12 Weeks; $6,800+; And More to Come
01-02-2009, 12:54 PM
#1
Super Member
Thread Starter
12 Weeks; $6,800+; And More to Come
No this isn't the title to the next Box Office hit. 
The following is a brief recap of what has been going on for the last 12 weeks with my car. I will be happy to go into greater detail, time permitting, and if anyone has any questions:
C3P spent many (did I say many) hours, days, weeks trying different pulley combinations: 181 crank with the standard C3P set-up; 181 with a larger (a.k.a. the "mid-sized") s/c pulley; and ended with the true and tested 185mm LET pulley w.out a C3P s/c pulley.
All testing was conducted while running water/meth, the infamous larger injectors, and the larger BDJ plenums. Also noteworthy: the s/c itself was ported by Stigmeier; the secondary cats were removed; the C3P: s/c intercooler, HE and IC; a Johnson pump; and a direct port NOS set-up was installed by the boys at HP Autoworks in Santa Barbara.
The end result was VERY dissapointing, from a performance standpoint, generating 328/345 (rwhp/rwtq) while running the 185mm crank pulley, the larger injectors and plenums and the aforementioned add ons, less the NOS.
All in all, there were too many modifications that were applied to the vehicle at once, thereby rendering the "trial and error" process almost impossible.
After spending numerous (35+ hours) of tuning, a BIG THANK YOU to LET (Jerry, Wayne and Erick - You are my HEROS) and data logging, we have come to the conclusion that the larger injectors are not the solution to the "lack of fuel" when running a dual pulley combo, or a single 185mm crank pulley for that matter. Furthermore, the larger injectors inhibited the performance of the vehicle in the lower RPM range, where the car was "flooded" with fuel, and resulted in a real quagmire when attempting to tune.
I had the car back in my possession for 1 week exactly (Dec 24-Jan 1) and the car just went back to C3P's headquarters where it will undergo further changes, including the removal of: the larger injectors; and the BDJ plenums.
At this stage, the intent is to make the most power while running the 185mm LET pulley, the stock injectors and plenums, and possibly a little NOS.
Water/meth may be turned on once we have the aforementioned making the right #'s.
Summary: $6,800+ in expenses (and stil counting); 12 weeks of testing (without my car), and more to come.
I will keep everyone posted on results.
Happy New Year everyone!
The following is a brief recap of what has been going on for the last 12 weeks with my car. I will be happy to go into greater detail, time permitting, and if anyone has any questions:
C3P spent many (did I say many) hours, days, weeks trying different pulley combinations: 181 crank with the standard C3P set-up; 181 with a larger (a.k.a. the "mid-sized") s/c pulley; and ended with the true and tested 185mm LET pulley w.out a C3P s/c pulley.
All testing was conducted while running water/meth, the infamous larger injectors, and the larger BDJ plenums. Also noteworthy: the s/c itself was ported by Stigmeier; the secondary cats were removed; the C3P: s/c intercooler, HE and IC; a Johnson pump; and a direct port NOS set-up was installed by the boys at HP Autoworks in Santa Barbara.
The end result was VERY dissapointing, from a performance standpoint, generating 328/345 (rwhp/rwtq) while running the 185mm crank pulley, the larger injectors and plenums and the aforementioned add ons, less the NOS.
All in all, there were too many modifications that were applied to the vehicle at once, thereby rendering the "trial and error" process almost impossible.
After spending numerous (35+ hours) of tuning, a BIG THANK YOU to LET (Jerry, Wayne and Erick - You are my HEROS) and data logging, we have come to the conclusion that the larger injectors are not the solution to the "lack of fuel" when running a dual pulley combo, or a single 185mm crank pulley for that matter. Furthermore, the larger injectors inhibited the performance of the vehicle in the lower RPM range, where the car was "flooded" with fuel, and resulted in a real quagmire when attempting to tune.
I had the car back in my possession for 1 week exactly (Dec 24-Jan 1) and the car just went back to C3P's headquarters where it will undergo further changes, including the removal of: the larger injectors; and the BDJ plenums.
At this stage, the intent is to make the most power while running the 185mm LET pulley, the stock injectors and plenums, and possibly a little NOS.
Water/meth may be turned on once we have the aforementioned making the right #'s.
Summary: $6,800+ in expenses (and stil counting); 12 weeks of testing (without my car), and more to come.
I will keep everyone posted on results.
Happy New Year everyone!
Last edited by AirFrcd; 01-02-2009 at 12:58 PM.
01-02-2009, 03:13 PM
#2
MBWorld Fanatic!
No this isn't the title to the next Box Office hit.
The following is a brief recap of what has been going on for the last 12 weeks with my car. I will be happy to go into greater detail, time permitting, and if anyone has any questions:
C3P spent many (did I say many) hours, days, weeks trying different pulley combinations: 181 crank with the standard C3P set-up; 181 with a larger (a.k.a. the "mid-sized") s/c pulley; and ended with the true and tested 185mm LET pulley w.out a C3P s/c pulley.
All testing was conducted while running water/meth, the infamous larger injectors, and the larger BDJ plenums. Also noteworthy: the s/c itself was ported by Stigmeier; the secondary cats were removed; the C3P: s/c intercooler, HE and IC; a Johnson pump; and a direct port NOS set-up was installed by the boys at HP Autoworks in Santa Barbara.
The end result was VERY dissapointing, from a performance standpoint, generating 328/345 (rwhp/rwtq) while running the 185mm crank pulley, the larger injectors and plenums and the aforementioned add ons, less the NOS.
All in all, there were too many modifications that were applied to the vehicle at once, thereby rendering the "trial and error" process almost impossible.
After spending numerous (35+ hours) of tuning, a BIG THANK YOU to LET (Jerry, Wayne and Erick - You are my HEROS) and data logging, we have come to the conclusion that the larger injectors are not the solution to the "lack of fuel" when running a dual pulley combo, or a single 185mm crank pulley for that matter. Furthermore, the larger injectors inhibited the performance of the vehicle in the lower RPM range, where the car was "flooded" with fuel, and resulted in a real quagmire when attempting to tune.
I had the car back in my possession for 1 week exactly (Dec 24-Jan 1) and the car just went back to C3P's headquarters where it will undergo further changes, including the removal of: the larger injectors; and the BDJ plenums.
At this stage, the intent is to make the most power while running the 185mm LET pulley, the stock injectors and plenums, and possibly a little NOS.
Water/meth may be turned on once we have the aforementioned making the right #'s.
Summary: $6,800+ in expenses (and stil counting); 12 weeks of testing (without my car), and more to come.
I will keep everyone posted on results.
Happy New Year everyone!
The following is a brief recap of what has been going on for the last 12 weeks with my car. I will be happy to go into greater detail, time permitting, and if anyone has any questions:
C3P spent many (did I say many) hours, days, weeks trying different pulley combinations: 181 crank with the standard C3P set-up; 181 with a larger (a.k.a. the "mid-sized") s/c pulley; and ended with the true and tested 185mm LET pulley w.out a C3P s/c pulley.
All testing was conducted while running water/meth, the infamous larger injectors, and the larger BDJ plenums. Also noteworthy: the s/c itself was ported by Stigmeier; the secondary cats were removed; the C3P: s/c intercooler, HE and IC; a Johnson pump; and a direct port NOS set-up was installed by the boys at HP Autoworks in Santa Barbara.
The end result was VERY dissapointing, from a performance standpoint, generating 328/345 (rwhp/rwtq) while running the 185mm crank pulley, the larger injectors and plenums and the aforementioned add ons, less the NOS.
All in all, there were too many modifications that were applied to the vehicle at once, thereby rendering the "trial and error" process almost impossible.
After spending numerous (35+ hours) of tuning, a BIG THANK YOU to LET (Jerry, Wayne and Erick - You are my HEROS) and data logging, we have come to the conclusion that the larger injectors are not the solution to the "lack of fuel" when running a dual pulley combo, or a single 185mm crank pulley for that matter. Furthermore, the larger injectors inhibited the performance of the vehicle in the lower RPM range, where the car was "flooded" with fuel, and resulted in a real quagmire when attempting to tune.
I had the car back in my possession for 1 week exactly (Dec 24-Jan 1) and the car just went back to C3P's headquarters where it will undergo further changes, including the removal of: the larger injectors; and the BDJ plenums.
At this stage, the intent is to make the most power while running the 185mm LET pulley, the stock injectors and plenums, and possibly a little NOS.
Water/meth may be turned on once we have the aforementioned making the right #'s.
Summary: $6,800+ in expenses (and stil counting); 12 weeks of testing (without my car), and more to come.
I will keep everyone posted on results.
Happy New Year everyone!
guess 185 is the best way to go. I recall seeing one guy with a custom 190 or 192mm pulley custom made. Wonder how much HP his making
01-02-2009, 03:27 PM
#3
MBWorld Fanatic!
No this isn't the title to the next Box Office hit.
The following is a brief recap of what has been going on for the last 12 weeks with my car. I will be happy to go into greater detail, time permitting, and if anyone has any questions:
C3P spent many (did I say many) hours, days, weeks trying different pulley combinations: 181 crank with the standard C3P set-up; 181 with a larger (a.k.a. the "mid-sized") s/c pulley; and ended with the true and tested 185mm LET pulley w.out a C3P s/c pulley.
All testing was conducted while running water/meth, the infamous larger injectors, and the larger BDJ plenums. Also noteworthy: the s/c itself was ported by Stigmeier; the secondary cats were removed; the C3P: s/c intercooler, HE and IC; a Johnson pump; and a direct port NOS set-up was installed by the boys at HP Autoworks in Santa Barbara.
The end result was VERY dissapointing, from a performance standpoint, generating 328/345 (rwhp/rwtq) while running the 185mm crank pulley, the larger injectors and plenums and the aforementioned add ons, less the NOS.
All in all, there were too many modifications that were applied to the vehicle at once, thereby rendering the "trial and error" process almost impossible.
After spending numerous (35+ hours) of tuning, a BIG THANK YOU to LET (Jerry, Wayne and Erick - You are my HEROS) and data logging, we have come to the conclusion that the larger injectors are not the solution to the "lack of fuel" when running a dual pulley combo, or a single 185mm crank pulley for that matter. Furthermore, the larger injectors inhibited the performance of the vehicle in the lower RPM range, where the car was "flooded" with fuel, and resulted in a real quagmire when attempting to tune.
I had the car back in my possession for 1 week exactly (Dec 24-Jan 1) and the car just went back to C3P's headquarters where it will undergo further changes, including the removal of: the larger injectors; and the BDJ plenums.
At this stage, the intent is to make the most power while running the 185mm LET pulley, the stock injectors and plenums, and possibly a little NOS.
Water/meth may be turned on once we have the aforementioned making the right #'s.
Summary: $6,800+ in expenses (and stil counting); 12 weeks of testing (without my car), and more to come.
I will keep everyone posted on results.
Happy New Year everyone!
The following is a brief recap of what has been going on for the last 12 weeks with my car. I will be happy to go into greater detail, time permitting, and if anyone has any questions:
C3P spent many (did I say many) hours, days, weeks trying different pulley combinations: 181 crank with the standard C3P set-up; 181 with a larger (a.k.a. the "mid-sized") s/c pulley; and ended with the true and tested 185mm LET pulley w.out a C3P s/c pulley.
All testing was conducted while running water/meth, the infamous larger injectors, and the larger BDJ plenums. Also noteworthy: the s/c itself was ported by Stigmeier; the secondary cats were removed; the C3P: s/c intercooler, HE and IC; a Johnson pump; and a direct port NOS set-up was installed by the boys at HP Autoworks in Santa Barbara.
The end result was VERY dissapointing, from a performance standpoint, generating 328/345 (rwhp/rwtq) while running the 185mm crank pulley, the larger injectors and plenums and the aforementioned add ons, less the NOS.
All in all, there were too many modifications that were applied to the vehicle at once, thereby rendering the "trial and error" process almost impossible.
After spending numerous (35+ hours) of tuning, a BIG THANK YOU to LET (Jerry, Wayne and Erick - You are my HEROS) and data logging, we have come to the conclusion that the larger injectors are not the solution to the "lack of fuel" when running a dual pulley combo, or a single 185mm crank pulley for that matter. Furthermore, the larger injectors inhibited the performance of the vehicle in the lower RPM range, where the car was "flooded" with fuel, and resulted in a real quagmire when attempting to tune.
I had the car back in my possession for 1 week exactly (Dec 24-Jan 1) and the car just went back to C3P's headquarters where it will undergo further changes, including the removal of: the larger injectors; and the BDJ plenums.
At this stage, the intent is to make the most power while running the 185mm LET pulley, the stock injectors and plenums, and possibly a little NOS.
Water/meth may be turned on once we have the aforementioned making the right #'s.
Summary: $6,800+ in expenses (and stil counting); 12 weeks of testing (without my car), and more to come.
I will keep everyone posted on results.
Happy New Year everyone!
So glad I decided to go with a LET 185.
Well, good luck in the new year for your quest for more, more and MORE power! I know its addicting.
01-02-2009, 04:07 PM
#4
SPONSOR
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Houston/ Austin /Toronto / UAE / Minneapolis / Orlando /Cincinnati
Posts: 5,459
Received 149 Likes
on
109 Posts
Eurocharged Performance ML63 and TT lambo
He had to machine down the water pump to get it to fit right, and also has the heads ported and polished. In the end he is making close to the same power as I am.
Best best for the $ is definately the 185.
I know some great detain on what you were attempting to accomplish c3p, and can't believe that it has come to this. I had also heard from Jerry what a nightmare tuning that monster was.
So, you going to keep the car now and not sell her?
01-02-2009, 05:06 PM
#5
Super Member
Thread Starter
Best best for the $ is definately the 185.
I know some great detain on what you were attempting to accomplish c3p, and can't believe that it has come to this. I had also heard from Jerry what a nightmare tuning that monster was.
So, you going to keep the car now and not sell her?
I know some great detain on what you were attempting to accomplish c3p, and can't believe that it has come to this. I had also heard from Jerry what a nightmare tuning that monster was.
So, you going to keep the car now and not sell her?
Yup, I am keeping the car, and BTW - I also purchased a "spare" motor with 8K miles, you know, just in case
01-02-2009, 06:06 PM
#6
MBWorld Fanatic!
01-02-2009, 06:17 PM
#7
SPONSOR
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Houston/ Austin /Toronto / UAE / Minneapolis / Orlando /Cincinnati
Posts: 5,459
Received 149 Likes
on
109 Posts
Eurocharged Performance ML63 and TT lambo
You going forward on making the car faster or on to another project?
Trending Topics
01-02-2009, 07:55 PM
#8
Super Member
Thread Starter
01-02-2009, 11:28 PM
#10
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Dallas
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CL 600
No this isn't the title to the next Box Office hit.
The following is a brief recap of what has been going on for the last 12 weeks with my car. I will be happy to go into greater detail, time permitting, and if anyone has any questions:
C3P spent many (did I say many) hours, days, weeks trying different pulley combinations: 181 crank with the standard C3P set-up; 181 with a larger (a.k.a. the "mid-sized") s/c pulley; and ended with the true and tested 185mm LET pulley w.out a C3P s/c pulley.
All testing was conducted while running water/meth, the infamous larger injectors, and the larger BDJ plenums. Also noteworthy: the s/c itself was ported by Stigmeier; the secondary cats were removed; the C3P: s/c intercooler, HE and IC; a Johnson pump; and a direct port NOS set-up was installed by the boys at HP Autoworks in Santa Barbara.
The end result was VERY dissapointing, from a performance standpoint, generating 328/345 (rwhp/rwtq) while running the 185mm crank pulley, the larger injectors and plenums and the aforementioned add ons, less the NOS.
All in all, there were too many modifications that were applied to the vehicle at once, thereby rendering the "trial and error" process almost impossible.
After spending numerous (35+ hours) of tuning, a BIG THANK YOU to LET (Jerry, Wayne and Erick - You are my HEROS) and data logging, we have come to the conclusion that the larger injectors are not the solution to the "lack of fuel" when running a dual pulley combo, or a single 185mm crank pulley for that matter. Furthermore, the larger injectors inhibited the performance of the vehicle in the lower RPM range, where the car was "flooded" with fuel, and resulted in a real quagmire when attempting to tune.
I had the car back in my possession for 1 week exactly (Dec 24-Jan 1) and the car just went back to C3P's headquarters where it will undergo further changes, including the removal of: the larger injectors; and the BDJ plenums.
At this stage, the intent is to make the most power while running the 185mm LET pulley, the stock injectors and plenums, and possibly a little NOS.
Water/meth may be turned on once we have the aforementioned making the right #'s.
Summary: $6,800+ in expenses (and stil counting); 12 weeks of testing (without my car), and more to come.
I will keep everyone posted on results.
Happy New Year everyone!
The following is a brief recap of what has been going on for the last 12 weeks with my car. I will be happy to go into greater detail, time permitting, and if anyone has any questions:
C3P spent many (did I say many) hours, days, weeks trying different pulley combinations: 181 crank with the standard C3P set-up; 181 with a larger (a.k.a. the "mid-sized") s/c pulley; and ended with the true and tested 185mm LET pulley w.out a C3P s/c pulley.
All testing was conducted while running water/meth, the infamous larger injectors, and the larger BDJ plenums. Also noteworthy: the s/c itself was ported by Stigmeier; the secondary cats were removed; the C3P: s/c intercooler, HE and IC; a Johnson pump; and a direct port NOS set-up was installed by the boys at HP Autoworks in Santa Barbara.
The end result was VERY dissapointing, from a performance standpoint, generating 328/345 (rwhp/rwtq) while running the 185mm crank pulley, the larger injectors and plenums and the aforementioned add ons, less the NOS.
All in all, there were too many modifications that were applied to the vehicle at once, thereby rendering the "trial and error" process almost impossible.
After spending numerous (35+ hours) of tuning, a BIG THANK YOU to LET (Jerry, Wayne and Erick - You are my HEROS) and data logging, we have come to the conclusion that the larger injectors are not the solution to the "lack of fuel" when running a dual pulley combo, or a single 185mm crank pulley for that matter. Furthermore, the larger injectors inhibited the performance of the vehicle in the lower RPM range, where the car was "flooded" with fuel, and resulted in a real quagmire when attempting to tune.
I had the car back in my possession for 1 week exactly (Dec 24-Jan 1) and the car just went back to C3P's headquarters where it will undergo further changes, including the removal of: the larger injectors; and the BDJ plenums.
At this stage, the intent is to make the most power while running the 185mm LET pulley, the stock injectors and plenums, and possibly a little NOS.
Water/meth may be turned on once we have the aforementioned making the right #'s.
Summary: $6,800+ in expenses (and stil counting); 12 weeks of testing (without my car), and more to come.
I will keep everyone posted on results.
Happy New Year everyone!
My car is similarly setup(see signature), and i put down 377whp in about 73 degree weather. We all know dynos and conditions differ, so they are best used as a tool for measuring performance gain on a particular car in similar conditions as you add mods...as you said yourself you did many mods at once so its hard to nail down what caused what. When you dyno try to keep the variables to a minimum. Did you know that fans in front and a bag of ice on the blower will add 20whp! I didnt either but its true.
Now what good is that in real world conditions...not much but my point is make sure to keep variables to a minimum.Moving on, i dont see how a proper tune would cause injectors to flood at lower rpms. My friend with a 750whp honda runs 72lb injectors and still gets 20mpg becuase they are tuned down when not at WOT. I also have a feeling that if you switch back to stock manifolds it might solve your issue....not because the manifolds are bad but i think the added air needs more fuel...hence what i just got through saying above.
Lastly, and you will curse me as you read this. Your only true answer to the culprit is to remove each modification one by one until the problem goes away, then add the other mods back on and make sure the problem doesnt come back. Some mods(like porting) thats not really feasable. I dont even want to tell my story about how i chased a low boost issue for weeks(removing the s/c, pulley, exhaust, doing leakdown, compression, etc)....just to find the problem was the air filter.
Since i still think the problem IS fuel, i am about to order some larger injectors and ill let you know how i fare. It sucks for both of us that the road is not paved and we are at the forefront of modding these cars...but with r&d....and countless $ lost, we will eventually get the issues solved.
Now a few questions if you dont mind:
What was the outside temp when you dynoed?
How were you reading your AFR?
Do you know your max boost on the 185mm pulley and if so how?
Did the car run lean hence why you needed the larger injectors?
If so...when did it run lean, how lean, and what size injectors did you go with?
Last edited by 240M3SRT; 01-02-2009 at 11:48 PM.
01-03-2009, 09:15 PM
#11
Super Moderator
Yours having generated 328 horsepower and 345 lb-ft is not something with which one should disappointed, IMHO.
It must pull a ton.
Appreciate you sharing your results thus far, in spite of how costly and ostensibly underperforming they’ve proven to be for you. If it’s any consolation, several of us have experimented with hardware and software that, frankly, failed to perform on our respective machines as intimated by their vendors. It’ll no doubt be the last time that happens, either. With the LET and C3P principals haven given it an honest go, perhaps 19-22 pounds of boost is indeed the practical limit for our (undersized?) IHI supercharger in its current configuration.
Pleased you’ve chosen to keep it a while longer. Kindly keep us updated with its progress and future results.
It must pull a ton.
Appreciate you sharing your results thus far, in spite of how costly and ostensibly underperforming they’ve proven to be for you. If it’s any consolation, several of us have experimented with hardware and software that, frankly, failed to perform on our respective machines as intimated by their vendors. It’ll no doubt be the last time that happens, either. With the LET and C3P principals haven given it an honest go, perhaps 19-22 pounds of boost is indeed the practical limit for our (undersized?) IHI supercharger in its current configuration.
Pleased you’ve chosen to keep it a while longer. Kindly keep us updated with its progress and future results.
03-23-2009, 07:54 AM
#12
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C32 AMG W203
Did any one check the fuel pressure when your C32 run at 4th gear and over 5500rpm??
I also get the A/F too lean problem on my C32 and guess the fuel pump is the root cause.
The injectors size of C32 are around 450cc/min and it is mean the injectors can work with
420 - 460hp (http://autospeed.com/cms/A_110216/article.html). The injectors look like not
the root cause for lean problem. That is why I guess the fuel pump is the root cause.
Any one can share the experience about fuel pressure?
I also get the A/F too lean problem on my C32 and guess the fuel pump is the root cause.
The injectors size of C32 are around 450cc/min and it is mean the injectors can work with
420 - 460hp (http://autospeed.com/cms/A_110216/article.html). The injectors look like not
the root cause for lean problem. That is why I guess the fuel pump is the root cause.
Any one can share the experience about fuel pressure?
Last edited by hothbl; 03-23-2009 at 08:03 AM.
03-23-2009, 02:43 PM
#13
Sometimes in the quest for more power things like this happen...sorry you spent so much to figure things out but you have to pay to play as its said...go to a simpler plan and work from there. Jake has the 185mm Custom Dyno-Tune and Nos among other things..maybe restart like that and work your way up...though Jerry works wonders there are still combos that just are a major PITA to tune correctly...sometimes less is more IMHO. Glad you chose to stay with her we need modders that dare try different from standard mods and post the goods and bads so others have an idea with way to go. I to some points follow Jakes way but he is still more modded then I. I wish you the best.
but he is still more modded then I. I wish you the best.
03-23-2009, 03:14 PM
#15
MBWorld Fanatic!
03-23-2009, 03:17 PM
#16
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Keesler AFB, Gulfport, MS
Posts: 1,717
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C32 AMG
03-23-2009, 03:29 PM
#17
MBWorld Fanatic!
