HiFlow IC Pump Kit for C32
07-29-2007, 12:31 PM
#26
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2003 C32 AMG & 2009 CTS-V
The huge reduction you mention is clearly not going to result from a simple pump swap.
In any closed loop fluid heat exchange circuit, such as our intercoolers, the frequency at which the cooling medium passes through the heat exchanger, to a significant extent, determines its dissipation characteristics. As is always the case, the least effective piece in any link dictates its overall effectiveness.
One need only read the pertinent articles published over the years, be they from the SAE, David Vizard, Jeff Smith, Carroll Smith, Smokey Yunick or others with a hands-on (yet engineering based) background to realize that fluid flow often has a significant effect on the temperature at which a input dynamic heat exchange circuit establishes its ultimate fluid temperature.
Witness the E55 enthusiasts who have used a Johnson pump (not that kind!) to increase flow in their intercooler circuit with documented and favorable results. Perhaps another example might be those often heat-challenged operators (tow rig, high-output racers, etc.) that install a higher-flowing coolant pump on their engines with measurable improvement, without any other changes having been made.
It is well documented that a ten degree reduction in IAT results in ~1% increase in output, either from the increase in air density, or the reduction in the motor’s propensity toward spark knock. My datalogging software shows an inverse relationship between IATs, ignition timing retard, and RWHP as documented at the local dragstrip. I welcome advice and insight from those with differing results.
If the intercooler pump upgrade shows little or no improvement, then I’ll install a more efficient heat exchanger and document its effects, if any. Either way, the results will be posted.
*edit*
The E55 and its variants utilize virtually the same heat exchanger as our lowly C32s.
In any closed loop fluid heat exchange circuit, such as our intercoolers, the frequency at which the cooling medium passes through the heat exchanger, to a significant extent, determines its dissipation characteristics. As is always the case, the least effective piece in any link dictates its overall effectiveness.
One need only read the pertinent articles published over the years, be they from the SAE, David Vizard, Jeff Smith, Carroll Smith, Smokey Yunick or others with a hands-on (yet engineering based) background to realize that fluid flow often has a significant effect on the temperature at which a input dynamic heat exchange circuit establishes its ultimate fluid temperature.
Witness the E55 enthusiasts who have used a Johnson pump (not that kind!) to increase flow in their intercooler circuit with documented and favorable results. Perhaps another example might be those often heat-challenged operators (tow rig, high-output racers, etc.) that install a higher-flowing coolant pump on their engines with measurable improvement, without any other changes having been made.
It is well documented that a ten degree reduction in IAT results in ~1% increase in output, either from the increase in air density, or the reduction in the motor’s propensity toward spark knock. My datalogging software shows an inverse relationship between IATs, ignition timing retard, and RWHP as documented at the local dragstrip. I welcome advice and insight from those with differing results.
If the intercooler pump upgrade shows little or no improvement, then I’ll install a more efficient heat exchanger and document its effects, if any. Either way, the results will be posted.
*edit*
The E55 and its variants utilize virtually the same heat exchanger as our lowly C32s.
Man you guys are good! It never surprises me as what's to be learned in these threads.
Last edited by ericpd; 07-30-2007 at 02:46 AM.
07-29-2007, 01:30 PM
#27
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Hey guys, I trust it’s all good. No disrespect intended toward any members of our forum, particularly code3smith. He has started and contributed to many helpful threads. We are all just trying to find some more horsepower from our already capable machines.
Just got back from my morning ride, only to see those pictures of that cool heat exchanger…and I mean that figuratively and literally. That piece is a ringer in a thread about pumps!
Any members who haven’t already done so, please consider joining us for the September 8th track day at Willow Springs with the AMG drivers club.
http://www.amgdriversclub.com
Just got back from my morning ride, only to see those pictures of that cool heat exchanger…and I mean that figuratively and literally. That piece is a ringer in a thread about pumps!
Any members who haven’t already done so, please consider joining us for the September 8th track day at Willow Springs with the AMG drivers club.
http://www.amgdriversclub.com
07-30-2007, 12:46 PM
#28
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S600TT, R350
The main reason I am doing a HiFlow Pump kit is high failure rate of Bosch pumps. At this time it is almost a given that IC pump will fail on every C32. The replacement pump is still Bosch - either from MB or Ford, it is still the same pump.
As far as replacing factory heat exchanger, my question is why?
Why not add another heat exchanger, like I did with evosport's kompressor cooling upgrade kit (KCUP).
If one replaces stock with an upgraded unit, at most one has about 10% more room to install a bigger unit. By adding a secondary unit that is 60-70% the size of primary unit, the increase in cooling capacity is close to 50% (there is some loss due to secondary unit blocking primary).
In addition, installation is a lot easier, and in case of any kind of warranty work, the car can be returned to stock a lot quicker.
As far as replacing factory heat exchanger, my question is why?
Why not add another heat exchanger, like I did with evosport's kompressor cooling upgrade kit (KCUP).
If one replaces stock with an upgraded unit, at most one has about 10% more room to install a bigger unit. By adding a secondary unit that is 60-70% the size of primary unit, the increase in cooling capacity is close to 50% (there is some loss due to secondary unit blocking primary).
In addition, installation is a lot easier, and in case of any kind of warranty work, the car can be returned to stock a lot quicker.
07-30-2007, 01:29 PM
#29
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The main reason I am doing a HiFlow Pump kit is high failure rate of Bosch pumps. At this time it is almost a given that IC pump will fail on every C32. The replacement pump is still Bosch - either from MB or Ford, it is still the same pump.
As far as replacing factory heat exchanger, my question is why?
Why not add another heat exchanger, like I did with evosport's kompressor cooling upgrade kit (KCUP).
If one replaces stock with an upgraded unit, at most one has about 10% more room to install a bigger unit. By adding a secondary unit that is 60-70% the size of primary unit, the increase in cooling capacity is close to 50% (there is some loss due to secondary unit blocking primary).
In addition, installation is a lot easier, and in case of any kind of warranty work, the car can be returned to stock a lot quicker.
As far as replacing factory heat exchanger, my question is why?
Why not add another heat exchanger, like I did with evosport's kompressor cooling upgrade kit (KCUP).
If one replaces stock with an upgraded unit, at most one has about 10% more room to install a bigger unit. By adding a secondary unit that is 60-70% the size of primary unit, the increase in cooling capacity is close to 50% (there is some loss due to secondary unit blocking primary).
In addition, installation is a lot easier, and in case of any kind of warranty work, the car can be returned to stock a lot quicker.
07-30-2007, 01:32 PM
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Has anyone considered this pump ($250)
It's not cheap, but it does seem up to the job. It looks like a stubby version of the Bosch pump. No GPH rating, so who knows if it flows better.
http://www.cdoc.com/detail.asp?id=1303&name=#
http://www.cdoc.com/detail.asp?id=1303&name=#
Last edited by Fifth Ring; 07-30-2007 at 01:34 PM.
07-30-2007, 01:32 PM
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The main reason I am doing a HiFlow Pump kit is high failure rate of Bosch pumps. At this time it is almost a given that IC pump will fail on every C32. The replacement pump is still Bosch - either from MB or Ford, it is still the same pump.
As far as replacing factory heat exchanger, my question is why?
Why not add another heat exchanger, like I did with evosport's kompressor cooling upgrade kit (KCUP).
If one replaces stock with an upgraded unit, at most one has about 10% more room to install a bigger unit. By adding a secondary unit that is 60-70% the size of primary unit, the increase in cooling capacity is close to 50% (there is some loss due to secondary unit blocking primary).
In addition, installation is a lot easier, and in case of any kind of warranty work, the car can be returned to stock a lot quicker.
As far as replacing factory heat exchanger, my question is why?
Why not add another heat exchanger, like I did with evosport's kompressor cooling upgrade kit (KCUP).
If one replaces stock with an upgraded unit, at most one has about 10% more room to install a bigger unit. By adding a secondary unit that is 60-70% the size of primary unit, the increase in cooling capacity is close to 50% (there is some loss due to secondary unit blocking primary).
In addition, installation is a lot easier, and in case of any kind of warranty work, the car can be returned to stock a lot quicker.
I think some people were under the impression that your kit was going to create some large cooling gains. If its just to replace the factory pump, then that makes more sense. Although, do you actually have figures on the failure rate of the johnson pump? I mean, if the factory pump dies evers 30k miles, at a cost of $90 each replacement (Ford), it will cost $270 over 90k miles worth of driving. How much is the larger pump kit going to cost? Changing the pump out takes 30 minutes.
I respectifully disagree with you in regards to the larger heat exchanger. We dont disagree with the fact that the car could use more cooling capacity associated with the HE. But, the size numbers you are refering to are way off. The HE pictured is much larger than 10% the factory size. You are still increasing fluid capacity as well with a larger HE, especially if larger end tanks are used. Plus, you have significantly more surface area, as well as being twice as thick as the stock core. So, can the E55 setup be installed without removing the bumper? In the aftermarket, how many supercharged vehicles use a secondary HE, instead of replacing the primary one with a larger unit?
I think a larger HE is the largest cooling increase that can be obtained for this vehicle. A secondary unit is not needed, and I think its more detremental because of the blocking of air it creates. Everything else just supplements that.
07-30-2007, 01:41 PM
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I totally agree about adding a piggyback HE rather than a replacement. Has anyone gotten really creative on HE locations? I've not torn open much of the car, but obvious locations would be anywhere in the current routing of the coolant lines. Then, of course, you need airflow!
A larger HE is very common on many cars, and works perfectly. It just doesnt make sense to get all creative, when the answer is sitting right in front of you. We have board members who have run larger HEs with tremendously good results. The HE pictured was run by Steve for 2 years, and he never saw IA temps above 130. That was the only cooling upgrade to his vehicle. I also had great results from my Cobra, which uses the exact same setup as the C32 cooling system.
If someone offered a bolt-in HE that was significantly larger than the stock unit, it seems that would be the perfect solution.
07-30-2007, 01:42 PM
#33
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Nevermind my earlier post. That pump IS made by Bosch (hence the resemblance) and probably no less likely to fail.
But the pump below looks more stout and flows either 80 or 110 liters per minute. It's designed to replace an engine's belt-driven pump. The PDF on this page cites a 2000 hour estimated life. I'm sure that's an average; but frankly, that's similar to the Bosch's apparent pump life.
http://www.daviescraig.com.au/main/display.asp?pid=47
But the pump below looks more stout and flows either 80 or 110 liters per minute. It's designed to replace an engine's belt-driven pump. The PDF on this page cites a 2000 hour estimated life. I'm sure that's an average; but frankly, that's similar to the Bosch's apparent pump life.
http://www.daviescraig.com.au/main/display.asp?pid=47
07-30-2007, 01:47 PM
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Why reinvent the wheel? Why get creative on HE locations, we already have one, and its located perfectly...Then you are concerned about airflow, but you want to add a secondary HE in front of the stock one...?
A larger HE is very common on many cars, and works perfectly. It just doesnt make sense to get all creative, when the answer is sitting right in front of you. We have board members who have run larger HEs with tremendously good results. The HE pictured was run by Steve for 2 years, and he never saw IA temps above 130. That was the only cooling upgrade to his vehicle. I also had great results from my Cobra, which uses the exact same setup as the C32 cooling system.
If someone offered a bolt-in HE that was significantly larger than the stock unit, it seems that would be the perfect solution.
A larger HE is very common on many cars, and works perfectly. It just doesnt make sense to get all creative, when the answer is sitting right in front of you. We have board members who have run larger HEs with tremendously good results. The HE pictured was run by Steve for 2 years, and he never saw IA temps above 130. That was the only cooling upgrade to his vehicle. I also had great results from my Cobra, which uses the exact same setup as the C32 cooling system.
If someone offered a bolt-in HE that was significantly larger than the stock unit, it seems that would be the perfect solution.
Got it. I didn't realize that there was room to grow where the current HE is.
Has anyone added a booster fan to the HE? Probably helps when in traffic, but hurts flow at speed.
07-30-2007, 02:42 PM
#35
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I have a larger HE that will be installed in a few weeks. I think either way will work and is better than stock.
Ask 1FastC32...he has had the larger HE installed for some time now.
Ask 1FastC32...he has had the larger HE installed for some time now.
07-31-2007, 12:21 AM
#36
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I respectifully disagree with you in regards to the larger heat exchanger. We dont disagree with the fact that the car could use more cooling capacity associated with the HE. But, the size numbers you are refering to are way off. The HE pictured is much larger than 10% the factory size. You are still increasing fluid capacity as well with a larger HE, especially if larger end tanks are used. Plus, you have significantly more surface area, as well as being twice as thick as the stock core.
07-31-2007, 01:13 AM
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2010 E350 SP / Honda Crosstour / prior vehicles - C32 modded / C300 modded / Lincoln LS modded
I'm in Newport Beach O.C. have 03 c32 pretty much stock
May be interested. Pricing ? Time ? performce gains i.e. benefit ?
07-31-2007, 10:02 AM
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I agree with you as well. There is another point to make to in that the overall efficiency of aftermarket radiators (since that is essentially what these are) is far superior to OEM units. A fellow from the SRT-6 community added some methanol squirters to the HE to cool it down as guys do with air to air intercoolers. I'm sure an NOS intercooler spray bar would work even better. I know it isn't a common thing but it should cool the coolant down, what do you guys think?
07-31-2007, 10:08 AM
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I've always had a bias against that sort of upgrade anyway. I'm a purist and used to feel the same way about supercharging and turbocharging, but I've gotten over those performance "crutches." But NOS and spray coolers are still a bit too "hack" for me.
07-31-2007, 10:30 AM
#40
I agree with you as well. There is another point to make to in that the overall efficiency of aftermarket radiators (since that is essentially what these are) is far superior to OEM units. A fellow from the SRT-6 community added some methanol squirters to the HE to cool it down as guys do with air to air intercoolers. I'm sure an NOS intercooler spray bar would work even better. I know it isn't a common thing but it should cool the coolant down, what do you guys think?
having upgraded my Intercooler system, save for the pump itself, it would be easier to add a seperate reservoir that you can dump ice into whenever you want...it is cheap and readily available, unlike NOS...and, it will last about the same length of time...
07-31-2007, 07:10 PM
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DEI also makes a Cryogen system that can utalize a inercooler spray bar. Thay have tested it on several air to water intercoolers/heat exchangers. Test revealed to actually out perform the NOS style counterpart.
I beleive a kit that includes a larger flowing pump, and a larger cpacity/surface area heat echanger would be ideal. If it happens to be a direct replacement bolt on kit, you would have an awesome package that I would purchase instantly.
I beleive a kit that includes a larger flowing pump, and a larger cpacity/surface area heat echanger would be ideal. If it happens to be a direct replacement bolt on kit, you would have an awesome package that I would purchase instantly.
08-01-2007, 11:16 AM
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Well, the new HE went in last night 
Its huge...Surface area and thickness are doubled. I will start a new thread with pictures. Its shocking how large it is
Its huge...Surface area and thickness are doubled. I will start a new thread with pictures. Its shocking how large it is
08-01-2007, 02:10 PM
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08-02-2007, 06:00 PM
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07 E550, 02 C32, 91 300E
I'll be down in Claremont starting on the 20th of August so I might have to look you up considering the IC pump has never been replaced in mine (34k miles, 2002 model). However they do fail around this time right?
08-02-2007, 08:58 PM
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They apparently can fail at almost any time - I recently purchased a 2004 C32 w/ only 19k miles, and it was obvious that the pump had already failed (who knows when...) - fortunately I was able to have it replaced under warranty, but even that was a bit of a hassle (got the usual " sorry, we can't seem to re-create the same problem you're having" b.s.). Others have had theirs last many years and 50k+ miles - so who knows. My two cents - unless you're upgrading the HE at the same time, don't bother changing it until you're having symptoms of a failed IC pump.
08-07-2007, 02:03 AM
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yeah I guess I might do the extra HE addon that they were talking about also if I end up having the IC pump replaced too. It's so much hotter down in socal anyways haha.
08-08-2007, 06:35 PM
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Vadim, count me in on a plug and play replacment kit. I've never thought that replacing an unreliable part with another unreliable part is a good idea not matter how cheap it is to replace. I'd rather pay a little more and really fix the problem. Plus, the increase flow shouldn't hurt.
