Front tyre wear - C250 UK - Castor Effects on Camber & tyre shoulder wear
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Read this excellent article for dummies on castor effect on camber on cars like Benz that run very high caster angles. Negates everything Eilers states.
http://www.import-car.com/using-cast...lign-vehicles/
Particularly take note of castor/caster "Effects On Tire Wear" ~ (Tyre in my neck of the woods)
http://www.import-car.com/using-cast...lign-vehicles/
Particularly take note of castor/caster "Effects On Tire Wear" ~ (Tyre in my neck of the woods)
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; Apr 8, 2015 at 06:48 PM.
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From: Italy
'07 CLK 320 CDI
Anyone knows the stock alignment specs of w205? I'll definitely install camber bolts or K-mac, but I would be glad to avoid the 480$ expense of the latter to reach a degree and a half of negative camber.
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From: 1 hours drive north of Sydney Australia
2007 W204 220CDI Classic Sedan
Doesn't seem to pull with the camber. Why have the different setting for each wheel?
Slight concern that hitting some of the large pot holes in our UK roads might have knocked things out of true - but the wear is the same both sides so I suppose this is less likely.
Slight concern that hitting some of the large pot holes in our UK roads might have knocked things out of true - but the wear is the same both sides so I suppose this is less likely.
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Sorry ~ I don't but they will be pre programmed into any Bean, Hunter or whatever alignment machine your decent tyre shop uses. All the modern machines have internet connectivity & are constantly updated as new models hit the market. The Benz fluted bolt solution is cheap. Bolt part numbers might have changed for 205. The 018 bolt was pretty universal prior to now.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; Apr 11, 2015 at 08:02 AM.
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
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Joined: Jul 2011
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From: Italy
'07 CLK 320 CDI
Sorry ~ I don't but they will be pre programmed into any Bean, Hunter or whatever alignment machine your decent tyre shop uses. All the modern machines have internet connectivity & are constantly updated as new models hit the market. The Benz fluted bolt solution is cheap. Bolt part numbers might have changed for 205. The 018 bolt was pretty universal prior to now.
Front silentblock is common with R231 SL, and from image I saw on the web seems a standard silent block that accepts slotted bolts. At this point I can only wait and learn more seeing the suspension when my car will be actually delivered.
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Reading on EPC and WIS it seems that stock camber is about 0°30' and correction is available only with replacement bushings that change angle a negligible quarter of a degree, that means I must fork out the cash for kmacs.
Front silentblock is common with R231 SL, and from image I saw on the web seems a standard silent block that accepts slotted bolts. At this point I can only wait and learn more seeing the suspension when my car will be actually delivered.
Front silentblock is common with R231 SL, and from image I saw on the web seems a standard silent block that accepts slotted bolts. At this point I can only wait and learn more seeing the suspension when my car will be actually delivered.
Doing the Castor offset & going greater negative Camber will improve handling at the limit. The only downside is that it makes the car more inclined to tramline. i.e. follow imperfections in the road. But as long as you hang onto the steering wheel that's fine.
I always replace all 4 bolts on my cars. 2 X Castor & 2 X Camber. Then I can set it up the way I want it.
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From: 1 hours drive north of Sydney Australia
2007 W204 220CDI Classic Sedan
Yes Glyn,
I bought them to fix the rear inside tyre wear on Bridgestones .
With the decent Michelins you suggested & rotation I have not had to use them as yet.
My alignment was well within MB specs so I decided that I prefer the road holding performance & put up with a little extra inside wear on the rear.
A little less toe on the front fixed my front inside wear.
I realised that two equally set up suspensions can wear tyres differently depending on driving styles & conditions (steep gravel roads etc).
JC
I bought them to fix the rear inside tyre wear on Bridgestones .
With the decent Michelins you suggested & rotation I have not had to use them as yet.
My alignment was well within MB specs so I decided that I prefer the road holding performance & put up with a little extra inside wear on the rear.
A little less toe on the front fixed my front inside wear.
I realised that two equally set up suspensions can wear tyres differently depending on driving styles & conditions (steep gravel roads etc).
JC
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Joined: Jun 2008
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Yes Glyn,
I bought them to fix the rear inside tyre wear on Bridgestones .
With the decent Michelins you suggested & rotation I have not had to use them as yet.
My alignment was well within MB specs so I decided that I prefer the road holding performance & put up with a little extra inside wear on the rear.
A little less toe on the front fixed my front inside wear.
I realised that two equally set up suspensions can wear tyres differently depending on driving styles & conditions (steep gravel roads etc).
JC
I bought them to fix the rear inside tyre wear on Bridgestones .
With the decent Michelins you suggested & rotation I have not had to use them as yet.
My alignment was well within MB specs so I decided that I prefer the road holding performance & put up with a little extra inside wear on the rear.
A little less toe on the front fixed my front inside wear.
I realised that two equally set up suspensions can wear tyres differently depending on driving styles & conditions (steep gravel roads etc).
JC
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S205
Glyn M Ruck trying hard to escape the subject, trying to make it seem like he was talking about Camber angles and not Caster angles all along..tsk tsk..
Even editing his own posts (post no. 12) to disguise it..pathetic..
Let's not forget Glyn M ruck telling the thread starter to "go and get the Caster angle adjusted" Something which we have now established is not possible less you fit a special Bolt Kit.
Even with the bolt kit, you do not adjust Caster angle with the same bolt as you adjust Camber angle. Something Glyn M Ruck also only realised later on in this thread..
It is a fact that Caster angle has no or very little effect on tire wear. You can read the so called article Glyn M Ruck linked to earlier (in a desperate attempt to save face) The article even supports this fact.
If you are still in doubt, or even care who is right here, - then go talk to your local tire specialist. Tell him that you want him to adjust the caster angle on your W205, because your tires have excess wear on the outside. Then listen to what he tells you..
Even editing his own posts (post no. 12) to disguise it..pathetic..
Let's not forget Glyn M ruck telling the thread starter to "go and get the Caster angle adjusted" Something which we have now established is not possible less you fit a special Bolt Kit.
Even with the bolt kit, you do not adjust Caster angle with the same bolt as you adjust Camber angle. Something Glyn M Ruck also only realised later on in this thread..
It is a fact that Caster angle has no or very little effect on tire wear. You can read the so called article Glyn M Ruck linked to earlier (in a desperate attempt to save face) The article even supports this fact.
If you are still in doubt, or even care who is right here, - then go talk to your local tire specialist. Tell him that you want him to adjust the caster angle on your W205, because your tires have excess wear on the outside. Then listen to what he tells you..
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Wrong ~ and note the time & date of my mod to post number 12. It was done before this nonsense started with Eilers disagreement to make the post more complete. It was done a few minutes after the original post. Anybody that knows anything about a Benz knows about the fluted bolt replacement for standard bolt in the centre position.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; Apr 12, 2015 at 07:18 AM.
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
See I modified the above post as well a few minutes later to make it more complete. Suggest you read all the posts I have made on the W203 & W204 & W209 forums over the years on the subject. I clearly know where the 4 bolts go & of their existence & purpose. I built most of the Wiki with Johnand.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; Apr 14, 2015 at 08:38 AM.
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
And I see Eilers is modifying posts live right now. Castor angle on a Benz has a direct bearing on front tyre shoulder wear due to the effect it has on camber in a turn. The sharper the turn the greater the effect. e.g. when going around a traffic circle it scrubs the shoulder to a greater extent on the INSIDE front wheel in the turn (speed dependent ~ slower the more it effects the inside wheel). Counter intuitive as that may seem. Yes it is also scrubbing the shoulder of the outer wheel at the same time.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; Apr 12, 2015 at 11:49 AM.
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From: 1 hours drive north of Sydney Australia
2007 W204 220CDI Classic Sedan
Glyn , you have a lot of support on this forum mate. I have know you almost since we bought our W204 in late 2007 & have gained immeasurable knowledge as a result of your posts.Thank you.
On the very occasional times you make an error ,you do your research & make it right immediately. That is the only way one survives in the engineering world & you have spent a life time in it.
Mr Eilers , you are acting like a goose & are showing very little respect for anyone.. You cannot even post your location information. Obviously you had your bat & ball taken from you as a child & have never recovered.
Lets hope common sense , some humour & better manners can prevail.
Carsy.
On the very occasional times you make an error ,you do your research & make it right immediately. That is the only way one survives in the engineering world & you have spent a life time in it.
Mr Eilers , you are acting like a goose & are showing very little respect for anyone.. You cannot even post your location information. Obviously you had your bat & ball taken from you as a child & have never recovered.
Lets hope common sense , some humour & better manners can prevail.
Carsy.
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Glyn , you have a lot of support on this forum mate. I have know you almost since we bought our W204 in late 2007 & have gained immeasurable knowledge as a result of your posts.Thank you.
On the very occasional times you make an error ,you do your research & make it right immediately. That is the only way one survives in the engineering world & you have spent a life time in it.
Mr Eilers , you are acting like a goose & are showing very little respect for anyone.. You cannot even post your location information. Obviously you had your bat & ball taken from you as a child & have never recovered.
Lets hope common sense , some humour & better manners can prevail.
Carsy.
On the very occasional times you make an error ,you do your research & make it right immediately. That is the only way one survives in the engineering world & you have spent a life time in it.
Mr Eilers , you are acting like a goose & are showing very little respect for anyone.. You cannot even post your location information. Obviously you had your bat & ball taken from you as a child & have never recovered.
Lets hope common sense , some humour & better manners can prevail.
Carsy.
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Anybody that consults their tyre shop should find one that knows Benz. Due to Benz high market share in SA MBSA has knocked the fluted bolt solution into their heads. All SA tyre shops even carry the bolts in stock for aligning Benzes.
Remember that a Benz with it's camber set in spec can still wear front tyre shoulders due to toe & castor.
Eilers is somewhere in Europe ~ Dutch, Belgian, Swiss??? I could look up where his ISP is located but could not be bothered.
Remember that a Benz with it's camber set in spec can still wear front tyre shoulders due to toe & castor.
Eilers is somewhere in Europe ~ Dutch, Belgian, Swiss??? I could look up where his ISP is located but could not be bothered.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; Apr 13, 2015 at 06:43 AM.
Thread Starter
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From: Leeds UK
C250 AMG Prem +
Haven't had the time to get a dealers view of the wear but in answer to Carsy I am running Pirelli P Zeros on the 19" wheels with Steel springs.
Most of my mileage is motorways.
Hopefully get the dealers input next week
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
No can of worms ~ don't worry. Let's hope it's just the toe that's out. Try & get a printout of your car before & after alignment.
Thread Starter
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From: Leeds UK
C250 AMG Prem +
Update - basically everything was out of spec - Camber /Toe the lot!!!
All been corrected but couldn't get any numbers at time.
To be fair to MB I think the damage was done on a pothole which I remember hitting hard and expecting the tyre to go.
Charged me £200 for the check which is not too bad - I remember BMW trying to charge me £400+ a few years ago.
All been corrected but couldn't get any numbers at time.
To be fair to MB I think the damage was done on a pothole which I remember hitting hard and expecting the tyre to go.
Charged me £200 for the check which is not too bad - I remember BMW trying to charge me £400+ a few years ago.
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Pity you did not get a printout. Pleased it's fixed anyway. My CLK Camber & toe are in spec but still bad shoulder wear. Will sort out now at tyre change. I want to get these damn Conti SC3's off of the car anyway & go to Michelin PS3's
EDIT: If the camber was out that means you have bent something. Frame mount or Camber arm.
EDIT: If the camber was out that means you have bent something. Frame mount or Camber arm.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; Apr 22, 2015 at 06:22 PM.
Thread Starter
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From: Leeds UK
C250 AMG Prem +
Update on my tyre wear issues:
I have now covered 9500 miles and my nearside front tyre outside edge is completely bare of tread and the offside is not far behind.
The alignment adjustments clearly did nothing to solve the problem.
As I mentioned initially most of the mileage is motorway work so assuming the Dealer did the alignment correctly I am completely at a loss as to what may be the issue.
I did note Glyn's comment re Camber angle and will follow this up again.
One thing is certain that I had not budgeted for £800 worth of front tyres a year!!!!
I have now covered 9500 miles and my nearside front tyre outside edge is completely bare of tread and the offside is not far behind.
The alignment adjustments clearly did nothing to solve the problem.
As I mentioned initially most of the mileage is motorway work so assuming the Dealer did the alignment correctly I am completely at a loss as to what may be the issue.
I did note Glyn's comment re Camber angle and will follow this up again.
One thing is certain that I had not budgeted for £800 worth of front tyres a year!!!!
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2008
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From: 1 hours drive north of Sydney Australia
2007 W204 220CDI Classic Sedan
Update on my tyre wear issues:
I have now covered 9500 miles and my nearside front tyre outside edge is completely bare of tread and the offside is not far behind.
The alignment adjustments clearly did nothing to solve the problem.
As I mentioned initially most of the mileage is motorway work so assuming the Dealer did the alignment correctly I am completely at a loss as to what may be the issue.
I did note Glyn's comment re Camber angle and will follow this up again.
One thing is certain that I had not budgeted for £800 worth of front tyres a year!!!!
I have now covered 9500 miles and my nearside front tyre outside edge is completely bare of tread and the offside is not far behind.
The alignment adjustments clearly did nothing to solve the problem.
As I mentioned initially most of the mileage is motorway work so assuming the Dealer did the alignment correctly I am completely at a loss as to what may be the issue.
I did note Glyn's comment re Camber angle and will follow this up again.
One thing is certain that I had not budgeted for £800 worth of front tyres a year!!!!
I would not have expected the newly adjusted settings to make much difference to your already heavy tyre wear. It is almost impossible to correct once badly worn.
With new tyres the adjustments should be apparent . I would have the tyre shop check the front alignment again after fitting the new tyres.
Interested to know how you go.
JC
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From: Italy
'07 CLK 320 CDI
I resurrect this thread...
I installed H&R lowering springs and K-Mac front camber kit yesterday, then I had my car aligned.
Adjusting K-Mac camber kit is a PITA (they're not meant to give easy access), but I have now -1,7° of camber and caster near the maximum.
Problem is that with lowering springs I have -2,6° of rear camber, that is insane and will destroy my tires.
In about a month I'll fit rear camber arms to correct this, and I'll recheck front alignment, locking finally bolts with their tab.
I have only two worries with them:
- 1. that they move and don't keep the setting.
I put the car again today on the alignment bench after a bit of spirited driving and it seems that they haven't moved, so far so good.
- 2. that they will wear out in a few thousand kms.
They seem reputable, I hope that this won't be the case. Even if Kevin at K-Mac, that has always been very helpful, sends me another set free of charge, fitting them is very expensive (150€ at a more than friendly rate) and I want to leave them alone for at least a few years.
Only time will tell, and I'll update with my findings... However, I can say that my car feels much more alive and all of the artificial understeer it had is gone. In low speed corners she doesn't seem to be the same car as before =D
I installed H&R lowering springs and K-Mac front camber kit yesterday, then I had my car aligned.
Adjusting K-Mac camber kit is a PITA (they're not meant to give easy access), but I have now -1,7° of camber and caster near the maximum.
Problem is that with lowering springs I have -2,6° of rear camber, that is insane and will destroy my tires.
In about a month I'll fit rear camber arms to correct this, and I'll recheck front alignment, locking finally bolts with their tab.
I have only two worries with them:
- 1. that they move and don't keep the setting.
I put the car again today on the alignment bench after a bit of spirited driving and it seems that they haven't moved, so far so good.
- 2. that they will wear out in a few thousand kms.
They seem reputable, I hope that this won't be the case. Even if Kevin at K-Mac, that has always been very helpful, sends me another set free of charge, fitting them is very expensive (150€ at a more than friendly rate) and I want to leave them alone for at least a few years.
Only time will tell, and I'll update with my findings... However, I can say that my car feels much more alive and all of the artificial understeer it had is gone. In low speed corners she doesn't seem to be the same car as before =D
