waffles?
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 0
They're not really integral as they pop out, but yes. On other cars I am told this adds more power as there is less restriction. MB dealer says it directs air and is a no no as can void warranty. Thoughts?
Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
2004 E55 AMG WAGON
Those screens are there to straighten turbulent airflow over the MAF so that it gets a correct reading. Removing this screen WILL cause the MAF to read incorrectly and therefore the computer will operate on incorrect data resulting in a LOSS of both performance and driveability. I have experience in this field and this information is fact not opinion.
Super Moderator
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,365
Likes: 12
From: Orange County, CA
GMC - Miata - Trek - P-Car
+1
For once, I’m pleased to have the lowly supercharged V6, sans MAF.
Granted, it’s tempting to get that BS out of the intake tract. No doubt, on a flow bench, 86ing the screen(s) will result in increased airflow. However, it may manifest itself in spurious readings and poor drivability. They serve two purposes. Most importantly, they act to straighten and “condition” the incoming air so that an accurate reading can be obtained, and by so doing properly communicate the correct mixture strength data to the DME. It also, of course, acts as a failsafe for the ham-fisted technician who may be careless during service. We know that’s not the case with you.
Some of the gearheads with whom I associate have experienced unfavorable results from eliminating the screens on their OE sensors. That they happen to race domestic marques is immaterial. Surprisingly, they’re invariably Bosch parts. The guys who have successfully tweaked their OE MAF have done so only with a complementing aftermarket tune. I’ve read about the downside in various respected periodicals, as well. I am never one to dissuade others from properly modifying their car. If it works, you may have a subtle tweak to call your own. If it doesn’t, your 113 094 00 48 MAF sensor can be had for ~$300.
Have the Porsche guys you know done it successfully?
For once, I’m pleased to have the lowly supercharged V6, sans MAF.
Granted, it’s tempting to get that BS out of the intake tract. No doubt, on a flow bench, 86ing the screen(s) will result in increased airflow. However, it may manifest itself in spurious readings and poor drivability. They serve two purposes. Most importantly, they act to straighten and “condition” the incoming air so that an accurate reading can be obtained, and by so doing properly communicate the correct mixture strength data to the DME. It also, of course, acts as a failsafe for the ham-fisted technician who may be careless during service. We know that’s not the case with you.
Some of the gearheads with whom I associate have experienced unfavorable results from eliminating the screens on their OE sensors. That they happen to race domestic marques is immaterial. Surprisingly, they’re invariably Bosch parts. The guys who have successfully tweaked their OE MAF have done so only with a complementing aftermarket tune. I’ve read about the downside in various respected periodicals, as well. I am never one to dissuade others from properly modifying their car. If it works, you may have a subtle tweak to call your own. If it doesn’t, your 113 094 00 48 MAF sensor can be had for ~$300.
Have the Porsche guys you know done it successfully?
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 0
I did it sucessfully in my 996 and all the intake co's recommend it. I took it out a while back ran it back and forth with it back in and it seems to make it pull a bit more, but am undecided and wanted to know if anyone else had done the same. I'm also running K&N's. I will say that it idled a little more sloppily and maybe accelerated not quite as smooth but from the butt dyno it seemed to rev faster and pull harder esp at the top end. I'll try it again to get a better memory of the difference. I put them back in before service as the dealer told me to last time. It's smooth but doesn't seem to pull as hard, however I remember that with some cars smoother actually is faster.
SPONSOR
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 1
From: Ohio
...
Those screens are there to straighten turbulent airflow over the MAF so that it gets a correct reading. Removing this screen WILL cause the MAF to read incorrectly and therefore the computer will operate on incorrect data resulting in a LOSS of both performance and driveability. I have experience in this field and this information is fact not opinion.
Trending Topics
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 0
Here is what I was talking about for the 996:
http://www.fabspeed.com/996_GT3.html
It basically is a better hose, filters takes out the muffler and has a smoothing riing and tells you to take the waffles out-
http://www.fabspeed.com/996_GT3.html
It basically is a better hose, filters takes out the muffler and has a smoothing riing and tells you to take the waffles out-
MB World Stories
The Best of Mercedes & AMG
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Verdad Gallardo
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction
Verdad Gallardo
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
5 Underrated Mercedes-Benz Models That Don't Get the Love They Deserve
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes 300D Has Pushed Well Past 1 Million Miles and It Ain't Stopping
Verdad Gallardo
10 Most Reliable Mercedes-Benz Models You Can Buy Used
Verdad Gallardo
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 1
From: Chicago
04 C32
I've removed the combs from previous MAF vehicles back when I was poor and wanted a free way to tweak the AFR. Removing the combs caused the MAF to function improperly and "see" less air, so the car injected less fuel which resulted in a leaner AFR. The leaner AFR produced more power. The side effect was that the car ran worse at idle and part throttle conditions. It is obviously much better to tweak the AFR through the ECU, but hey, this was ten years ago and ECU AFR tuning was expensive.
Don't do it.
Don't do it.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 1
From: Chicago
04 C32
Yes, more air would flow. I am referring to what the MAF registers. They are calibrated with the honeycombs in there. Without them, they do not get an accurate reading, and output a lower reading than what is actually flowing through.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 0
How are they "calibrated"?? My understanding is that they just read the air coming in by hot wire on that diode and measuring the air off that, no?
Are you saying that they're that discrete? If that were the case then you couldn't use them with a SC which is clearly not the case as there is no need for replacement without, and they're not running in closed loop mode either in that setup.
Not trying to quible but your arguments don't really seem to make sense. The only credible thing that I have heard is from my maste mechanic that he said the comb directs air, which upon taking it out and looking at it, the grates are actually tapered. Again, I am just trying to understand how your explanation would be supported.
Are you saying that they're that discrete? If that were the case then you couldn't use them with a SC which is clearly not the case as there is no need for replacement without, and they're not running in closed loop mode either in that setup.
Not trying to quible but your arguments don't really seem to make sense. The only credible thing that I have heard is from my maste mechanic that he said the comb directs air, which upon taking it out and looking at it, the grates are actually tapered. Again, I am just trying to understand how your explanation would be supported.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 1
From: Chicago
04 C32
How are they "calibrated"?? My understanding is that they just read the air coming in by hot wire on that diode and measuring the air off that, no?
Are you saying that they're that discrete? If that were the case then you couldn't use them with a SC which is clearly not the case as there is no need for replacement without, and they're not running in closed loop mode either in that setup.
Not trying to quible but your arguments don't really seem to make sense. The only credible thing that I have heard is from my maste mechanic that he said the comb directs air, which upon taking it out and looking at it, the grates are actually tapered. Again, I am just trying to understand how your explanation would be supported.
Are you saying that they're that discrete? If that were the case then you couldn't use them with a SC which is clearly not the case as there is no need for replacement without, and they're not running in closed loop mode either in that setup.
Not trying to quible but your arguments don't really seem to make sense. The only credible thing that I have heard is from my maste mechanic that he said the comb directs air, which upon taking it out and looking at it, the grates are actually tapered. Again, I am just trying to understand how your explanation would be supported.
The ones that I worked with were bench calibrated at the factory. There was a tiny adjustment screw that adjusted the output until it gave an accurate output. They were calibrated WITH the honeycombs. When you remove a comb, the meter does not get an accurate reading. You do realize that the MAF is measuring air flow, correct?
I'm telling you my experience from working on previous MAFs. Removing a comb caused the MAF to output a lower reading than what was actually flowing through. I don't know how to make that any more clear. You seem to be getting confused on that part since you think more air will flow through without them. As I said above, yes, more air will flow though, but the MAF will still output a lower reading than what is ACTUALLY flowing through. Has your mechanic actually tried removing the honeycombs and seeing what happens?
If you say that my account is not credible, I don't really have point in answering any more of your questions.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 0
First, your taking my post the wrong way, although I really don't care.
I am trying to see how you prove your theory. I am quite familiar with the fact that this discussion is limited to MAF, as I have never mentioned a pressure style system, only you have tangentally done so, for no reason.
It seems you have no clue how these MAF systems work. There is NO set screw; they are a sealed epoxy unit with a diode. Maybe you should limit your comments on actual knowledge, or better yet refrain altogether.
You clearly either didn't bother reading my posts, or have incredibly poor reading comprehension, by making your statement questioning my undersanding of MAF when I specifically described HOW the heated MAF works, which you stipulated you lack any knowledge of operation other than irrelevancy.
You merely repeat the same statement that more air flows but is measured as less without any further support regarding the calibration as I inquired.
All I am trying to do is gain more insight why. You clearly don't know and are wasting my time.
I am trying to see how you prove your theory. I am quite familiar with the fact that this discussion is limited to MAF, as I have never mentioned a pressure style system, only you have tangentally done so, for no reason.
It seems you have no clue how these MAF systems work. There is NO set screw; they are a sealed epoxy unit with a diode. Maybe you should limit your comments on actual knowledge, or better yet refrain altogether.
You clearly either didn't bother reading my posts, or have incredibly poor reading comprehension, by making your statement questioning my undersanding of MAF when I specifically described HOW the heated MAF works, which you stipulated you lack any knowledge of operation other than irrelevancy.
You merely repeat the same statement that more air flows but is measured as less without any further support regarding the calibration as I inquired.
All I am trying to do is gain more insight why. You clearly don't know and are wasting my time.
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 383
Likes: 0
From: Peoria, Arizona
RENNtech C32 AMG
SPR, Why don't you just take the waffle grill off put the intake back on and drive around the block a few times and see what happens? If it doesn't run poorly after, and does not set a CEL, then keep it that way. If it does run poorly and sets the CEL, then put it back in and go to Auto Zone and reset the codes for free. Worst case scenario, if the codes remain pending and will not reset, visit the dealer, since the car is presumably still under warranty and have them check it out. Best case scenario, they will say, as they usually do, No Problem Found and will reset the computer.
Then you will have answered your own question by doing this very simple test
Then you will have answered your own question by doing this very simple test
Last edited by calimax; Nov 27, 2007 at 12:14 PM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 1
From: Chicago
04 C32
First, your taking my post the wrong way, although I really don't care.
I am trying to see how you prove your theory. I am quite familiar with the fact that this discussion is limited to MAF, as I have never mentioned a pressure style system, only you have tangentally done so, for no reason.
It seems you have no clue how these MAF systems work. There is NO set screw; they are a sealed epoxy unit with a diode. Maybe you should limit your comments on actual knowledge, or better yet refrain altogether.
You clearly either didn't bother reading my posts, or have incredibly poor reading comprehension, by making your statement questioning my undersanding of MAF when I specifically described HOW the heated MAF works, which you stipulated you lack any knowledge of operation other than irrelevancy.
You merely repeat the same statement that more air flows but is measured as less without any further support regarding the calibration as I inquired.
All I am trying to do is gain more insight why. You clearly don't know and are wasting my time.
I am trying to see how you prove your theory. I am quite familiar with the fact that this discussion is limited to MAF, as I have never mentioned a pressure style system, only you have tangentally done so, for no reason.
It seems you have no clue how these MAF systems work. There is NO set screw; they are a sealed epoxy unit with a diode. Maybe you should limit your comments on actual knowledge, or better yet refrain altogether.
You clearly either didn't bother reading my posts, or have incredibly poor reading comprehension, by making your statement questioning my undersanding of MAF when I specifically described HOW the heated MAF works, which you stipulated you lack any knowledge of operation other than irrelevancy.
You merely repeat the same statement that more air flows but is measured as less without any further support regarding the calibration as I inquired.
All I am trying to do is gain more insight why. You clearly don't know and are wasting my time.
My support is from actual experience. This was a very popular modification to MAFs in the mid 90s. When it comes down to explaining WHY it causes a lower reading, you seem to be getting lost. The meter was designed to operate WITH the honeycombs. When you remove the combs, the vorticies are not exactly how the meter expected them to be, so it gives an inaccurate reading.
You posted a question, and you seem to already know your answer since your master tech told you, but you don't want any testimonials from actual experience. Why do you bother posting?
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 1
From: Chicago
04 C32
SPR, Why don't you just take the waffle grill off put the intake back on and drive around the block a few times and see what happens? If it doesn't run poorly after, and does not set a CEL, then keep it that way. If it does run poorly and sets the CEL, then put it back in and go to Auto Zone and reset the codes for free. Worst case scenario, if the codes remain pending and will not reset, visit the dealer, since the car is presumably still under warranty and have them check it out. Best case scenario, they will say, as they usually do, No Problem Found and will reset the computer.
Then you will have answered your own question by doing this very simple test
Then you will have answered your own question by doing this very simple test
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 0
Hey Calimex,
I have actually, and it seemed to add much more mid and top pull and no cel.
However, I know that sometimes smooth power is deceptive as it doesn't seem as fast but is actually faster, hence my inquiry whether anyone has done a dyno regarding that on a C55 or any 55NA. That's why I was inquiring. Most Porsche guys do the same removal and have an increase as well for 996's. Interesting as all the aftermarket systems for Porsche don't have them and make more power. (It's the same (style at least) MAF)
I have actually, and it seemed to add much more mid and top pull and no cel.
However, I know that sometimes smooth power is deceptive as it doesn't seem as fast but is actually faster, hence my inquiry whether anyone has done a dyno regarding that on a C55 or any 55NA. That's why I was inquiring. Most Porsche guys do the same removal and have an increase as well for 996's. Interesting as all the aftermarket systems for Porsche don't have them and make more power. (It's the same (style at least) MAF)
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 0
Read my post above. I have removed them and am trying to verify my observations. Regarding my master tech, I am only stating what he said regarding directing air and my observation of the grate. Again it appears your experience with adjustable MAF's is irrelevant to these units as you have no first hand knoweldge. I have stated my experiences with this type on multiple vehicles. If no one else is chiming in, I'll research it elsewhere.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 0
It's not over my head when there is ZERO support for your arguments other than your mere assertion and pathetic insult. 
For anyone else, I have emailed Fabspeed who made the kit on my Porsche removing the screens asking him to explain the effect and whether the MAF will be affected either way. I'll let you know, however I am not going to waste my time any further with this person above.
For anyone else, I have emailed Fabspeed who made the kit on my Porsche removing the screens asking him to explain the effect and whether the MAF will be affected either way. I'll let you know, however I am not going to waste my time any further with this person above.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 1
From: Chicago
04 C32
It's not over my head when there is ZERO support for your arguments other than your mere assertion and pathetic insult.
For anyone else, I have emailed Fabspeed who made the kit on my Porsche removing the screens asking him to explain the effect and whether the MAF will be affected either way. I'll let you know, however I am not going to waste my time any further with this person above.
For anyone else, I have emailed Fabspeed who made the kit on my Porsche removing the screens asking him to explain the effect and whether the MAF will be affected either way. I'll let you know, however I am not going to waste my time any further with this person above.
EDIT: I think you misunderstood what I meant by the calibration. You asked about calibration so I was trying to explain that they are calibrated at the sensor factory. They are NOT adjustable MAFs.
Last edited by jgsx; Nov 27, 2007 at 01:47 PM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,224
Likes: 6
From: S.E. FLA.
05 ML-500 , 03 CLK5.5 AMG has left the Garage
Descreened Mas air Flow sensor
Do a Search DeScreened Mass air Flow
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back about a Yearago. GTA 23109a was kind enough to give me this descreening Tip & Rflow 306 confirmed it . I say It works quite well , with no bad side effects at all . I sware it was worth a free 7 hp !! Give it a try
Please see attach Picture
Attached Thumbnails Her's the short cut https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/209121-mod-mas-sensor-worth-10-hp.html Cheers ___PTE___
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back about a Yearago. GTA 23109a was kind enough to give me this descreening Tip & Rflow 306 confirmed it . I say It works quite well , with no bad side effects at all . I sware it was worth a free 7 hp !! Give it a try
Please see attach Picture
Attached Thumbnails Her's the short cut https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/209121-mod-mas-sensor-worth-10-hp.html Cheers ___PTE___
Last edited by PTE; Nov 27, 2007 at 02:59 PM.
Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 207
Likes: 1
From: Redondo Beach
Z06, M3, Mini Cooper S. Sold: C55
The screen is basically a flow straightener & the readings are more accurate with it in. However, it is restrictive, and you will flow more CFM with less pressure drop without it. The risk, as others have said is a slightly off mixture (probably good in our case as C55's I've seen run rich) and a possibly rough idle. Heck mine idled rough from day 1 & the dealer said it was normal.
I did a similar mod once where I replaced the factory fine mesh screen that had small openings with a screen that had larger openings. It will have some effect on the air speed through the MAF & changed the mixture slightly, but overall it seemed to have slightly more power with the new screen.
Dealer will hate you though, so be careful or pick up a 2cd MAF for when you take it in for service.
I did a similar mod once where I replaced the factory fine mesh screen that had small openings with a screen that had larger openings. It will have some effect on the air speed through the MAF & changed the mixture slightly, but overall it seemed to have slightly more power with the new screen.
Dealer will hate you though, so be careful or pick up a 2cd MAF for when you take it in for service.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 0
I spoke to an engineer yesterday and he explained it very well. The leaning idea is actually innopposite. Without me trying to paraphrase, I am having him write me an email regarding all theory and explanation to put it to rest and will post.
The end result? Yes it reads just fine and does not actually run leaner if anything he said probably richer, e.g. more fuel as there is more air going through. By that I mean not ratio but overall fuel use as more air is induced because more cfm- It was very understandable once he stated all of the theory and confirms my observations. I'll post it when he sends the email.
The end result? Yes it reads just fine and does not actually run leaner if anything he said probably richer, e.g. more fuel as there is more air going through. By that I mean not ratio but overall fuel use as more air is induced because more cfm- It was very understandable once he stated all of the theory and confirms my observations. I'll post it when he sends the email.
