Fifth Ring

No doubt, tuners will make a 335 equal to and better than the current M3. But I would not put my money down on anything but Dinan or another tuner that's willing to preserve or match the BMW warranty. A lot of what you pay for a new car is the value of the warranty; and who wants to pay $15,000 for a new engine or transmission?

Kev04C320

As far as I know, Dinan is also working on a chip right now and is scheduled for release just before Christmas

Improviz

I don't belive that pointing out two irrefutable facts, namely that point out that semi-race tires were used on the CSL, and that (obviously) this would greatly decrease its lap times, illustrates a bias towards anything. Do you?

Kev04C320

That's called objective, isn't it?

The statement is supposed to be interpreted literally. So chill. I'm not M&M or Gustav trying to pick a fight here.

Improviz

To you and me, yes....to skratch, no.

You threw me with the rolf's at the end, which I thought was sarcasm. Ah, the trials and tribulations of inference....

transferred

Improviz- I am also not Gustav or M&M. I am also under no illusions that 55s and 32s have the beating of M3s in a straightline. They are very nice, classy cars. However, you must remember that whatever you say about them, the CSL tires are bone stock. Of curse, they are designed for the track, but I appreciate that in this day and age a maker has the ***** to release something like that. The CSL is proof that it doesn't take 700bhp to lap the 'Ring quickly, conversely the Elise is proof that it does take some amount of power. 360bhp is about right on that track, it's so old and bumpy.

Improviz

I'm certainly not disputing that they're OEM, but was merely taking issue with skratch's spin, which would seem to be that these tires had a negligible effect upon the CSL's fast lap. Obviously, they have a dramatic effect.

This is not meant to take anything away from the CSL, a truly remarkable car, but merely to point out that had it been shod w/Conti's or other standard-M3-OEM tires, it certainly would have turned a notably slower lap, albeit still a damned impressive one.

Yeah, they don't call it ""he Green Hell" for nothing! BMW's M cars are certainly very well-tuned for track applications, no disputing that either.

Trust me, I'm no BMW hater; in fact, quite the contrary; I'm quite interested in, and will be taking a serious look at purchasing, the upcoming M3, now that they've finally stuck a V8 in there!! (Waiting for collective gasp....)

transferred

What you say regarding the CSL is all correct. And yes, from the limited knowledge I do have of you, that is amazing you are considering a new M3. If you can live with the styling, i'm positive it'll be one hell of a car and you won't regret your purchase.

Funnilt enough I was thinking of jumping marques. I went to Keyes Audi in Van Nuys yesterday on the off chance they had an RS4 in. They didn't all three were sold. Probably lucky because had I driven that beast it could of been a very expensive Saturday morning for me and bye-bye to the iS. I couldn't do that to the loyal sevant though!

Take it easy

skratch77

wow I didnt think that would cause all this drama lol...OK there race tires happy

hey impro what do you think helped more.The street legal tires or the 300 lb weight savings,3x better brakes,completely tuned suspention,race setting SMG speed shifts,better track gearing for each shift and a highly tuned s54 engine with an alpha n ECU running no hfm and doing all the calculations on the fly to squeeze out 113 hp/l

your trying to bring down the CSL using the tires exactly the oposite from what I was doing wich was really to correct the track time that was said above.

the tires helped but not as much as you think.

heres a little video of a 18 year old M3 chasing a Porche gt around the ring

this is a regular kid weraing a basball cap chasing a super car

Ill take a guess and say that the next CSL will do 7.45 around the ring giver or take and 7.40 with real race tires NOT STREET LEGAL

Kev04C320

Calm down, cow boy. No one's beating down your beloved CSL.

I think impro is just saying that comparing car running on PS2 and PS Cup is simply not fair, so the time of 7:50 is not a good comparison for other cars unless they're running on the same tires.

Improviz

I'm sure you had to take a moment to wipe the slooge off of your screen after writing this, but in addition, you're erecting a strawman here. I pointed out, accurately, that the tires contributed in no minor way to that car's lap times. I did NOT argue that the other mods to the car had no effect, ONLY that the tires made it faster, which you were trying to spin.

Prove it. Your little video of two different drivers proves nothing, except that some drivers are better than others. Sabine Schmidt lapped the 'ring in a Ford Transit van as fast as Jeremy Clark could in a Jaguar, which hardly proves that the Ford delivery truck is a better track car.

Here are a few links you might want to read:
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/ro..._acceleration/
Those tires? Toyo Proxes RA1, which are also street legal. Yet on a short course like the Streets of Willow, they picked the car up 2-3 seconds per lap...and the Streets is 1.5 miles; Nurbergring is 13 miles!!!

So please: do some homework and take off the BMW goggles for once. Tires make an ENORMOUS difference in a car's laptimes, and to argue otherwise is showing your ignorance. Nobody was arguing that tires were the ONLY factor, but they certainly are a BIG factor.

Have a look at the Subaru Sti Spec-C's lap time of 7'58"...No engine mods compared to the normal STi, otherwise it's the same type of deal as the CSL: a bunch of weight savings (120Kg), some suspension tuning, etc....and lo and behold, stickier tires. All of which netted it a savings of about 26" per lap compared to the normal STi.

Which shows that stickier tires, weight savings, drivetrain mods, and suspension mods make a car faster around a race track. What could it have done with more power, like the CSL's got??

Wow, thank you for that. Learn something new every day!

vraa

!!!
Pilot Sport Cups are tires from GOD himself.
There's a reason why in a certain Evo Tuner blowout test a few months ago no one was allowed to use those tires.
Sure they might be OEM, but to discredit the tires is wrong. Yes the CSL is a beast of a car (360hp, and an exhaust tone that sounds like a VTEC with it's ***** dropped), we're not saying it's not, but you must acknowledge the tires played a big role in getting many seconds shaved off.

Carl Lassiter

Good description!

I consider the E46 engine in its CSL variant as one of the greatest ever made.

Wish they'd offerred a stick shift as well though.

dorikin_86

While they're quite a bit better than street tires...these things aren't sticky compared to Toyo RA1's and nowhere near Kumho V710 or Hoosier A6/R6 so I wouldn't say they're tires from 'god' himself.

I've seen them last 15k miles on the street and that's why they use these at the 25hour of thunderhill to save tire changing time.

btw...plz don't diss vtecs. Nobody else pushing 120hp/liter out there rite?

transferred

I'm assuming you only mean NA engines?

Still wrong though. Mazdas 1.3 rotary develops 228hp. Like a VTEC it also makes no torque.

vraa

God adapts, you can use Cups on the street (although I would question your sanity)

BTW: What other tires would you put in the category of Competition tires?

I didn't diss vtecs btw.

PC Valkyrie

Well, to bring this thread back on topic, here are some more detailed numbers from the Sport Auto test of the 335i. In their article, they listed the numbers from the E46 M3, W203 C55, and B6 S4 Avant which were tested previously. Here are the major categories of their test.

Nuburgring laptime:
1) M3: 8.22minutes
2) C55: 8:22 minutes
3) 335i: 8:26 minutes
4) S4 Avant: 8:29 minutes

Hockenheim laptime:
1) M3: 1.17,6 minutes
2) 335i: 1.17.8 minutes
3) C55: 1.18,6 minutes
4) S4 Avant: 1.19,1 minutes

0-200-0 km/h
1) M3: 23.2 seconds
2) C55: 23.7 seconds
3) 335i: 26.3 seconds
4) S4 Avant: 26.4 seconds

Transverse acceleration:
1) 335i: 1.15 g
2) M3: 1.10 g
3) C55: 1.10 g
4) S4 Avant: 1.05 g

Slalom course (36m)
1) 335i: 136 km/h
2) M3: 123 km/h
3) C55: 122 km/h
4) S4 Avant: 121 km/h

Evasive course (110m)
1) 335i: 136 km/h
2) M3: 136 km/h
3) C55: 134 km/h
4) S4 Avant: 130 km/h

Total points indicative of the "overall assessment"
1) 335i: 45
2) M3: 44
3) C55: 42
4) S4 Avant: 37

In other words, Sport Auto, which places an emphasis on handling rather than straight line speed, ranks the new 335i above the E46 M3. Quite an achievement for a non-M car with stock 17" rims.

Improviz

...the turbo loses wind a bit up high compared w/the big V8, but it's still respectably quick, and has very impressive handling toboot. Helluva car, that's for sure. And given that I doubt they'd allow their second-stringer to outhandle their flagship, it bodes very well for the next-gen M3.

Kev04C320

Can't wait to see test data for the new M3.

dorikin_86

Competition tires on the US market:

Nitto NT01
Michelin pilot sport cup
Kumho V700, V710, Victoracer
Toyo RA1
Hoosier A6/R6
Hankook has 3 but forgot the name
Yokohama A048/A032R
Pirelli P Zero Corsa

VTECS have no torque for sure but they are really a blast to thrash on the race track =)