Need Advice on Adding More Power to HPS SC
01-27-2007, 10:43 PM
#1176
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'09 911 C4S
I'm not against your venture. I'm just suggesting you to be more cautious since you've really made a fool of yourself on the forum with this thread. Numerous people have tried to talk some sense into you but you never listened.
I would suggest doing at least a poll on the forums if not thoroughly studying the market first before jumping to conclusion. Wishful thinking can mean a lot of wasted investment down the road. A lot of the buyers of pre-owned Benzes are still older folks that might not want to take the risk of s/cing their car or they might simply not need the extra horsepower. To be honest with you, it's your investment and I have nothing to do with it so I really don't care how much you can potentially lose in this venture, let alone being against it.
I would suggest doing at least a poll on the forums if not thoroughly studying the market first before jumping to conclusion. Wishful thinking can mean a lot of wasted investment down the road. A lot of the buyers of pre-owned Benzes are still older folks that might not want to take the risk of s/cing their car or they might simply not need the extra horsepower. To be honest with you, it's your investment and I have nothing to do with it so I really don't care how much you can potentially lose in this venture, let alone being against it.
01-28-2007, 09:10 AM
#1177
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They did the best they could with what they got. In the end, the design is just not efficient. The owner of the performance shop in Hermosa Beach pointed out some serious design flaws. 
1) Sharp, Jagged edge design of Outlet Plenum traps air in the corners.
2) Not enough space inside the Outlet Plenum to circulate air with intercooler core taking up half of the space.
3) Too much turbulence and back pressure inside.
4) Polished surface retains heat.
5) Not enough surface area to dissipate heat.
6) Inlet Plenum design causes air to clash against each other from opposite sides at the T intersection. Needs a SL55 Splitter design to channel incoming air into SC.
7) Air must make a sharp 180 degree turn inside the Outlet Plenum to reach the Intake ports.
8) Outlet runners are TOO SMALL and SQUARE in shape.
So bottom line is I'm done with this kit. Jessie did his best but was only able to squeeze out 438rwtq but the rwhp was just shy of 400. He did not want to risk blowing my engine so he did not advance the timing too much.
Looks like I'm going to see if my brothers and brother-in-law are willing to invest in starting a company to build one from scratch using the Eaton TVS blower. I've learned from the flaws of this kit to know what NOT to do. If a kit can be offered that is reliable and makes Kleemann type power for under $5000 would there be a market for it? Of course we would recruit the very best designers and tuners in the industry if there was enough capital poured into this venture. The kit components can be fabricated in China. Quality can be tightly controlled. The Design and tuning would be done here. Remember we are talking about the used MB market here. All the Non-SCd C, CLK, SLK and pre-2003 55's around the world will be the potential market.
1) Sharp, Jagged edge design of Outlet Plenum traps air in the corners.
2) Not enough space inside the Outlet Plenum to circulate air with intercooler core taking up half of the space.
3) Too much turbulence and back pressure inside.
4) Polished surface retains heat.
5) Not enough surface area to dissipate heat.
6) Inlet Plenum design causes air to clash against each other from opposite sides at the T intersection. Needs a SL55 Splitter design to channel incoming air into SC.
7) Air must make a sharp 180 degree turn inside the Outlet Plenum to reach the Intake ports.
8) Outlet runners are TOO SMALL and SQUARE in shape.
So bottom line is I'm done with this kit. Jessie did his best but was only able to squeeze out 438rwtq but the rwhp was just shy of 400. He did not want to risk blowing my engine so he did not advance the timing too much.
Looks like I'm going to see if my brothers and brother-in-law are willing to invest in starting a company to build one from scratch using the Eaton TVS blower. I've learned from the flaws of this kit to know what NOT to do. If a kit can be offered that is reliable and makes Kleemann type power for under $5000 would there be a market for it? Of course we would recruit the very best designers and tuners in the industry if there was enough capital poured into this venture. The kit components can be fabricated in China. Quality can be tightly controlled. The Design and tuning would be done here. Remember we are talking about the used MB market here. All the Non-SCd C, CLK, SLK and pre-2003 55's around the world will be the potential market.
01-28-2007, 09:44 AM
#1178
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'09 911 C4S
The design flaw is in the blower itself. The engine is not seeing the boosted air anyways. It wouldn't help even if you have a 100mm TB with a totally independent i/c
01-28-2007, 09:47 AM
#1179
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Looks like I'm going to see if my brothers and brother-in-law are willing to invest in starting a company to build one from scratch using the Eaton TVS blower. I've learned from the flaws of this kit to know what NOT to do. If a kit can be offered that is reliable and makes Kleemann type power for under $5000 would there be a market for it? Of course we would recruit the very best designers and tuners in the industry if there was enough capital poured into this venture. The kit components can be fabricated in China. Quality can be tightly controlled. The Design and tuning would be done here. Remember we are talking about the used MB market here. All the Non-SCd C, CLK, SLK and pre-2003 55's around the world will be the potential market.
Things aren't as simple as having an idea and 'raising capital' by getting money from your family.
If you want to throw away even MORE money on another failure, sure, I'll watch.
01-28-2007, 11:06 AM
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2006 Weistec 3.0L SC'd C55, 2006 MaxPsi PT6466 Turbo'd M3, 2019 Maserati GTS , 2020Alfa Quadrifoglio
You are nothing more than an insecure C32 owner who cannot bear to see C55's extend the power and speed advantage once it's been modded. Why should C32's be the only C class cars than can be modded with significant power for a reasonable price? You feel that Kleemanns and Renntech blown C55's are few (AMGdragon, BennyZ, Catapult, etc..) but the thought of a mass of C55's making at least 50-80rwhp more than your modded C32 frightens the living daylights out of you.
01-28-2007, 01:03 PM
#1181
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Cobra/E55
Why should I give them a ring?
First of all, my suggestion was directed towards the thread starter who needs help with tuning and asked specifically for that.
http://www.stealthauto.com/store/contact.aspx
http://www.powerchipgroup.com/news/s...cle.asp?aid=97
Looks like some real answers should start coming out......
Everyone knows Powerchip and Stealth Auto share an office aside from you. I have mentioned such numerous times, nothing is a secret.
Members arent smart and arent able to search google to find some quick answer too right
Most members on this board are VERY smart which is why they see my repeated posts about sharing an office with Powerchip.
First of all, my suggestion was directed towards the thread starter who needs help with tuning and asked specifically for that.
http://www.stealthauto.com/store/contact.aspx
http://www.powerchipgroup.com/news/s...cle.asp?aid=97
Looks like some real answers should start coming out......
Everyone knows Powerchip and Stealth Auto share an office aside from you. I have mentioned such numerous times, nothing is a secret.
Members arent smart and arent able to search google to find some quick answer too right
Most members on this board are VERY smart which is why they see my repeated posts about sharing an office with Powerchip.
Some members feel the need to hound companies and provide false information when they themselves have no first hand experience.
You my friend came into the Powerchip thread I created to simply bad-mouth them and try to make me/us look bad.
Again, thank you for the above mentioned links and at your attempted degradation but unfortunately such did not come to fruition.
Last edited by StealthAuto; 01-28-2007 at 01:09 PM.
01-28-2007, 01:53 PM
#1182
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They did the best they could with what they got. In the end, the design is just not efficient. The owner of the performance shop in Hermosa Beach pointed out some serious design flaws.
1) Sharp, Jagged edge design of Outlet Plenum traps air in the corners.
2) Not enough space inside the Outlet Plenum to circulate air with intercooler core taking up half of the space.
3) Too much turbulence and back pressure inside.
4) Polished surface retains heat.
5) Not enough surface area to dissipate heat.
6) Inlet Plenum design causes air to clash against each other from opposite sides at the T intersection. Needs a SL55 Splitter design to channel incoming air into SC.
7) Air must make a sharp 180 degree turn inside the Outlet Plenum to reach the Intake ports.
8) Outlet runners are TOO SMALL and SQUARE in shape.
So bottom line is I'm done with this kit. Jessie did his best but was only able to squeeze out 438rwtq but the rwhp was just shy of 400. He did not want to risk blowing my engine so he did not advance the timing too much.
Looks like I'm going to see if my brothers and brother-in-law are willing to invest in starting a company to build one from scratch using the Eaton TVS blower. I've learned from the flaws of this kit to know what NOT to do. If a kit can be offered that is reliable and makes Kleemann type power for under $5000 would there be a market for it? Of course we would recruit the very best designers and tuners in the industry if there was enough capital poured into this venture. The kit components can be fabricated in China. Quality can be tightly controlled. The Design and tuning would be done here. Remember we are talking about the used MB market here. All the Non-SCd C, CLK, SLK and pre-2003 55's around the world will be the potential market.
1) Sharp, Jagged edge design of Outlet Plenum traps air in the corners.
2) Not enough space inside the Outlet Plenum to circulate air with intercooler core taking up half of the space.
3) Too much turbulence and back pressure inside.
4) Polished surface retains heat.
5) Not enough surface area to dissipate heat.
6) Inlet Plenum design causes air to clash against each other from opposite sides at the T intersection. Needs a SL55 Splitter design to channel incoming air into SC.
7) Air must make a sharp 180 degree turn inside the Outlet Plenum to reach the Intake ports.
8) Outlet runners are TOO SMALL and SQUARE in shape.
So bottom line is I'm done with this kit. Jessie did his best but was only able to squeeze out 438rwtq but the rwhp was just shy of 400. He did not want to risk blowing my engine so he did not advance the timing too much.
Looks like I'm going to see if my brothers and brother-in-law are willing to invest in starting a company to build one from scratch using the Eaton TVS blower. I've learned from the flaws of this kit to know what NOT to do. If a kit can be offered that is reliable and makes Kleemann type power for under $5000 would there be a market for it? Of course we would recruit the very best designers and tuners in the industry if there was enough capital poured into this venture. The kit components can be fabricated in China. Quality can be tightly controlled. The Design and tuning would be done here. Remember we are talking about the used MB market here. All the Non-SCd C, CLK, SLK and pre-2003 55's around the world will be the potential market.
That last post where you claim to be bringing a blower to market for a MB made my almost spit my breakfast on my screen I was laughing so hard. Do you really think ANYONE would buy a car part from you? You have proven yourself to be a car destroyer not a tuner. I would really doubt anyone here would want a part you sold over something offered by renntech or kleemann - regardless of price!
You fall into the group of people that think they can become a car tuner over night with a few shinny parts and a showroom (aka HPS!). If you do come to market I predict that it wont sell and your venture capital will all dry up. Did you learn this monkey business at USC? I though that place was better than that.
Kev has a fantastic point about making parts for a out of production motor. I made this point to you a very long time ago but it has come up again and it is quite possibly the most important point yet.
All the other tuners got in on the tuning the M113 back when there was demand. People will not want to put blowers on used cars and most people buying a used car are doing so to save money. People trying to save money normallly do not want to go out and spend 10k on a blower and some other upgrades. RENNtech and Kleemann had a nice run with the M113 motor serioes and now its about done. They are not working on the new M272-M273 motor for that is where the proffit lies. Good luck.
Last edited by CynCarvin32; 01-28-2007 at 02:00 PM.
01-28-2007, 02:01 PM
#1183
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Immature answer as always. I respect other's opinions much more than yours and those statements don't even deserve an answer.
You are nothing more than an insecure C32 owner who cannot bear to see C55's extend the power and speed advantage once it's been modded. Why should C32's be the only C class cars than can be modded with significant power for a reasonable price? You feel that Kleemanns and Renntech blown C55's are few (AMGdragon, BennyZ, Catapult, etc..) but the thought of a mass of C55's making at least 50-80rwhp more than your modded C32 frightens the living daylights out of you.
You are nothing more than an insecure C32 owner who cannot bear to see C55's extend the power and speed advantage once it's been modded. Why should C32's be the only C class cars than can be modded with significant power for a reasonable price? You feel that Kleemanns and Renntech blown C55's are few (AMGdragon, BennyZ, Catapult, etc..) but the thought of a mass of C55's making at least 50-80rwhp more than your modded C32 frightens the living daylights out of you.
It sure looks like your project was to build a blown C55 comparable to Renntech and Kleeman for less money. In that sense, you failed. Failures happen to all of us. It took you way too long to accept that, but it looks like you finally did. Now you're talking about starting another project that already has failure written all over it. As much as I would love to just sit back and go 'glad that's not me,' I still want to slap ya and tell you to stop before you start.
Your attitude about the C32 vs C55 thing really speaks for itself.
01-28-2007, 05:13 PM
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2006 Weistec 3.0L SC'd C55, 2006 MaxPsi PT6466 Turbo'd M3, 2019 Maserati GTS , 2020Alfa Quadrifoglio
At this point, I am just going to use my car to build a prototype using the Eaton TVS 6th Generation blower. If it works then I will feel out the market reception of a under $5,000 MB SC kit within PROVEN POWER and RELIABILITY. We would also consider the new applications for the new 4-valve motor as well.
01-28-2007, 07:11 PM
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V12-Biturbo
3 of your posts ago you wrote this, now below you're back in the saddle again??
When are you going to quit again?
Status is quoting me a custom splitter and high-flow cats but I've already upgraded my cheap Teele pump with the Bosch pump. The heat exchanger is still stock HPS kit. I am going to swap out the Bosch pump for the Johnson Marine pump (6x the capacity) and install the new splitter but I doubt it will make much of a difference.
Last edited by Thericker; 01-28-2007 at 07:15 PM.
01-28-2007, 09:38 PM
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2006 Weistec 3.0L SC'd C55, 2006 MaxPsi PT6466 Turbo'd M3, 2019 Maserati GTS , 2020Alfa Quadrifoglio
No. My strategy is NOT to offer it for 10K but for the price of a C32 Stage 2. Why do plenty of C32 owners spend over $5K on pulley kits and software alone when a C55 owner can potentially get a Supercharger w/software for the same price? Outragious? Go Check SuperchargersOnline.com. Practically every Supercharger for all other makes sells at no more than $6-7K.
Last edited by AMGSC; 01-28-2007 at 09:46 PM.
01-28-2007, 09:49 PM
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2006 Weistec 3.0L SC'd C55, 2006 MaxPsi PT6466 Turbo'd M3, 2019 Maserati GTS , 2020Alfa Quadrifoglio
I was merely stating what the pre-requisites for a successful launch would be. That it had to be thorougly tested and proven before it goes to market.
01-29-2007, 12:35 AM
#1189
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Wrong, Amost ALL people put AFTERMARKET blowers on USED cars. I was one of the few exceptions who was willing to void a brand new warranty. People will not put blowers on NEW cars because they would buy it OEM with warranty if they had to means and the budget.
No. My strategy is NOT to offer it for 10K but for the price of a C32 Stage 2. Why do plenty of C32 owners spend over $5K on pulley kits and software alone when a C55 owner can potentially get a Supercharger w/software for the same price? Outragious? Go Check SuperchargersOnline.com. Practically every Supercharger for all other makes sells at no more than $6-7K.
No. My strategy is NOT to offer it for 10K but for the price of a C32 Stage 2. Why do plenty of C32 owners spend over $5K on pulley kits and software alone when a C55 owner can potentially get a Supercharger w/software for the same price? Outragious? Go Check SuperchargersOnline.com. Practically every Supercharger for all other makes sells at no more than $6-7K.
People who buy a used car buy it to save money and likely will not want to spend that much on your blower - even if it is ultra cheap. I think people here have seen enough go wrong that none would want your parts. HPS never was a profitable project and I doubt your plan will be profitable as well.
Your ability to design and trouble shoot issues has lead to your car being a horrible failure. You finally said that the blower is junk and now you are back to trying to make the new generation work.
Adam went into the car field with NO background in the car tuning business and look he is in court and losing money left and right. You have no background in this and for some reason you think you can come in like a master and bring the worlds best item to market. Sorry for being skeptical but I have doubts.
01-29-2007, 02:44 AM
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V12-Biturbo
I'm surprised no ones given props to Jessie from Speedinnovation, for actually tuning the hps II, and getting nearly 400rwhp & 438rwto as reported by Robert (AMGSC) Considering what hardware Jessie had to work with, I'd say it was a pretty incredible job! nice going man
Last edited by Thericker; 01-29-2007 at 02:56 AM.
01-29-2007, 01:47 PM
#1191
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Midnight Blue 2004.5 C230 Kompressor Sport Sedan. 2002 w210 E320, 2009 w211 E350 Sport
I'm surprised no ones given props to Jessie from Speedinnovation, for actually tuning the hps II, and getting nearly 400rwhp & 438rwto as reported by Robert (AMGSC) Considering what hardware Jessie had to work with, I'd say it was a pretty incredible job! nice going man
Got to give the props where it is due.
01-29-2007, 03:04 PM
#1192
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I'm surprised no ones given props to Jessie from Speedinnovation, for actually tuning the hps II, and getting nearly 400rwhp & 438rwto as reported by Robert (AMGSC) Considering what hardware Jessie had to work with, I'd say it was a pretty incredible job! nice going man
He said it was custom work but it was done in 30 minutes and then slapped on the dyno. That is not the way a custome map works. It is not a simple series of key strokes and there you have 100 rwhp.
So if his car is indeed making that power then leave it alone and be happy! Its doing what kleemann and RENNtech do. I still do not trust these figures however.
01-29-2007, 03:14 PM
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I have no issues with giving credit where credit is due. From the looks and sound of it he simply loaded in some OTHER tuners software and said oh look I wrote some special custome software for your car and now it actually moves.
He said it was custom work but it was done in 30 minutes and then slapped on the dyno. That is not the way a custome map works. It is not a simple series of key strokes and there you have 100 rwhp.
So if his car is indeed making that power then leave it alone and be happy! Its doing what kleemann and RENNtech do. I still do not trust these figures however.
He said it was custom work but it was done in 30 minutes and then slapped on the dyno. That is not the way a custome map works. It is not a simple series of key strokes and there you have 100 rwhp.
So if his car is indeed making that power then leave it alone and be happy! Its doing what kleemann and RENNtech do. I still do not trust these figures however.
The torque is impressive based on what he told me but he said the power just flattened out before reaching 6000rpm. I guess these roots blower have very poor top end compared to twin-screws and centrifugals.
I cleaned out my K&N's yesterday and it was filthy. I also noticed that the plastic air ducts was not properly aligned (did not snap in place) so about half of the openings was blocked by my grill. I hope that's not what was causing me to run rich.
Last edited by AMGSC; 01-29-2007 at 03:19 PM.
01-29-2007, 03:30 PM
#1194
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I have no issues with giving credit where credit is due. From the looks and sound of it he simply loaded in some OTHER tuners software and said oh look I wrote some special custome software for your car and now it actually moves.
He said it was custom work but it was done in 30 minutes and then slapped on the dyno. That is not the way a custome map works. It is not a simple series of key strokes and there you have 100 rwhp.
So if his car is indeed making that power then leave it alone and be happy! Its doing what kleemann and RENNtech do. I still do not trust these figures however.
He said it was custom work but it was done in 30 minutes and then slapped on the dyno. That is not the way a custome map works. It is not a simple series of key strokes and there you have 100 rwhp.
So if his car is indeed making that power then leave it alone and be happy! Its doing what kleemann and RENNtech do. I still do not trust these figures however.
I don't have access to the tools needed to reprogram the factory ECU, otherwise I'd probably give it a shot on my c32.
01-29-2007, 04:13 PM
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Silver 2002 C32, Silver 2006 CLK 350
Man you watch too much fast and the furious, let me just give you an advice you bought a Mercedes Benz not a Honda. Most of the people here are about 22 to 40 years old. So you have about 10% of the people that buy Mercedes Benz that would do some mods. Most would only do cosmetic (rims, Light, Ect.) I would say 5% of that would be interested on getting More HP. so why would you dump all that money for a car that only 5% will be modded by people here? Not every owner here tracks his car maybe 2%. That’s no enough to get investors to back you up. No idiot member here would have his or her $50000 car be an genie pig for your experiment. And what would you do if you blow up someone motor? Are you and your investors gonna be liable? from all the People that should know this it should be you. HPS Screwed You! I know It sucks to be the victim but you just have to suck it up and be happy with what you have.
01-29-2007, 04:30 PM
#1196
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Man you watch too much fast and the furious, let me just give you an advice you bought a Mercedes Benz not a Honda. Most of the people here are about 22 to 40 years old. So you have about 10% of the people that buy Mercedes Benz that would do some mods. Most would only do cosmetic (rims, Light, Ect.) I would say 5% of that would be interested on getting More HP. so why would you dump all that money for a car that only 5% will be modded by people here? Not every owner here tracks his car maybe 2%. That’s no enough to get investors to back you up. No idiot member here would have his or her $50000 car be an genie pig for your experiment. And what would you do if you blow up someone motor? Are you and your investors gonna be liable? from all the People that should know this it should be you. HPS Screwed You! I know It sucks to be the victim but you just have to suck it up and be happy with what you have.
01-29-2007, 04:56 PM
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ones too fast according to CHP!
Easy guys - there is a point when trying to be helpful crosses the line to insulting and we are just about at that point!
Lets all play nice!
Lets all play nice!
01-29-2007, 05:15 PM
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Silver 2002 C32, Silver 2006 CLK 350
sorry didnt want to insult him, the market on moddingMercedes benz are slim. we have such strick Smog Laws and speed limit that its not worth modding your car anymore
01-29-2007, 05:29 PM
#1200
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