the slightest more/less steering input you give it during a turn. I'm going to try and contact some euro car suspension gurus to see about specing a larger rear bar and progressive rear springs. I think once you settle down the rear of the car it will make it a completely different animal.
I had this same issue with a 335 vert I owned a few years ago and changing the characteristics of the rear suspension netted huge results.
The only complaint so far with the car is the corner handling area where the rear of the car feels very unsure of itself. There is too much body roll and the car sways side to side through the turn and worsens with the slightest more/less steering input you give it during a turn. I'm going to try and contact some euro car suspension gurus to see about specing a larger rear bar and progressive rear springs. I think once you settle down the rear of the car it will make it a completely different animal.
I had this same issue with a 335 vert I owned a few years ago and changing the characteristics of the rear suspension netted huge results.
#124
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Alignment issues, tires, and tire pressures all can impact the handling, but the W205 is a stable platform.
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#125
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KA had an old E Class. That chassis was soggy. All Benzes are certainly not like that. Sportstick's wife also has an E Class with the same complaint. It is peculiar to that model in non AMG form & American set up.