C400 or C450?
#76
It's early but I was expecting more problems with the w205 and there certainly seem to be far fewer than the 3 series. Time will tell as sales accumulate. BMW also has quality control problems where the forums reference pages of issues such as wind noise, rattles and rusty seats.
It will be interesting to see what MB Canada does to increase sales of the C. They can't be pleased with the numbers so far, particularly since US sales have grown and Canadian sales numbers have declined.
It will be interesting to see what MB Canada does to increase sales of the C. They can't be pleased with the numbers so far, particularly since US sales have grown and Canadian sales numbers have declined.
#77
What I don't understand is that it seems the c400 sale numbers aren't very high even though almost everybody wouldn't mind the extra HP. Tha leads me to believe price is the factor for lower sales. How do they plan to sell more cars if they discontinue the c400 and only sell the c450 which will be even more expensive? That would also limit the american market to only the c300 and the c450. Well if people aren't already buying the c400, I don't see the c450 doing more volume in sales. In Canada, where rebates are around 1% off MRSP and prices are 15% higher than in the U.S., I have yet to see a w205 on the road. Mercedes sales numbers are actually down in Canada for the c class (only 647 units sold in November and that includes w204), so unless they sell the c450 for 10% less then what you can get a c400 now, there will be few c450 in Canada. At the price point that a c450 will probably be, for a couple thousand more you can maybe get a c63 amg. A fully loaded c400 is already tipping the scales at 68000$ and you need to ad 15% tax to that so just try to imagine how well a 78000$ c class would sell in the USA. The few people that did buy a c400 will have the joy of owning a discontinued model and it seems a recipe to alienate buyers away from the brand. The new Audis are not out yet but just around the corner so this was the perfect window to grab sales away from them but now, you might as well wait 6 months to see what is coming from other manufactures.
I was really hoping for a new Mercedes but now I'm not so sure. I won't even mention the below average reliabilty of the w205. I'm glad both my cars are paid off and I can wait as long as I want for my new car. I really love the styling of the w205 but looks aren't everything.
I was really hoping for a new Mercedes but now I'm not so sure. I won't even mention the below average reliabilty of the w205. I'm glad both my cars are paid off and I can wait as long as I want for my new car. I really love the styling of the w205 but looks aren't everything.
#79
I'm glad to see that other Canadians are also in the same boat as I am. I can only imagine if the c400 is already too expensive then what will the c450 be priced at here. I literally haven't seen one c400 on the road. My dealer said he hasn't sold many which in dealer speak means he really hasn't sold a lot. I remember reading that for September, sales of the c-classs were down 30% yet sales at Mercedes are up 19% so they are selling a lot of everything else but the c class. It was like the worst month for the c-class in 10 years... This is not at all the case in the USA where 10-15% discounts are pricing the w205 at a point that has them moving. Why Mercedes Canada isn't reacting I have no idea. Probably there are a lot of w204 in inventory and they are also having trouble unloading those.
I'm not raining on anybody's parade. If the c400 was priced around 54000$ out the door like it is in the USA then I would be all over it but at 78000$, I have to really think long and hard.
I'm not raining on anybody's parade. If the c400 was priced around 54000$ out the door like it is in the USA then I would be all over it but at 78000$, I have to really think long and hard.
#80
Believe it or not but I forgot to add the fees that the dealer charges. 2400$ Freight and destination, 40$ tire tax, 100 a/c tax, 400$ publicity fee, 35$ registration fee... which actually prices the car above 81000$...
#81
Point being? We could all talk endlessly about things we would buy if it was 33% off price. (We have been here before)
I am no expert on politics or social economics, but I assume the 15% sales tax you complain about , is not added by your dealer but by law. I assume this tax is used to pay for the cost of running the Country of Canada? Again i am no expert, but I belive US citizens does not have the same level of Social security as you enjoy in Canada?
If the car is not for you then why hang around his forum, harping on about percieved issues.
Last edited by Eilers; 12-10-2014 at 03:29 PM.
#82
Super Member
I'm glad to see that other Canadians are also in the same boat as I am. I can only imagine if the c400 is already too expensive then what will the c450 be priced at here. I literally haven't seen one c400 on the road. My dealer said he hasn't sold many which in dealer speak means he really hasn't sold a lot. I remember reading that for September, sales of the c-classs were down 30% yet sales at Mercedes are up 19% so they are selling a lot of everything else but the c class. It was like the worst month for the c-class in 10 years... This is not at all the case in the USA where 10-15% discounts are pricing the w205 at a point that has them moving. Why Mercedes Canada isn't reacting I have no idea. Probably there are a lot of w204 in inventory and they are also having trouble unloading those.
I'm not raining on anybody's parade. If the c400 was priced around 54000$ out the door like it is in the USA then I would be all over it but at 78000$, I have to really think long and hard.
I'm not raining on anybody's parade. If the c400 was priced around 54000$ out the door like it is in the USA then I would be all over it but at 78000$, I have to really think long and hard.
I don't know why Canadians are making a big deal about the price. Go price out a 335xi and an Audi S4, comparably equipped. They are all in the same ballpark. Them , for those who do it, try leasing the other two with their crappy rates and residuals. Next, sit in the BMW. No comparison. The C class, right now, is in another league compared to the competition and frankly to be expected for a brand new car.
What are you going to get in Canada for 54k? The C400 starts at low 50s...
#83
Eilers, point being is that the c400 is not selling in Canada because it is too expensive and that if the c450 replaces the c400 and it is even more expensive, Mercedes will sell even less in Canada.
You've added nothing to the discussion except accuse me of having alternate motives.
Sales tax are of course mandated by the government but they influence the final price of the car. If the car manufacturer adds 15% to the price of the car just because it is sold in Canada and then also doesn't give any rebates and then you add taxes it does price the car out of range. For example, the rear spoiler is sold 300$ in the US but it 555$ in Canada and I don't think Mercedes is giving the extra profit to go towards our health care.
I mentioned that I am interested in this car and that is why I am here but I don't have to justify my presence to you. Let me ask you this though, if the car cost you 80000$, would you consider buying a c400? Would you consider buying a c450 at lets say 85000$? Do you think I might have the right to find that high?
You've added nothing to the discussion except accuse me of having alternate motives.
Sales tax are of course mandated by the government but they influence the final price of the car. If the car manufacturer adds 15% to the price of the car just because it is sold in Canada and then also doesn't give any rebates and then you add taxes it does price the car out of range. For example, the rear spoiler is sold 300$ in the US but it 555$ in Canada and I don't think Mercedes is giving the extra profit to go towards our health care.
I mentioned that I am interested in this car and that is why I am here but I don't have to justify my presence to you. Let me ask you this though, if the car cost you 80000$, would you consider buying a c400? Would you consider buying a c450 at lets say 85000$? Do you think I might have the right to find that high?
#85
Eilers, point being is that the c400 is not selling in Canada because it is too expensive and that if the c450 replaces the c400 and it is even more expensive, Mercedes will sell even less in Canada.
You've added nothing to the discussion except accuse me of having alternate motives.
Sales tax are of course mandated by the government but they influence the final price of the car. If the car manufacturer adds 15% to the price of the car just because it is sold in Canada and then also doesn't give any rebates and then you add taxes it does price the car out of range. For example, the rear spoiler is sold 300$ in the US but it 555$ in Canada and I don't think Mercedes is giving the extra profit to go towards our health care.
I mentioned that I am interested in this car and that is why I am here but I don't have to justify my presence to you. Let me ask you this though, if the car cost you 80000$, would you consider buying a c400? Would you consider buying a c450 at lets say 85000$? Do you think I might have the right to find that high?
You've added nothing to the discussion except accuse me of having alternate motives.
Sales tax are of course mandated by the government but they influence the final price of the car. If the car manufacturer adds 15% to the price of the car just because it is sold in Canada and then also doesn't give any rebates and then you add taxes it does price the car out of range. For example, the rear spoiler is sold 300$ in the US but it 555$ in Canada and I don't think Mercedes is giving the extra profit to go towards our health care.
I mentioned that I am interested in this car and that is why I am here but I don't have to justify my presence to you. Let me ask you this though, if the car cost you 80000$, would you consider buying a c400? Would you consider buying a c450 at lets say 85000$? Do you think I might have the right to find that high?
I genuinely do not get your motivations for being here. Why are you focusing on a car which you can't either afford or is willing to pay the price for?
This forum is by nature, intended for W/S205 owners and for anyone with intent to buy one.
You can obviously stay as long as you please, but anyone who comes here and then decides not to buy the car, should not have any good reasons to hang around. Reading your earlier posts, you clearly have a lot more issues with this car besides the price. So I have to assume that you are currently here primarily to rain on someones else's parade.
Belive me, there are a few of that type around already!
#86
MBWorld Fanatic!
My dealer hasnt had any (0) on the lot and Im the only order. I wouldnt be surprised if many potential buyers dont even know the model even exists! Usually the promoted car is the most expensive model, with the C it has been exactly the opposite. I wonder if Mercedes has bee too worried about cannibalizing sales from the E. Personally I would since the C400 is in general a much nicer car than the present E. Its much faster handles better offers the same comfort up front, not to mention interior styling which makes the E geriatric in comparison. Unless you use the rear seat for adults routinely its a much "better" car, for now, of course. As soon as the E is refreshed, the MB lineup should be back to its "normal" "stratification"
#87
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2010 BMW X5
I see very few C400s in Vancouver, which has a fairly high concentration of luxury vehicles per capita. Canada's the average income is no more than US but prices on everything is routinely 10-15% higher, something we just have to live with in our daily lives. So yes, the C400 is expensive, but no more so than the comparably optioned 335/s4. Both Audi and BMW are offering better discounts but MB's residuals are quite attractive.
I think the problem is that the last C class was junk and really turned everyone off from it. The reaction I get when talking to people is that the "C" can't match the 3 series, which certainly true of the e90 generation. So, the new C300/400 doesn't have the cachet to demand $64,000 loaded as the 335 can.
I think the problem is that the last C class was junk and really turned everyone off from it. The reaction I get when talking to people is that the "C" can't match the 3 series, which certainly true of the e90 generation. So, the new C300/400 doesn't have the cachet to demand $64,000 loaded as the 335 can.
#88
I guess i must have seen too much TV possibly Michael Moore related.... I was sure that living in Canada, meant (like in western Europe) that you paid more taxes, but then you didn't have to worry about a lot of things, which US citizens had to buy insurance for, or pay for. (education, health care etc)
Reading this, i guess the Canadians are having it really bad.. no benefits compared to US, only higher prices on cars.
Reading this, i guess the Canadians are having it really bad.. no benefits compared to US, only higher prices on cars.
#89
Super Member
he'll have it three weeks from now. detroit auto show is mid jan which means he will have about 20 days with it before its discontinued.
personally 9% more hp, amg tuned suspension, steering and styling is worth the 8 month wait for me. also the fact that i don't want a single year production model...
personally 9% more hp, amg tuned suspension, steering and styling is worth the 8 month wait for me. also the fact that i don't want a single year production model...
367 horsepower and 383 pound-feet of torque is a big difference and definitely worth the wait. Hopefully, a good tune would get that car 400+ torque.
#90
I'm not too sure about sales in terms of numbers but from what I've noticed around Vancouver, the W205's doesn't seem to be flooding the market(unlike the W204's).
Maybe people are garaging it or waiting til the weather gets better to purchase, who knows.
The price premium we pay for vehicles in Canada compared to the US is crazy. I'm actually hoping the sales continue to be slow for the W205's, so Merc is forced to offer some crazy discounts and interest rates for them.
Maybe people are garaging it or waiting til the weather gets better to purchase, who knows.
The price premium we pay for vehicles in Canada compared to the US is crazy. I'm actually hoping the sales continue to be slow for the W205's, so Merc is forced to offer some crazy discounts and interest rates for them.
#91
MBWorld Fanatic!
I'm not too sure about sales in terms of numbers but from what I've noticed around Vancouver, the W205's doesn't seem to be flooding the market(unlike the W204's).
Maybe people are garaging it or waiting til the weather gets better to purchase, who knows.
The price premium we pay for vehicles in Canada compared to the US is crazy. I'm actually hoping the sales continue to be slow for the W205's, so Merc is forced to offer some crazy discounts and interest rates for them.
Maybe people are garaging it or waiting til the weather gets better to purchase, who knows.
The price premium we pay for vehicles in Canada compared to the US is crazy. I'm actually hoping the sales continue to be slow for the W205's, so Merc is forced to offer some crazy discounts and interest rates for them.
Interest rates in the US are less than 2%
#92
MBWorld Fanatic!
For those that were wondering if the 400 drivetrain was going away this year.
http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehicl...nt=model-specs
http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehicl...nt=model-specs
#93
Super Moderator
Remember the E is built in Germany & will follow global practice. What Tuscaloosa does might prove different.
#94
MBWorld Fanatic!
True, but the engines used here come from Germany, all they do here is put it in the car. We will soon know. It would also be weird that they would equip their brand new E with a lesser engine than its cheaper sibling.
#95
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2015 C300 RWD
From info out there, the odds are not in your favor that USA will keep the "not as well received as expected" C400. Who knows, MBUSA does kooky stuff sometimes.
Still leaves original post, unless someone has a more immediate desire for the car in its higher HP/heavier version, or already at the top of their budget to stretch to the C450, not really a reason from the info released that one would pick the C400 over C450.
I imagine some the few who got into the C400 before C450 replacement was announced rapidly trading up, so should there may be some real good CPO C400 bargains soon.
Still leaves original post, unless someone has a more immediate desire for the car in its higher HP/heavier version, or already at the top of their budget to stretch to the C450, not really a reason from the info released that one would pick the C400 over C450.
I imagine some the few who got into the C400 before C450 replacement was announced rapidly trading up, so should there may be some real good CPO C400 bargains soon.
Last edited by floridadriver; 12-13-2014 at 06:16 AM.
#96
Super Moderator
As mentioned above. MBUSA does some strange things.
#97
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'13 C350, '13 GLK250
Sadly these are the realities of retail pricing in Canada. But it's a misnomer to add in the mandatory taxes and imply the car costs $80k CDN. Yeah, at the end of the day you gotta pay your taxes but so does everyone else. I've spec'd out a fully jammed C400 at approx. $65k CDN which is retail list. This doesn't include the additional freight, bs taxes and our 13% gov't tax. Taxes are generally non negotiable lol but the list price and some of the dealer charges are so.....at the end of the day all I'm worried about are the negotiables. And if I can work off between 5 and 6% from the list, it's probably a good day.
Now...back on track and the reason I joined MB World. I've owned BMW's, many of them, for more than 30 years. I'm an enthusiast and track at least once per year. A year and a half ago I got tired of the money BMW wasn't giving me for my trades and threatened to go to MB. They said I'd never switch. Now I own 2 of them because the Benz dealer was fantastic with my trades. Long story short, my daily driver is the C350 4Matic. It's a tank and the quality is brilliant. Same goes for the dog hauler GLK. Not quite the drivers cars that my BMW's have been and thus the reason for posting here. I want a drivers car again so I'm waiting patiently for the NAIAS debut of the C450. I'm obviously considering the C63 as well but the price might be more than I'm willing to pay. If MB does to their AMG Performance line what BMW did to their M Performance equivalent (I use the M235 and M235 xDrive as examples because they are brilliant), then I have no doubt the C450 will be equally so. The stakes are high and MB isn't stupid.
Another important criteria for me as a daily driver is the security of AWD. And I don't restrict the benefits to snow. I'm an aggressive (safely aggressive to be clear) driver and have benefitted from my AWD cars year round. I don't want to get into the usual BMW forum arguments about AWD not being suitable for a performance car so please don't attack me on this one. Yet another reason why I'm hoping the C450 will shine...perhaps a little 4Matic tweaking by the AMG folks to accompany their suspension and brake upgrades will be in order? If so, thank-you AMG!! It'll help with the decision.
Anyways, fingers crossed. I loved the C400 when I drove it...miles ahead of my current C350. But even with the airmatic agility setting dialed in to the ultimate, I could feel that it wasn't quite "there for me" if you can understand. I could have bought the car on the spot and probably would have been very happy with it. But I'm looking for ecstatic again so I'm going to wait patiently. I'm number 1 on my dealers list for the C450 and number 2 for a C63 so I'm prepared to attack on either front lol.
Thanks for reading people.
Now...back on track and the reason I joined MB World. I've owned BMW's, many of them, for more than 30 years. I'm an enthusiast and track at least once per year. A year and a half ago I got tired of the money BMW wasn't giving me for my trades and threatened to go to MB. They said I'd never switch. Now I own 2 of them because the Benz dealer was fantastic with my trades. Long story short, my daily driver is the C350 4Matic. It's a tank and the quality is brilliant. Same goes for the dog hauler GLK. Not quite the drivers cars that my BMW's have been and thus the reason for posting here. I want a drivers car again so I'm waiting patiently for the NAIAS debut of the C450. I'm obviously considering the C63 as well but the price might be more than I'm willing to pay. If MB does to their AMG Performance line what BMW did to their M Performance equivalent (I use the M235 and M235 xDrive as examples because they are brilliant), then I have no doubt the C450 will be equally so. The stakes are high and MB isn't stupid.
Another important criteria for me as a daily driver is the security of AWD. And I don't restrict the benefits to snow. I'm an aggressive (safely aggressive to be clear) driver and have benefitted from my AWD cars year round. I don't want to get into the usual BMW forum arguments about AWD not being suitable for a performance car so please don't attack me on this one. Yet another reason why I'm hoping the C450 will shine...perhaps a little 4Matic tweaking by the AMG folks to accompany their suspension and brake upgrades will be in order? If so, thank-you AMG!! It'll help with the decision.
Anyways, fingers crossed. I loved the C400 when I drove it...miles ahead of my current C350. But even with the airmatic agility setting dialed in to the ultimate, I could feel that it wasn't quite "there for me" if you can understand. I could have bought the car on the spot and probably would have been very happy with it. But I'm looking for ecstatic again so I'm going to wait patiently. I'm number 1 on my dealers list for the C450 and number 2 for a C63 so I'm prepared to attack on either front lol.
Thanks for reading people.
#98
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2014 CLS550 4Matic
Sadly these are the realities of retail pricing in Canada. But it's a misnomer to add in the mandatory taxes and imply the car costs $80k CDN. Yeah, at the end of the day you gotta pay your taxes but so does everyone else. I've spec'd out a fully jammed C400 at approx. $65k CDN which is retail list. This doesn't include the additional freight, bs taxes and our 13% gov't tax. Taxes are generally non negotiable lol but the list price and some of the dealer charges are so.....at the end of the day all I'm worried about are the negotiables. And if I can work off between 5 and 6% from the list, it's probably a good day.
Now...back on track and the reason I joined MB World. I've owned BMW's, many of them, for more than 30 years. I'm an enthusiast and track at least once per year. A year and a half ago I got tired of the money BMW wasn't giving me for my trades and threatened to go to MB. They said I'd never switch. Now I own 2 of them because the Benz dealer was fantastic with my trades. Long story short, my daily driver is the C350 4Matic. It's a tank and the quality is brilliant. Same goes for the dog hauler GLK. Not quite the drivers cars that my BMW's have been and thus the reason for posting here. I want a drivers car again so I'm waiting patiently for the NAIAS debut of the C450. I'm obviously considering the C63 as well but the price might be more than I'm willing to pay. If MB does to their AMG Performance line what BMW did to their M Performance equivalent (I use the M235 and M235 xDrive as examples because they are brilliant), then I have no doubt the C450 will be equally so. The stakes are high and MB isn't stupid.
Another important criteria for me as a daily driver is the security of AWD. And I don't restrict the benefits to snow. I'm an aggressive (safely aggressive to be clear) driver and have benefitted from my AWD cars year round. I don't want to get into the usual BMW forum arguments about AWD not being suitable for a performance car so please don't attack me on this one. Yet another reason why I'm hoping the C450 will shine...perhaps a little 4Matic tweaking by the AMG folks to accompany their suspension and brake upgrades will be in order? If so, thank-you AMG!! It'll help with the decision.
Anyways, fingers crossed. I loved the C400 when I drove it...miles ahead of my current C350. But even with the airmatic agility setting dialed in to the ultimate, I could feel that it wasn't quite "there for me" if you can understand. I could have bought the car on the spot and probably would have been very happy with it. But I'm looking for ecstatic again so I'm going to wait patiently. I'm number 1 on my dealers list for the C450 and number 2 for a C63 so I'm prepared to attack on either front lol.
Thanks for reading people.
Now...back on track and the reason I joined MB World. I've owned BMW's, many of them, for more than 30 years. I'm an enthusiast and track at least once per year. A year and a half ago I got tired of the money BMW wasn't giving me for my trades and threatened to go to MB. They said I'd never switch. Now I own 2 of them because the Benz dealer was fantastic with my trades. Long story short, my daily driver is the C350 4Matic. It's a tank and the quality is brilliant. Same goes for the dog hauler GLK. Not quite the drivers cars that my BMW's have been and thus the reason for posting here. I want a drivers car again so I'm waiting patiently for the NAIAS debut of the C450. I'm obviously considering the C63 as well but the price might be more than I'm willing to pay. If MB does to their AMG Performance line what BMW did to their M Performance equivalent (I use the M235 and M235 xDrive as examples because they are brilliant), then I have no doubt the C450 will be equally so. The stakes are high and MB isn't stupid.
Another important criteria for me as a daily driver is the security of AWD. And I don't restrict the benefits to snow. I'm an aggressive (safely aggressive to be clear) driver and have benefitted from my AWD cars year round. I don't want to get into the usual BMW forum arguments about AWD not being suitable for a performance car so please don't attack me on this one. Yet another reason why I'm hoping the C450 will shine...perhaps a little 4Matic tweaking by the AMG folks to accompany their suspension and brake upgrades will be in order? If so, thank-you AMG!! It'll help with the decision.
Anyways, fingers crossed. I loved the C400 when I drove it...miles ahead of my current C350. But even with the airmatic agility setting dialed in to the ultimate, I could feel that it wasn't quite "there for me" if you can understand. I could have bought the car on the spot and probably would have been very happy with it. But I'm looking for ecstatic again so I'm going to wait patiently. I'm number 1 on my dealers list for the C450 and number 2 for a C63 so I'm prepared to attack on either front lol.
Thanks for reading people.
As for BMW vs. MB... It seems Mercedes just quite doesn't have the same level of driving experience when push comes to shove as BMW, but there are other qualities that I like better in MB. I hope AMG has some decent influence on the pending C450 to enhance its driving experience and make it a great success. I wonder, is the C450 even going to offered in 4Matic?
#99
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'13 C350, '13 GLK250
I'm with you Mark on the AWD. I wasn't a fan of it at first going from C350 and E350 RWD to E350 4Matic. But getting into a 4Matic (CLS550) with proper power really opened my eyes. I can be more aggressive (faster) and have larger safety margin hustling my CLS550 4Matic up my favorite curvy back road versus our same powered E550 Cabriolet. Also, off the line is just stupid easy with the 4Matic - I can beat my coworker's '14 SL550 0-60mph every time just simply because that RWD 550 doesn't have enough traction to make a good launch.
As for BMW vs. MB... It seems Mercedes just quite doesn't have the same level of driving experience when push comes to shove as BMW, but there are other qualities that I like better in MB. I hope AMG has some decent influence on the pending C450 to enhance its driving experience and make it a great success. I wonder, is the C450 even going to offered in 4Matic?
As for BMW vs. MB... It seems Mercedes just quite doesn't have the same level of driving experience when push comes to shove as BMW, but there are other qualities that I like better in MB. I hope AMG has some decent influence on the pending C450 to enhance its driving experience and make it a great success. I wonder, is the C450 even going to offered in 4Matic?