PC Valkyrie

I decided to start a new thread about this because the 335i vs C55 thread has become an eyesore.

Just this month, the 335i coupe was tested by Sport Auto magazine. This is a German mag that uses the same driver to test cars on tracks like the Nuburgring and Hockenheim. As many of you know, more and more manufacturers are using the lap time around Nurburgring as a measure of the overall performance of a car. The Nurburgring track is a long a demanding one, where straight line speed and handling prowess are required to get the best performance.

8:26 minutes.....that's the time Sport Auto got for the new BMW 335i coupe.

Here are some other lap times from Sport Auto to give you perspective.

B7 RS4: 8:09 minutes (done on cup tyres)
E60 M5: 8:13 minutes
E46 M3: 8:22 minutes
W203 C55 AMG: 8:22 minutes
B5 RS4: 8:25 minutes
E39 M5: 8:28 minutes
B6 S4 Avant: 8:29 minutes
W203 C32 AMG: 8:37 minutes


I think the 335i time is quite impressive for a non-M car. It is faster than the C32, the B6 S4 Avant, and E39 M5.

1V8C55

Those are indeed very impressive numbers. I'm looking forward to seeing what the next generation M3 can do on the Nurburgring track.

knepster

Also, the C55 referenced above had the Nuburgring suspension on the car, unlike the stock.

Carl Lassiter

That's not a bad time at all from the 335i.

I'm surprised the B6 Avant was only one second behind the E39 M5 due to BMW's handling prowess while the 15 second gap between the E39 and E60 really shows improvement.

Great time from the C55 and RS4.

I'm guessing the C32 was so slow mainly because of the transmission and a little due to the suspension? On the road the C32 is a very fast car and one of the ultimate sleepers.

Does anyone know times for the M3 CSL?

PC Valkyrie

Where did you get that information? To my knowledge, the C55 that was tested in July 2004 by Sport Auto was bone stock from the factory. The "performance package" which contained the Germany only Nuburgring suspension came out afterwards.

the101dragons

What's the difference in suspensions of the Stock C55 and the Nurburing one?

Man what happened to the C32, it must be the mushy suspension I'm guessing because the speed has to be there.

PC Valkyrie

If you take a ride in a C32 and C55, you'll immediately notice that the ride in the C55 is much harsher because of stiffer suspension tuning. Also the C55 has a more direct steering ratio. The ESP was revised as well for more "spirited" driving and it has that pseudo system mimicking a LSD. The 5 speed automatic had a new "manual" mode which allowed the drivers have complete control without unwanted automatic shifts at redline.

The M3 CSL tested by Sport Auto was VERY fast. It did Nurburgring in 7:50 minutes.

Carl Lassiter

7.50- that's astonishing.

A family member has a C32 but I've got rather limited knowledge of the C55 having never driven one so thanks for outlining the changes they made.

I thought, but I could well be wrong, that the Nurburgring suspension was also available in England?

PC Valkyrie

The "Performance Package" that is available for the C55 can be found in the AMG Performance Studio brochure (which can be downloaded from the international AMG website).

This package includes the following: 19" rims with wider tires, improved brakes (6 piston front, 4 piston rear), "Nurburgring" suspension (which is used in the C55 AMG racing taxi and in the F1 Medical car (C55 Estate)). The package also includes a mechanical LSD, and improved weight distribution by moving the battery into the trunk. Cosmetically, this package includes that wonderful front bumper which looks like the SL65.

I'm certain that the C55 that Sport Auto tested did NOT have this "Performance Package".

PC Valkyrie

Yes, it will be very interesting to see what type of laptimes the next V8 M3 will post. When the E46 M3 came out, it outperformed its big brother E39 M5. If history repeats it self, the next M3 may beat the E60 M5, which lapped Nurburgring in 8:13 minutes.

Carl Lassiter

BMW, and their Motorsport arm in particular, have a knack of sending out cars that lap tracks quickly.

However, my personal guess is that while the E90 M3 will be quicker than its predecessor, it will not be able to match the M5 which will kost likely have a 100bhp advantage.

Knowing how quick and tuneable the 335i is though, they may decide to take a semi-CSL philosophy and then who knows how quick the M3 will go...

Oc230K

Laptime Nordschleife 8.26 min (4 seconds slower than M3)
Laptime Hockenheim 1.17,8 min (0,8 seconds faster than C55 and 1.5 seconds slower than M3)


I Have the 335i beating the C55

C32underground

I already read all post on both car and for me, I dont think that you guys dont have to compare a AMG car like a C55, with a BMW no M car, it is truth that makes good times, but why not wait to come the C63, and we can even have good comparisons with the M3, The C55 doesnt come any more, I bought mine 2 weeks ago and is a very good car.

dorikin_86

The M3 CSL uses Michelin Pilot sport Cups and did not do a 7.50 flat. It's more closer to 7.56 no?

The sport cup tires aren't exactly the stickiest race tire but it is still a race tire. On a track that long, the csl would have a very hard time to break 8 mins with the stock michelin pilot sports.

skratch77

7.50 is its time.There tires are far from race tires and are legal for road use

Oc230K

Sorry guys but if i owned a c55 i dont care about the c63 coming coming out and being a better comparison to the 335i. Im going to pay $$ for a AMG and then a 42k Bmw (non M) is going to put up numbers like this against my car i'd be pissed.. Audi RS4 is kicking *** and about the same price as a C55 but that car kicks ***.

MB has to make Manual Tran. Cars And more of them should be Kompresser or Turbo.. They need to get with it.

PC Valkyrie

Let's not turn this thread into car A vs. car B. The point of this thread is to illustrate progress. This new 335i is quite a car with quite a bit of performance for the buck.

What's interesting to me is how will Audi/MB respond? Remember, this is not a M car. It's just a top of the line standard 3 series.

From MB, I'm sure we won't see any significant new engines in the C-class until the W204 makes its debut.

sdsilverm3

As always thanks for the unbiased info.

skratch77

this was taken from another board.

Hi guys,

It's been 5 days since we got our car. Fortunately, most of us here are a bit obsessive when it comes to digging into perfectly fine, brand new cars and seeing if we can come up with any newfound power. We're nowhere close to being done. I still want to get control of the closed loop fuel targets, directly control the boost contol solenoids as well as interface with the vanos system. That's at least a few weeks out. So far, all we did was minor ignition timing, fuel and boost pattern tweaks. Even on our 91oct, I suspect there is still a good deal more power that can be safely extracted once we have finished this project. Once again, these results are just our first attempt at tuning this car. It does not represent a complete tune. It's just one step at a time.

Results:

The gains were greatest at higher engine speeds. At 7000rpm, it picked up nearly 70whp with richer-than-stock A/F ratio. Peak WHP increased from 278 to 310whp at 6000rpm. Torque from 288lb-ft to 311lb-ft. I stayed nice and conservative at low to mid engine speeds (where, quite frankly, we should see the biggest gains when all is said and done). This was because I don't yet have control of the AFR targets in this region. The stock fuel mapping is too lean to run either the extra boost the turbos most certainly are capable of supporting, or optimal spark advance. Once we get control of the fuel in this region, we can start to turn up the wick and really get the sick midrange torque than the hardware is capable of supporting. For now, all we really wanted to do is make the car charge to redline instead of fall flat above 6000rpm. We did a little more than that but that was just an unexpected bonus. More to come in the next few weeks. Until then, it's back to testing.

Kev04C320

I saw that post on E90Post as well.

With coilovers, full headers and exahust, and RAM Air CAI, the 335i would be an awesome daily driver. Right now,I'm waiting for the first half model year to be over with before I order mine though. It would be an Alpine White on Coral Red combo, quite a change from my designo Mocha Black E55.

Improviz

Do you ever do anything over than spin, spin spin the crap out of the facts in favor of BMW? These tires are a helluva lot closer to race tires than to street. Here's what Car & Driver had to say about them:

So spin all you like, but these *certainly* played a huge factor in that CSL's laptime.

vraa

Pilot Cup Sports may be legal for road use, but you'd have to be
a) an idiot (unless it never rains where you live)
and/or
b) a lot of money to spend because they last so little time

I've got a lot of respect for the CSL because it's not saturated like the regular M3, but to try to downplay the fact that it was on Pilot Cup Sports is silly.

transferred

I had a CSL when living in England. It's correct to say the tires are biased towards track use but can be driven on the road for sure if you just remember what's connecting you to the pavement.

I actually took it to the Nurburgring with a friend, and there was some bad weather on the way but dry at the track. We survived and when we got there very few things could keep up. There was a Modena I remember that was taking a severe beating. Guy could drive but those 360 brakes just give up. A white/red 996 GT3RS was there, I couldn't lose him from my mirror and an NSX was another contender, but a little slower. The tracks too full of bad cars and even worse drivers though, so it's hard to do a timed lap.

But you are quite correct Ricky, when it rains it is better to choose another vehicle if you plan on getting somewhere fast.

Kev04C320

Oh, the always objective Improviz is here to save the day again

All jokes aside, those nerds from Vishnu are really good at tuning Evo. Now we know that the turbos that are used in the 335i are in fact made by Mitsubishi, which is a good sign that Vishnu really knows what they're doing.

Fifth Ring

No doubt, tuners will make a 335 equal to and better than the current M3. But I would not put my money down on anything but Dinan or another tuner that's willing to preserve or match the BMW warranty. A lot of what you pay for a new car is the value of the warranty; and who wants to pay $15,000 for a new engine or transmission?