Stiff1

I still can't get enough power out of my car. I'll try to keep this short since it has been going on for 4 month and a lot has taken place.

It has been in a long process of trying to get my car up to power since I had a Kleemann K4 package installed in Feb. All of the components were installed with ~100 miles on the car and the break in was completed per Kleemann's instructions. I first had the car dynoed 2-9-06 and I made some very low numbers for a K4 vehicle look here to see:First K4 Results

I have had Brandon from Kleemann out here to go over the vehicle and try to resolve this issue. We came up with an answer on what we think we should do to the car to figure out if it is a mechanical issue or a computer issue. We had a new larger pulley custom made to try and get more HP. This is where I am right now with the car. I have the pulley installed and just got back from the dyno. The car is making more mid-range power but it drops back down on the top end. I still can't even crack the 460hp # anytime I have made a pull in 4th gear. In my old post I made 464hp, but that was in 3rd.

Right now it seems as though nobody really knows what to do to make any more power. We don't know if it is a mechanical or computer related problem, but we do know that the car is just making really low numbers. Since the first time I have had the car dynoed I have been to two different shops, and have had many different computer changes along with a new water pump installed, but nothing seems to make a difference. This was the first time in over 25 dyno pulls that the graph has even looked any different, yet it still peaks out at about the same number.

I'm just hoping that one of you guys who has a little more experience looking at dyno sheets or knowledge of the car can help me out on this. I feel like I paid for the K4 performance and I'm barley getting the power of a K2 package. Right now I am making 455rwhp and 542lbtq. The torque is up a little from my normal of about 520, but it still seems low, and I know that the HP is still really low.

art@kronen

What is Kleemann's projected hp and torque increase?

Stiff1

They claim 640hp and 640tq at the flywheel. I know that my tq is decent just not compared to what others have put down. My hp should be between 515-520rwhp. Since I'm only getting mid 450s every single time, I know that I am off at least 65-70rwhp if not more. I'm just trying to figure out why I can't get any higher HP numbers then this.

art@kronen

This is just a suggestion; maybe you can send the car down to Miami (RT headquarters) so they can take a look at it and try to improve your numbers.

spinsonic

Stiff, all i have to say is amazing car. hang in there buddy! and please keep us posted on the progress.

just curious; if kleeman cant figure out the problem and cant get the car up to spec, are they going to refund your funds?

Grumpy666

What's the sequence of events for the three dyno pulls above? The blue curve is distinctly different than the other two. Were they all done at the same time and dyno setup?

If I understand your post correctly, you have the standard K4 package with the addition of a larger crank pulley - IOW, more boost. Is this right?

Looking at the two similar curves, I see three problems:

1) the A/F mixture is too lean between 2500 and 4500 RPM. This should be between 12:1 and 13:1 in that range.
2) the upper RPM torque is falling off faster than it should be.
3) the torque curves are not as smooth as they should be.

#1 could just be a problem with the programming in the ECU. Did Kleemann tweak it after the first series of pulls? It could also be a problem with your fuel pressure. That's fairly easy to check.

#2 and #3 could be caused by tire slippage or S/C belt slippage. Tire slippage can be fixed with a 2x4 upside the head of the dyno operator. Since you have a non-standard pulley size, check for proper tension of the S/C belt.

One other thought - since the TB was replaced, have Kleemann check the functionality of the by-pass valve under the TB. It could be improperly set and bleeding off boost.

Have you had any diagnostics performed to check for codes? How about data logging during a dyno pull? We'll need more info to properly diagnose this (e.g, timing, IAT, manifold pressure, etc).

Stiff1

I have had the car checked many times, but I have yet to been able to come up with any codes that matter with this. Plus, what ever codes I have had, have been taken care of by the dealer. I don't have everything that you need, but I do have all of my dyno sheet that I could email someone if they were interested in helping. I did hook up a boost guage and the car is making just about 1 bar, so I am just over 14 #'s of boost right now. I hope this helps

Ted Baldwin

...............Did you do a pre-mod dyno? If so, what were your baselines like?
..............secondly, I know this has probably been checked, but look at your intercooler water pump.
.............lastly, I know it is a pain in the neck but seems you get the best results if you do the different upgrades in stages with pre and post dyno and tunning each time. You have spent so much time on this, you may wish to go component by component starting with pulley then dyno, then pulley plus ECu then dyno, then pulley ECU headers then dyno, then pulley ECU headers plus ECu after headers then dyno, then throtle body then dyno and perharps throtle body plus ECu then dyno. This is what I did on my G55 K4 and got 490 HP in 4th gear dyno which translates to 650HP in a 4wheel drive car.

...........Good luck

Ted

Stiff1

I do not have a pre mod dyno and I never did it in stages. The car was bought and within 1-1/2 weeks it was packed full of kleemann goodies. Everything was put on the car before I ever even had 100 on it.

I was told that the intercooler water pump was not working so it was replaced and redynoed. I ended up with the exact same numbers as I has before. I think that the car has a load limiter set in the ECU and it seems like nobody can find out where it is to get rid of it.

Grumpy666

Was the IC pump replaced with the factory Bosch model? Is so, this may be the cause of the upper-RPM torque loss. 14+ pounds of boost will heat the intake charge a lot more than the stock 11-12 pounds of boost. The ECU is probably pulling timing, which is causing the drop-off. I don't think the Bosch IC pump has the flow capacity to handle your boost level. You'll need to upgrade to the Johnson pump.

Your first post-mods dynos look pretty good - except for the upper-RPM A/F ratios. See how the HP curves flatten after 5000 RPM, where the ratios dip to 10:1? Notice that the red HP curve is about 20 HP higher than the other two? This correlates with the red A/F ratio being a little higher than the others in that range. If you decide to keep the 2nd larger pulley, have Kleemann match these curves with less fuel after 5000 RPM. Also notice that these curves are corrected to SAE values. That means that they are about 3-4% less than what Kleemann would measure - the torque would be about 550 instead of 530 and HP would be about 475 instead of 460.

The 2nd pulley should have added another 25-30 HP to those numbers. Out of curiousity, why did Kleemann change the pulley? The boost level of the 1st larger pulley was OK. Were they trying to get the HP level up to their advertised values instead of figuring out what's wrong?

Since you don't have a baseline dyno, it's hard to determine if the mods are performing properly. They may be close, but your car is in the lower part of the normal power distribution.

If the car were mine, I would go back to the 1st larger pulley, tweak the A/F ratio so it doesn't dip below 11:1, upgrade to the Johnson pump, and drive it aggressively for a few days. Then I would take it to the track and establish a trap-speed baseline. This number needs to be greater than 120 mph. If it isn't, then Kleemann needs to get involved again. I would also implement data logging to see what the timing is doing at WOT.

Stiff1

Thanks for the info Grumpy. Kleemann decided to change to the larger pulley only to determine if the car was hitting a load limiter around 460rwhp and not allowing it to make any more power. This seems to make since because out of my 25+ pulls I have had the A/F at 10:1 and I've had it at about 11.5:1 with NO change in my HP numbers. No matter what we have done, including 7-10 different ECU tunes put in the car, it will not go over 459.xxrwhp on the dyno in 4th gear. Even after the pulley swap, I expected to see a higher peak number, but instead it fell right where it alway does just below 460. I know I need to take it to the track just to have some numbers, but I don't know what a K4 car should be running. Kleemann told me 12.0-12.2@120mph would be good, but I feel like I should be in the 11s without too much of a problem. What do you guys think I should run?

MG0427

Hello,

I have a cls55 K4 car, and I did 11.9 on the track and by best trap is 121.4 trap speed on my first time out. The guys on track said with more experience and track time I should be mid 11's. Kleemann Dynoed my car at 600 at the crank, the said afters few hundred miles of running it hard it should settle at about 620. I am having the car dynoed this week to get rwhp. I will let you know my results. Thanks

MG

Pacific NW Guy

is that it means something is wrong.

Mad TKD

yeah 10.1 AF ratio is way too low. For safety and power 11.1-11.5 where Grumpy said.

Just so I know and other know what does the K4 get the Boost to? I thought it was over 15lbs? If so then that really is your problem. Your not make enough boost to attain the power level that the K4 says

Ted Baldwin

..............12.0-12.2 secs in the quatermile is what a stock E55 or CLS55 does. Kleemann may be downplaying your expections by giving you those figures for a K4. You are correct that your car should be in the mid 11's.

..........I think your car may not be quite as off the mark as you think. In order to get customers, a lot of tuners kinda inflated their HP numbers a bit, Kleemann included. According to Kleemann, a K4 should be making upwards of 500rwhp. That is a bit off an exergeration in my mind. There maybe one or two such cars. Now that customers have come to expect these numbers, the tuners don't know what to say. I think lack of a baseline dyno is the main problem. Stock AMGV8K's have dynoed anywhere from 389 to 420. So if your car is in low range, you may actually be fine. If it were me, I'll take everything out, reflash the ECU to stock and dyno the car stock and go from there.........but I'm a bit crazy, but then you have spent almost as much time tinkering with everything.

........MG0427 says his car dynoed at 600crank HP, your car with 464rwhp is making 575HP at the crank, not much different from 600. The idea that the car with 600crank HP is going to pick up another 25HP is a way for the tuner to settle your mind that you will one day reach the promised land.

...........more importantly, your car is making an amazing 533rwtorque.....that is 670lbft of torque at the crank. To many, 575HP and 670lbft of torque will be significantly faster than one with the promised 600HP but less torque. So, a bit of perspective is needed. Take your car to the track and see what you car can do.

Ted

Grumpy666

The boost level of a K2, K3, or K4 will probably be between 12 and 13 pounds. The addition of the headers/downpipe reduces a restriction in the exhaust caused by the stock exhaust manifold/cat, and increases flow. This increased flow will cause the boost level to be reduced. A K1 will probably have about 13-14 pounds of boost.

rflow306

Just a suggestion but you need to data-log your runs. If the car does have some sort of horsepower limiter you will see on the log. You will be able to check the timing, boost, iat's and tps percentage.

Kevin M.

Guys can you help me understand something here, I just don't understand why you would want to modify a engine that is damn near its full potential from the factory. If 469 hp isn't enough why buy the car?
I would guess your spending $5-10K to increase power for a few extra HP, not to mention all the time wasted and potential to have MBZ void your warranty on the engine. Don't take this the wrong way but what is the ultimate goal with this car? Street racer?

Ted Baldwin

.............it is just one of those things you will not understand unless you are part of it. Modifying a car and getting it faster is much more satisfying than buying a car that is as fast as your modified car. I don't gamble. Have never understood the allure, but an entire US city was built arround the concept of gambling. Las Vegas today is the fastest growing city in the US.....and they don't miss me.

Ted

Mad TKD

thanks for clearing that up grumpy. Grumpy, then what would you say is the power increase per 1 PSI of boost? 10-12rwhp?

Kevin M.

Hi Ted, I somewhat understand the modifying part, every car I have owned I've modfied the appearance, which some say would be a waste a money, but it's for personal taste and appearance. I am all for making a car go faster as i'm constantly trying to figure out how to make my race car go faster. But a V8 supercharged MBZ that puts out 469 HP? I think that is pretty close to being maxed out on HP, and in realitly even if you do get 15-30 more HP, you really can't feel that, it comes down to the driver and how he can launch the car if your going for 1/4 mile runs. I think these tuners mislead some people on what there mods can do, its unfortunate because it seems to take away from the enjoyment of the car since it spends a lot of time in the shop.
Sorry for hijacking this thread, I'll shut up now

Grumpy666

There is no set answer for this question - it depends on many variables, such as engine size, flow capability, boost level, A/F ratio, etc. For a stock E55, you'll probably get about 15-20 HP per pound of boost. For a stock E55 w/headers, you might get 20-25 HP per pound of boost, since more flow is required to generate that pound of boost. More flow equals more HP. BUT, more boost does not necessarily mean more HP. For example, if there's a serious restriction in the exhaust somewhere that won't allow more flow, then raising the boost won't generate more HP. In fact, there might be a loss of HP, since a higher boost level will heat the intake charge more than the lower boost level. Raising boost w/o increasing IC capability will result in diminishing returns, and will eventually cause a loss of power. Also, if you raise boost, which results in increased flow, but don't adjust the A/F ratio for that increased flow, you will not make as much HP as you could.

Grumpy666

In reality, these cars are putting out closer to 500 HP, and you're underestimating the power-increase potential of the mods. Just the basic pulley, headers, and proper ECU tune can result in about a 60-75 HP increase - and you will feel that. With a little practice and some aid from ESP, a 1/4-mile time improvement of 0.5 seconds and a trap speed increase of 5 mph are not unusual. Those numbers are significant. All this and daily driveability doesn't diminish. Warranty, on the other hand . . .

hydeaway

i would put a temporary boost guage - it could be the SC belt being lose at WOT. With that much power it could be sliping.

Ted Baldwin

.....I don't thik you hijacked the thread at all. Your concerns are quite valid given that the thread starter is not able to get the HP increases he desires with his mods. I definitely agree wth you that tuners are exergerating their promises and this does lead some of the dissatisfaction. However you can get significant increase in power that you can feel, not just 20-30HP. My G55 K4 dynoed at 389HP stock and after the mods, it dynoed at 491HP at the whee. This is a increase in wheel HP of 102 or an increase of 140HP to the crank. This takes the HP from 469 to 654 and torque went from 420 to over 700. You should see the 4wheel drive spin all 4 tires at take off. So it is not just an excercise in futility.

Ted