My idea of IC Pump replacement
Thread Starter
Almost a Member!
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
From: Downtown Chicago
C32 AMG - Supra Turbo
My idea of IC Pump replacement
Well ive been looking over performance specs for the stock IC pump, the Johnson cm30 pump, and various other pumps on the market... I have done quite a few dedenbear pumps on cobras. The overall performance increase is unbelievable. it drastically lowers intake temps. I just need to figure out whether its worth it or not
Heres what ive come up with
:: Stock pump ::
Inlet: 20mm
Outlet: 20mm
Capacity: 14 lpm / 3.7 gpm
Current Draw: 2.1 amps
:: Johnson pump ::
Inlet: 20mm
Outlet: 20mm
Capacity: 22 lpm / 5.8 gpm
Current Draw: 2.2 amps
:: Dedenbear IC pump ::
Inlet: 3/4 npt
Outlet: 3/4 npt
Capacity: 56.8 lpm / 15gpm
Current Draw: 2.8 amps
Now considering that I am putting a larger heat exhanger on my car, i am afaid that the Stock/Johnson pumps just dont flow enough fluid to support the gallon's worth of increase in the cooling system. Although the dedenbear pump does cost about twice as much as a johnson, it flows about 3 times as much fluid.
I'm currently considering going that route and want to hear your guys opinions. You may be able to think of pros/cons or neccessities/uneccesaries that i didnt come up with.
picture of the pump attached
Heres what ive come up with
:: Stock pump ::
Inlet: 20mm
Outlet: 20mm
Capacity: 14 lpm / 3.7 gpm
Current Draw: 2.1 amps
:: Johnson pump ::
Inlet: 20mm
Outlet: 20mm
Capacity: 22 lpm / 5.8 gpm
Current Draw: 2.2 amps
:: Dedenbear IC pump ::
Inlet: 3/4 npt
Outlet: 3/4 npt
Capacity: 56.8 lpm / 15gpm
Current Draw: 2.8 amps
Now considering that I am putting a larger heat exhanger on my car, i am afaid that the Stock/Johnson pumps just dont flow enough fluid to support the gallon's worth of increase in the cooling system. Although the dedenbear pump does cost about twice as much as a johnson, it flows about 3 times as much fluid.
I'm currently considering going that route and want to hear your guys opinions. You may be able to think of pros/cons or neccessities/uneccesaries that i didnt come up with.
picture of the pump attached
Last edited by CNCRaceParts; Aug 27, 2007 at 08:44 PM.
Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
From: Whorelando
2003 C32 AMG
I think that that flow rate will be to much and not allow the HE to do its job. I think that the water will be pushed through to fast, and not spend the time needed in the HE to draw out the heat
Thread Starter
Almost a Member!
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
From: Downtown Chicago
C32 AMG - Supra Turbo
its a concept i applied to my liquid cooled computer. ill try to find it and post it up here
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,640
Likes: 11
From: GMT -8 hours
Mercedes-Benz
LOL. While you are at it, you should remove your cooling fans too because you want the air to spend the time needed in the HE to draw out the heat.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,194
Likes: 2
From: Diamond Bar & Anaheim, CA
2003 C-Class Sportcoupe
A few people have installed Johnsonn CM90 pumps on C32 and E55. CM90 flows 90 lpm and has 1.5" fittings. In theory, they can flow a max of 90 lpm, but realistically they don't flow that much because of restrictions in the water cooling system, namely the intercooler. Probably only pushing about 45 lpm in the real world. Problem with the CM90 IMO is it's massive (need to modify mounting bracket) and the 1.5" fittings need adapters to use the stock 3/4 tubing.
Trending Topics
Thread Starter
Almost a Member!
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
From: Downtown Chicago
C32 AMG - Supra Turbo
A few people have installed Johnsonn CM90 pumps on C32 and E55. CM90 flows 90 lpm and has 1.5" fittings. In theory, they can flow a max of 90 lpm, but realistically they don't flow that much because of restrictions in the water cooling system, namely the intercooler. Probably only pushing about 45 lpm in the real world. Problem with the CM90 IMO is it's massive (need to modify mounting bracket) and the 1.5" fittings need adapters to use the stock 3/4 tubing.
reason im looking at the dedenbear over the cm90 is mainly due to the fact that it is barely bigger than our stock pump! and also the dedenbear is rebuildable, and has similar port sizes to our current setup
its actually supposed to be a "near direct" swap for lightnings... which is a near direct swap for our c32s
MB World Stories
The Best of Mercedes & AMG
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Verdad Gallardo
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction
Verdad Gallardo
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
5 Underrated Mercedes-Benz Models That Don't Get the Love They Deserve
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes 300D Has Pushed Well Past 1 Million Miles and It Ain't Stopping
Verdad Gallardo
10 Most Reliable Mercedes-Benz Models You Can Buy Used
Verdad Gallardo
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,194
Likes: 2
From: Diamond Bar & Anaheim, CA
2003 C-Class Sportcoupe
i took a look at that one and noticed the size specs on it
reason im looking at the dedenbear over the cm90 is mainly due to the fact that it is barely bigger than our stock pump! and also the dedenbear is rebuildable, and has similar port sizes to our current setup
its actually supposed to be a "near direct" swap for lightnings... which is a near direct swap for our c32s
reason im looking at the dedenbear over the cm90 is mainly due to the fact that it is barely bigger than our stock pump! and also the dedenbear is rebuildable, and has similar port sizes to our current setup
its actually supposed to be a "near direct" swap for lightnings... which is a near direct swap for our c32s
SPONSOR
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 1
From: Ohio
...
Super Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 538
Likes: 2
From: Silicon valley
Audi C7.5 S6
Amazon says the Dedenbear pump can be had from Summit, but this one flows even more:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...CODE/ref=nosim
Dedenbear WP3
Water Pump, Electric, 23 gpm
$277.95
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
""The ultimate electric water pumps.
Dedenbear WP3s are the ultimate electric water pumps for dragsters and roadsters using remote, frame-mounted pumps. These universal pumps weigh just 3.25 lbs. and draw only 3 amps--yet they pump 15 gpm! They can be mounted in any position. Unlike rubber-impeller RV and boat units now in use, these rebuildable pumps feature a hard-anodized, billet-aluminum impeller and custom seal. The inlets accept either 1.25 in. hose or 3/4 in. NPT; the outlets are 3/4 in. NPT.""
Also from Lone Star Racing equipment, for $254.75
http://www.lonestarracing.com/shop/p...oducts_id=1146
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...CODE/ref=nosim
Dedenbear WP3
Water Pump, Electric, 23 gpm
$277.95
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
""The ultimate electric water pumps.
Dedenbear WP3s are the ultimate electric water pumps for dragsters and roadsters using remote, frame-mounted pumps. These universal pumps weigh just 3.25 lbs. and draw only 3 amps--yet they pump 15 gpm! They can be mounted in any position. Unlike rubber-impeller RV and boat units now in use, these rebuildable pumps feature a hard-anodized, billet-aluminum impeller and custom seal. The inlets accept either 1.25 in. hose or 3/4 in. NPT; the outlets are 3/4 in. NPT.""
Also from Lone Star Racing equipment, for $254.75
http://www.lonestarracing.com/shop/p...oducts_id=1146
Last edited by m444; Aug 28, 2007 at 12:16 PM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,949
Likes: 0
From: Philadelphia, PA
2008 A8L, 2002 996TT X50, 2009 X5
Since I'm not a thermodynamic engineer
I don't know jack about this topic, but the logic of "there's an optimal flow rate - faster isn't necessarily better" makes sense to me. If you work off the assumption that AMG's engineers matched the stock system capacity to the surface area of the HE and the flow rate of the IC pump, my guess is that if you double system fluid capacity and HE surface area, you also need to replace the IC pump to one that flows 2x stock to see optimal results. If you upgrade everything to 3x, you'd need a pump that flows 3x stock... etc etc.However, I also wouldn't be surprised if my math here is overly simplistic... also, perhaps system capacity isn't really a variable here, and it's just HE surface area vs. IC pump flow rate - who knows...
Anyway, if you go through with the mod, good luck! Will be interested to hear the results.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,513
Likes: 0
C32 AMG
There's a lot of conjecture about whether or not a higher-flowing IC pump will increase or decrease performance - agree w/ Fifth Ring that dyno runs'll tell the story.
Since I'm not a thermodynamic engineer I don't know jack about this topic, but the logic of "there's an optimal flow rate - faster isn't necessarily better" makes sense to me. If you work off the assumption that AMG's engineers matched the stock system capacity to the surface area of the HE and the flow rate of the IC pump, my guess is that if you double system fluid capacity and HE surface area, you also need to replace the IC pump to one that flows 2x stock to see optimal results. If you upgrade everything to 3x, you'd need a pump that flows 3x stock... etc etc.
However, I also wouldn't be surprised if my math here is overly simplistic... also, perhaps system capacity isn't really a variable here, and it's just HE surface area vs. IC pump flow rate - who knows...
Anyway, if you go through with the mod, good luck! Will be interested to hear the results.
Since I'm not a thermodynamic engineer
I don't know jack about this topic, but the logic of "there's an optimal flow rate - faster isn't necessarily better" makes sense to me. If you work off the assumption that AMG's engineers matched the stock system capacity to the surface area of the HE and the flow rate of the IC pump, my guess is that if you double system fluid capacity and HE surface area, you also need to replace the IC pump to one that flows 2x stock to see optimal results. If you upgrade everything to 3x, you'd need a pump that flows 3x stock... etc etc.However, I also wouldn't be surprised if my math here is overly simplistic... also, perhaps system capacity isn't really a variable here, and it's just HE surface area vs. IC pump flow rate - who knows...
Anyway, if you go through with the mod, good luck! Will be interested to hear the results.
Well, we all know how AMG engineers picked the flow rate of the stock pump. They opened the Bosch catalog. Just like the Ford folks did with the Lightning and Cobra!
I think it's an interesting pursuit, but to be worthwhile, it needs to generate HP under usable conditions. If it simply reduces heat soak when in traffic during the summer, I might not be interested. But give me two tenths off the 0-60 time (or even one tenth) and I may be on board. I kind of doubt that this will be feasible.
Banned
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,855
Likes: 2
From: Southern California
S600TT, R350
The graph below simplifies intercooler core efficiency versus coolant flow.
This is a somewhat generic graph, but the same principles apply to 32/55 cores. To achieve optimum cooling there is a certain flow that reaches efficiency peak, any extra flow after that results in a loss of efficiency, but the down slope is very shallow.
This is a somewhat generic graph, but the same principles apply to 32/55 cores. To achieve optimum cooling there is a certain flow that reaches efficiency peak, any extra flow after that results in a loss of efficiency, but the down slope is very shallow.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,513
Likes: 0
C32 AMG
The graph below simplifies intercooler core efficiency versus coolant flow.
This is a somewhat generic graph, but the same principles apply to 32/55 cores. To achieve optimum cooling there is a certain flow that reaches efficiency peak, any extra flow after that results in a loss of efficiency, but the down slope is very shallow.
This is a somewhat generic graph, but the same principles apply to 32/55 cores. To achieve optimum cooling there is a certain flow that reaches efficiency peak, any extra flow after that results in a loss of efficiency, but the down slope is very shallow.
I'll stay with what Dr. Benz gave me until I see some numbers!
