Ironjim1

So most of us know the issues with the 2015 c class. The biggest being the piston "wrist pin" issue. I just got my car back after being at the dealer for a week having the engine removed and rebuilt as a result of this.
The only reason this happened was my being a member of this form and having a good ear for the ticking in the engine and seeking out additional info.
How many Benz owners never noticed this sound and are unaware of this problem. As a result they just continue to drive their car and do damage to the engine for months or years. I have lost a great deal of faith in this brand that they would not simply notify their owners and have them bring the cars back for a quick check to make sure their car is not plagued with this issue. Instead they allow their customers to continue to drive these automobiles with no knowledge of this issue and the fact that they may be continuing to do damage to their cars. Unless they have an owner with a keen sense of the ticking in the engine or know of this issue due to being a member of the form such as this. No recall, no notice, no bulletin, no concern for their customers! A real disappointment!

janusgrimnitz

whats this sound you mention?

MASSC450

Mercedes is not the only car manufacturer with issues, it's all of them. No one car manufacturer is perfect...or even close to it.

I consider myself very fortunate that I bring my car to an excellent dealership that I trust...one of the main reasons for buying my Mercedes since an issue like "wrist pins" I believe they would have caught.

StanNH

I also had my dealer check for wrist pin sounds when my car was in for service and they heard nothing unusual. I also can hear nothing odd in the engine.

None of us know how widespread this issue is, and MB is unlikely to ever release numbers. My own dealer said they had not done any wrist pin repairs as of last month.

whippet007

Which motor is having the wrist pin issue?

Randymrm

I have thought of this many times. MB is content to let this issue become an out of warranty issue down the road. Of course they know which engines have the wrist pin defect or at least need to be examined for the issue.
And of course all car manufacturers have issues. Its how they deal with issues that differentiates them. I expected more from MB. Ignoring this issue and pushing this on to their customers to discover sooner or later is a disgrace to the brand.
And I suppose some dealers may be proactive in informing their customers. Mine wasn't, I had to push them to acknowledge the issue.
I am grateful to this forum for exposing this issue to me.

Ironjim1

Well Said !

StanNH

I would assume that MB does not know which engines are affected by defective wrist pins. I had a similar issue with a 2005 Corvette, when GM found that a range of engines had been assembled with improperly torqued bolts. It's not until the defect has been discovered and rectified that a cutoff VIN or production date can be established. It is then almost impossible to know which engines got the defective part, since more than one supplier may be used for the same part. The supplier may not even know how many bad parts were in a given shipment. So,very often,an "at risk" range its established and then problems are dealt with as they are reported. This is how most auto makers handle this kind of problem, unless it is a safety issue which would require a recall. In the case of a TSB, which is what this is,there is also often an extended date applied which goes beyond the normal warranty. I don't know if MB did that with the wrist pin issue.

Randymrm

Stan, I appreciate your defense of the brand but MB's behavior, IMHO, is indefensible.
Each engine block is barcoded and every part that goes into that block comes from a parts bin that is barcoded too. There is a clear association and audit trail between the block and the parts that go into that block. MB’s decision to be reactive rather than proactive is a clear financial and marketing choice and a disservice to their customers.
Additionally, there is no extended warranty associated with the TSB. If you do not fight for an extended warranty, you don’t get one.
This should not the behavior of a premier brand.

Ironjim1

Mercedes clearly knows this condition effected the 2015 C Class and from my understanding, mostly the early builds. They have made a clear choice not to notify
owners to have their cars checked or make them aware. My wife has a 2013 C Class. When she drove my car I would ask her, do you hear that ticking? She had no idea what I was talking about. She thought that is just how the engine sounds. How many others are just driving these cars oblivious to the situation and not recognizing the sound as something to be investigated. Many will drive these cars right out of the warranty period and at some point , have a pretty unpleasant surprise. Their silence is deafening with regards to this issue ! Very Disappointed in the Brand !

iluvdaBenz

Does the wrist pin issue affect some 2016 C450s ? I am hearing some strange sounds from my car's engine.

Shadwell

just to comment on factory manuf..


This is a tolerance stack up issue..
All manuf track the part no's and batches from suppliers and onto vehicles.
This works well for single part defect tracking.
When you have parts which are within a range (ie ok by design) individually but as an assembly IF you mate one part top end tolerance to other part bottum end tolerance.. the ID on a collective NG condition is no longer clear.


Only once you reduce the range of tolerance across the collective parts to guarantee the issue does not manifest can you make a cut off point.. .
So all engines before that cut off have the "potential" as they were manuf to the design condition which could permit the issue..
BUT and this is important.. many engines within the potential NG time range will be fine.. for the full life of the product.. makes things grey..


This is not a cheap repair, and the only detection method is from engine noise. SOME owners will detect it, others not.. some delaers will detect the border line cases, others not... .Its all very subjective..... ie not black and white... which doesn't help matters, for them or us..


The best outcome we can reasonably expect IMO is:-
A supportive ear when we raise the issue (some get this others have had bad experinces and thats not OK).
Definitive judgement and record keeping of the query (those in the know will seek this, average owners wouldn't and thats not great).
Prompt resolution when confirmed as the issue (within the constraints of carrying out a major repair with parts leadtimes).
Generous support post warranty for the border line cases which may manifest with age / change of owner...... (this one will be the toughie.. as some instance may be under good will... and that varies massively dependant on the dealr and relationship.. its not right but its true..).


So all in all its a tough situation... MB are doing what they ought to to the best of their ability.
Dealers or rather service departments are doing what they do.. ie a very varied outcome..


My s205 has been and continues to have a myriad of issues but coming from auto manuf design and engineering i at least understand the environment, so its easier to see where the "good job" and "not so good" actions are coming from...


mines back again tomorrow for a replacement stereo camera assy.. 3k aud in parts.. again on warranty.. so i am getting a 2016 car piece by piece...

Shadwell

Here is the issue in your case... the dealers action vs. your expectation.
many issues are dealt with in the background without owners knowing about them (and for most owners thats their preferance.. ie just amake it right and give it back to me... enthusiasts are a different breed).. , agree not of this magnitude but NO dealer reviews every car for every isse which exists for that vehicle.. they reposnd to customer requests queries..


IF they try to deny and refuse to support a clear and known issue that you are 100% right.. thats inexcuseable, but it doesn't seem that has happened here..

ItalianJoe1

OP,

This sounds like you making this out to be a bigger deal than it really is.

How many cars are really affected? You realize, out of tens of thousands of w205s, lets say 100 have a wrist pin noise. Those 100 people, half go online to complain because they are sensitive, picky consumers who pride themselves on getting every penny they can from MB and bragging about it or making it a big deal. So average Joe comes on here, reads 50 threads about wrist pins, says holy ****, these engines are terrible!

The reality is that it's a noise concern, not engines exploding, not safety related (yes I'm aware of the fact that left unchecked, excessive piston pin wear could render an engine useless but that's long after it's developed a horrible knocking noise in 99% of circumstances), and just isn't that big of a deal. Are dealers fixing it when they find it? Of course. Do you expect them to replace/rebuild engines just as a preventative measure? Don't be ridiculous.

Mike5215

It's a noise concern that, if left unrepaired, gets progressively worse and would eventually destroy the engine. The wrist pins being out of tolerance allows the pistons to bang around against the cylinder walls. The more they do this, the looser the wrist pins get. Catching it early when it's just a noise possibly spares the block.

MB should probably be more proactive in catching these before the cars slip out of warranty, or extend the warranty period for this specific issue. It's a bit of a PR nightmare for them, which might explain their reluctance.

mmaldin

ItalianJoe1

Proactive, meaning what exactly? Tearing down engines to measure pin clearances? Checking every single car that comes in through service for what exactly, a noise that isn't as quiet as a comparable car? What's the baseline? These DI engines are terribly noisy in general when under the hood. There's no catching them, it's a fault and it happens. A warranty extension might be nice but MB doesn't have a great history of that (See 6.2L head bolts/Bluetec diesel siezures/oil failures).

Similar case : Honda Civic, 2006-2010 or so. Every single 1.8L engine in every base model civic, 100,000+ cars. The blocks can develop a crack/leak/porosity condition where coolant leaks. Left unchecked, or low coolant lights ignored by customers, results in a gross overheat and a fried engine. Honda extended warranty coverage on the block for this issue to 10yr/150k miles I believe well after the cars were out of warranty. This issue resulted in THOUSANDS of shortblocks replaced under warranty. Far more than these 205s will have. And there's still lots of them that were over mileage where the customer was on their own to replace the engine out of pocket if it happened late in the life of the car.

Mike5215

A voluntary recall of cars that were built before the defect was discovered for a free diagnostic to rule it out seems like a good start. A goodwill 24 month extension of the drivetrain warranty for a cars that were affected might help.

MB techs are already able to tell simply by listening that an engine is effected. It's on the basis of their ability to discern that specific noise from other noises that has lead to every one of the engine rebuilds done so far for the wrist pin issue.

So if they're aware of the problem, and have a way to diagnose it, being proactive would be a matter of actively contacting owners, fixing the defect and extending the warranty.

Shadwell

Hi Mike,


A voluntary recall could be handled IF they had a more defined range of applicable vehicles than M274 2.0 blocks from SOP (start of production) to date x..
As it stands without that the range of "recall" would be very big and very expensive. Balanced against the number of actual cases in total they have dealt with (appreciate its only part of the population of NG vehicles) its perhaps mathmatically an "over reaction" to the volume of NG....
I understand that means jack to any owner faced with a NG vehicle that needs sorting... .


MB have likely have undertaken a risk assesmsnt and would have the issue confirmed as present by techs at first service / subsequent service / and when issue is raised by customer.. Hard to know what formal instruction IF any has been made re the issue to the Service sector..


My local service manager is certainly aware of the issue but confirmed they have had to repair very few.. as in on one hand to date..


Anyway... for me from an engineering stand point is the likelhood of incidence escalation due to wear & tear... ie what happens to a border line case at 200000kms.. .and how likely are MB to be supportive in anyway in that case... hmmmmm


Anyway all the best..

gfmohn

Welcome to the club (sad to say).

gfmohn

My dealer detected it and repaired it on their own motion. Good thing, my previous W203 2007 C280 made a ticking sound (at idle) the entire time I owned it, so I thought nothing of it.

gfmohn

The sum of other comments in other threads have lead me to believe that this is a design problem, not a manufacturing problem. As such, it affects all engines, not just some engines, as a manufacturing problem sometimes does. It affects engines made in Germany too. So it is not a example of shoddy American workmanship, as some have written. In a previous comment, I gave a firm cutoff date, after which engines assembled in the U.S. are okay. I believe that cutoff date was April 15, 2015, but MBWorld has apparently changed this website, so I cannot access my older posts. As Shadwell writes, not all engines will display the symptoms (the noise of piston slap). However, all engines will have the defect. The situations most problematical for the owners will be those borderline engines which are asymptomatic now, but which will become asymptomatic later, out of warranty, through wear.

Ironjim1

The issue I refer to was for 2015 C Class early builds only. My car was purchased with 11k miles on it. The dealer used it as a loaner and they serviced it including the 10k service. They sold it with the engine making that sound and never addressed it while they owned and serviced the car. ( I am sure because they never looked for it, I don't this it was intentional ) The sales manager was even driving it. One of the reasons some dealers have not done many rebuilds of this problem is most consumers are not aware of the issue, and why would they be, Mercedes has chosen not to alert them.While interesting, I could care less about tolerances, manufacturing processes, etc.
A customer should be able to have confidence when purchasing such a car that if a known issue is discovered that may very well affect their car but would be hard for the customer to detect they would be notified and there would be a system in place that would not allow drivers out on the road driving these cars with no knowledge. My dealer has performed several of these rebuilds. I am guessing this is a gift that will keep on giving to owners of these cars as the years go by and the issue becomes more evident. Sad a brand I had such confidence in has chosen to neglect its customers in this way.

gfmohn

I agree with all of your points. I am amazed your car was a loaner, and your dealer didn't catch the problem. My dealership detected the problem in my car and repaired it on their own motion. It was the shop foreman who detected the problem when he test-drove it concerning the wind noise problem. The sales manager of your dealership may be a little too used to explaining away problems. However, "loaner" means that your service dept. handled the car, and they should have noticed it. At the time of my repair (roughly Nov. 2015), my "small" dealership had already rebuilt over 30 engines. ("Small" was the finance manager's term. When my C300 was damaged in a hail storm, she said they had well over 400 cars on the lot, but fortunately were not hit by the hail storm. I guess that's "small.")

Turbocharged

Here is one possible scenario regarding why it can be difficult to identify which cars have a defect or not. From memory, from back in the days when I was involved in production...

There is a discipline used by most manufacturers called Configuration Management that provides a method for identifying parts, controlling changes, and recording the status of a part through the entire product life cycle from the As-Designed configuration all the way through the As-Built configuration.

When a product is designed each part that has a different physical or functional characteristic is given a unique part number. Parts that are uniquely identified can then be used in multiple places because the engineer is sure that the parts will always perform the same way since they are functionally and physically identical. If parts are properly identified then all like identified parts can theoretically be put in a single parts "bin" because they are all functionally and physically the same. Theoretically Manufacturing can use any part in that part bin because they have the assurance from Engineering that all the parts will perform in a like manner.

Hand in hand with Identification rules are Change Control rules. Anytime a change is made consideration is given to whether or not the change will cause a change in functional or physical characteristics. If it will then the part must be re-identified because it is no longer the same part. These considerations are numerous and can actually be different depending on corporate, contractual or legal requirements. These differences can include changes in dimensions, color, electrical requirements, material compositions, etc. (Remember those GM ignition switches that caught fire? One of the root causes was an engineer who didn't want to re-identify a change made to the switch because it was too much of a hassle, so ignition switches that were "good" as well as switches that had the "defect" were all identified with the same part number. By the time they realized they had a serious problem it became very difficult to identify which vehicles contained the defective switch.)

Many parts have Critical Characteristics that need to checked by manufacturing to ensure that the parts meet requirements. This characteristics can include dimensions, coatings, amperage, etc. When vendors supply parts it is the responsibility of Manufacturing to test or inspect that the parts they receive meet the contractual requirements given to the supplier (the functional and physical characteristics) as well as the critical characteristics.

Serialization is another characteristic of a part. Parts are given a serial number if they are major components, repairable items, etc. For parts that produced "in house" the manufacturer will established a serialization scheme for all parts that require a serial number. Likewise, many vendor parts will have a requirement that also include a serialization requirement. For small parts ("jelly bean" parts) there is not room for a serial number or even lot number so the items are collectively identified ("bag and tag"). All these parts need to be stored and typically they are stored in some form of "first in first out" (FIFO) storage which helps provide later analysis regarding in which sequence parts are actually consumed.

When the product is assembled records are kept of what goes into what. This Status Accounting process is used not only for the original As-Designed configuration, but also for the As-Manufactured configuration as well as the As-Built configuration. If one wants to know what is in the final product then all the parts that are consumed during manufacturing assembly need to be properly recorded. For example, on a particular date and time, assembly/part 123 SERNO 00012 will use part 456 SERNO 1034 and detail part 789 LOT 78A, etc. This identifying of what actually comprises assembly 123 SERNO 00012 is recorded in an As-Built Status Accounting system. Likewise, assembly/part 123 SERNO 00012 might be used in assembly/part 9878 SERNO 0005 which itself is then used in the "end item" VIN ABCD.

If these identification rules are followed, changed parts are properly re-identified, manufacturing properly stores different configurations (or "flavors") of parts, and status accounting records are properly maintained then the manufacturer has a much easier time locating the specific end item (or vehicle) that contains any given part.

For example, if it turns out that an alternator is prematurely shorting out and configuration management rules and records have been properly maintained then it is possible to identify the exact end item vehicles that need to be recalled to replace the alternator. However, if the parts are not properly identified, changes are not properly made, or records regarding their assembly are not maintained, then the manufacturer may need to recall multiple model years and peek under the hood of each car to see if they contain that bad alternator or not.