I have been away, but not for long - C55 Kleemann S7 rebuild complete
05-24-2010, 05:49 PM
#1
Super Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Troy, IL (near St. Louis, MO)
Posts: 725
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
1 Post
2019 E63s AMG
I have been away, but not for long - C55 Kleemann S7 rebuild complete
Guys,
How is it going. I have been away from the boards for nearly 4 months as the car has been having little issues here and there. Around February of this year I started to experience some strange sounds from the front pulley area of the Kleemann supercharger, figuring the bearing was going out from the previous replacement, I contacted Kleemann, (Cory) directly and let him know the issue.
We both agreed to ship back the supercharger and get it looked at. Essentially the drive gears and various bearings showed extreme stress and discolloration. After consulting with Cory I decided to pay for a complete rebuild of the supercharger, I am talking every moving part replaced (not cheap btw).
Cory replaced everything, pressure tested and shipped back. I get the supercharger installed on the car and roughly 37 miles (on the way to work) @ about 50mph the newly rebuilt supercharger started making some LOUD sounds... 8 seconds later after the first sound, the supercharger blew up... twin screw's slamming into the sides of the supercharger internally, complete cascade fail.
I have the car towed back to the house and contact Kleemann - We go ahead and rip the supercharger back off the car and ship to Kleemann for inspection. After Cory receives it he notices some extreme discoloration on the brand new gears, showing a possible oil starvation issue (oil starvation btw is what was determined from the last supercharger failing, only it did not cascade fail in this fashion).
We go back and forth about oiling and maintenance to ensure all was took into consideration (the car gets its oil changed religiously, with documentation every 2500 miles). The car roughly has 69,000 miles and has 31 documented oil changes, which puts it at less than 2500 miles per change, all with 0W40, so we figure maybe something else is trapping the oil on the engine side of the Banjo bolt that supply's the supercharger. I decide to pay the fee to ship the car to Colorado Springs by Car Carrier from St. Louis, giving Cory direct access to the car. This is the only way I can have it properly inspected and insure its not something I have failed at.
Pictures of internals of my Kleemann twin screw
A good main drive gear
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...r/goodgear.jpg
After failure, 37 miles!
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...rger/gear3.jpg
Hard Plastic gear, shredded
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...rger/gear1.jpg
Twin screws, where they collided
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...ger/blade2.jpg
-- Cory's first analysis --
His second analysis/update
Friday last week
Update today
As you can see... he's been a busy man getting it back in order. Needless to say, when I pick up this weekend it should practically a brand new car, inspected, retuned and rebuilt by Kleemann at the US HQ ...
Guess this would be the time to sell it?
New items:
* Kleemann Autorotor Twin Screw Supercharger - they had ONE left returned from a vendor
* All gaskets
* Belt
* Pulley
* Tensioner
* MAF
* All Vaccum Lines
* All associated Hoses
* Fuel Lines
* All coil packs (from mercedes)
* All Spark Plugs and Wires
* Intercooler relay
* Intercooler Johnson Pump
This ******* is like a new car!
-------
More updates when I get it back! Sorry I have been away guys ... Got to give it to Cory though, very solid updates.
How is it going. I have been away from the boards for nearly 4 months as the car has been having little issues here and there. Around February of this year I started to experience some strange sounds from the front pulley area of the Kleemann supercharger, figuring the bearing was going out from the previous replacement, I contacted Kleemann, (Cory) directly and let him know the issue.
We both agreed to ship back the supercharger and get it looked at. Essentially the drive gears and various bearings showed extreme stress and discolloration. After consulting with Cory I decided to pay for a complete rebuild of the supercharger, I am talking every moving part replaced (not cheap btw).
Cory replaced everything, pressure tested and shipped back. I get the supercharger installed on the car and roughly 37 miles (on the way to work) @ about 50mph the newly rebuilt supercharger started making some LOUD sounds... 8 seconds later after the first sound, the supercharger blew up... twin screw's slamming into the sides of the supercharger internally, complete cascade fail.
I have the car towed back to the house and contact Kleemann - We go ahead and rip the supercharger back off the car and ship to Kleemann for inspection. After Cory receives it he notices some extreme discoloration on the brand new gears, showing a possible oil starvation issue (oil starvation btw is what was determined from the last supercharger failing, only it did not cascade fail in this fashion).
We go back and forth about oiling and maintenance to ensure all was took into consideration (the car gets its oil changed religiously, with documentation every 2500 miles). The car roughly has 69,000 miles and has 31 documented oil changes, which puts it at less than 2500 miles per change, all with 0W40, so we figure maybe something else is trapping the oil on the engine side of the Banjo bolt that supply's the supercharger. I decide to pay the fee to ship the car to Colorado Springs by Car Carrier from St. Louis, giving Cory direct access to the car. This is the only way I can have it properly inspected and insure its not something I have failed at.
Pictures of internals of my Kleemann twin screw
A good main drive gear
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...r/goodgear.jpg
After failure, 37 miles!
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...rger/gear3.jpg
Hard Plastic gear, shredded
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...rger/gear1.jpg
Twin screws, where they collided
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...ger/blade2.jpg
-- Cory's first analysis --
I'm making pretty good progress. Yesterday was spent disassembling the intake manifold and intercooler cores, cleaning them, as there were a lot of metal shavings from the SC rotors stuck to the cores. After I got everything cleaned, I reassembled the manifold, installed new seals, re-sealed, and pressure tested- all is well. Installed the manifold onto the SC, pressure tested, etc.- everything looks great.
So, today the supercharger is on the car. There was quite a bit of sand and grit inside all of the intake ports, so it took some time to clean all of that out. One cylinder did have both intake valves open- I scoped it and didn't see anything in the cylinder, so I think we're good. I'm just bleeding the intercooler now. The intercooler relay was toast, which means the intercooler pump wasn't coming on, so I replaced that- all is well with the intercooler now.
Removed the dipstick tube, and the oil drain line- found a small restriction- removed it, cleaned it, reinstalled it- all is well there. Cleaned both banjo bolts on the oil supply side, as well as the oil line. When I'm ready to start the car (probably tomorrow AM), I'm going to do so without a belt on the car, and the oil supply line disconnected on the SC side to ensure we have good oil flow. I'll let it warm up, turn it off, check both banjo's again. If all is well, it goes on the dyno for some light-load cruising- checking banjo's intermittently to ensure we don't have any blockages.
I found several vacuum lines that had very small cuts in them- the one that concerned me was the signal line for the fuel pressure regulator- not sure if it got cut during the last removal, but I replaced that as well.
I also drained the oil- found a few pieces of the driveline coupler in the pan, and there was quite a bit of really small metal shavings from the supercharger drive gears in the oil. I'm going to run some inexpensive non-synthetic oil through the engine with very short oil-change intervals in an attempt to get as many of the shavings out as possible. Once I'm confident there is nothing circulating in the oil, and we don't have any blockages in the oil supply line, I'll put some road miles on it, drain the oil, and depending on how that looks, either do one more round of cheap-oil, or just go straight to the synthetic if all is well.
Removed the dipstick tube, and the oil drain line- found a small restriction- removed it, cleaned it, reinstalled it- all is well there. Cleaned both banjo bolts on the oil supply side, as well as the oil line. When I'm ready to start the car (probably tomorrow AM), I'm going to do so without a belt on the car, and the oil supply line disconnected on the SC side to ensure we have good oil flow. I'll let it warm up, turn it off, check both banjo's again. If all is well, it goes on the dyno for some light-load cruising- checking banjo's intermittently to ensure we don't have any blockages.
I found several vacuum lines that had very small cuts in them- the one that concerned me was the signal line for the fuel pressure regulator- not sure if it got cut during the last removal, but I replaced that as well.
I also drained the oil- found a few pieces of the driveline coupler in the pan, and there was quite a bit of really small metal shavings from the supercharger drive gears in the oil. I'm going to run some inexpensive non-synthetic oil through the engine with very short oil-change intervals in an attempt to get as many of the shavings out as possible. Once I'm confident there is nothing circulating in the oil, and we don't have any blockages in the oil supply line, I'll put some road miles on it, drain the oil, and depending on how that looks, either do one more round of cheap-oil, or just go straight to the synthetic if all is well.
Car is running. We disconnected the oil supply line on the SC side, and let it pump out about 4 quarts of oil (one at a time, adding one as it pumped it out), to make sure any debris that might be in the oil passages moves through and comes out. Checked the screen in the banjo, and the oil like again- it's looking very good. I let it idle in the shop for about 30 min with my bore scope on the drain line to ensure we had flow through the SC- all looks good. Drained the cheap oil, which looked very good- no debris, changed the oil filter- haven't had a chance to cut it open yet, but it looked pretty clean, so I filled it up with mobil 1 0W40.
We have a few fault codes- one is for the EGR transducer- easy fix- one of the pins in the EGR plug was loose and wasn't contacting the pin on the business end of the sensor, so I corrected that and the fault has gone away. The second fault code we have is a MAF sensor short to ground or open circuit- I tried clearing this code several times, and it comes back immediately after the car is started. I checked signal voltage, which is very low- it's .968 volts at idle- it should be 1.32-1.36 optimally. The resistor we add tested fine, so the car will need a new MAF sensor. This could be why the car is running so rich. I did check fuel pressure, and it's perfect- exactly how I set it when I built the car.
Now that the intercooler pump is working, I think I see a small leak. The impeller housing of these pumps typically get loose over time, and start to leak, so I tightened up the housing fasteners, and I'll re-check it after I put some miles on it- hopefully it stops leaking, otherwise you'll need a new pump as well.
So, I'm going to put a new MAF in the car, then take it out and put some miles on it. Everything sounds and looks very good so car- no strange noises, banjo filter screen is 100% clear, and is running quite nicely from what I can tell. I'll let you know how the initial road test goes once I get the new MAF in the car.
Thanks!
--- another update that day
I forgot to tell you that your belt tensioner was also broken- the stop broke off, and the spring is really weak- replaced that as well. When the stop breaks, the pulley will touch the AC compressor pulley, and the stud that's used to de-tension it touches the crank pulley- it most likely broke when the SC seized. The broken one will be in a box in your trunk. There are some telltale marks on the crank pulley, but luckily, not on the ribs of the pulley, just on the inside edge of it- no need to replace the crank pulley for that. No damage to the AC pulley either.
We have a few fault codes- one is for the EGR transducer- easy fix- one of the pins in the EGR plug was loose and wasn't contacting the pin on the business end of the sensor, so I corrected that and the fault has gone away. The second fault code we have is a MAF sensor short to ground or open circuit- I tried clearing this code several times, and it comes back immediately after the car is started. I checked signal voltage, which is very low- it's .968 volts at idle- it should be 1.32-1.36 optimally. The resistor we add tested fine, so the car will need a new MAF sensor. This could be why the car is running so rich. I did check fuel pressure, and it's perfect- exactly how I set it when I built the car.
Now that the intercooler pump is working, I think I see a small leak. The impeller housing of these pumps typically get loose over time, and start to leak, so I tightened up the housing fasteners, and I'll re-check it after I put some miles on it- hopefully it stops leaking, otherwise you'll need a new pump as well.
So, I'm going to put a new MAF in the car, then take it out and put some miles on it. Everything sounds and looks very good so car- no strange noises, banjo filter screen is 100% clear, and is running quite nicely from what I can tell. I'll let you know how the initial road test goes once I get the new MAF in the car.
Thanks!
--- another update that day
I forgot to tell you that your belt tensioner was also broken- the stop broke off, and the spring is really weak- replaced that as well. When the stop breaks, the pulley will touch the AC compressor pulley, and the stud that's used to de-tension it touches the crank pulley- it most likely broke when the SC seized. The broken one will be in a box in your trunk. There are some telltale marks on the crank pulley, but luckily, not on the ribs of the pulley, just on the inside edge of it- no need to replace the crank pulley for that. No damage to the AC pulley either.
I'm sure you're aware of this, but the sway bar is hitting the bottom of the oil pan which is making a knocking sound. No big deal from what I can tell. Might be a good idea to put a piece of rubber between the pan and the bar, but there doesn't look like there's a whole lot of space. Was that sway bar made for a V6 car or something- kinda seems like it.
The new MAF sensor brought MAF voltages back to where they should be, and no more MAF fault. I also did a "default initialization", which resets all adaptations from fuel to timing to throttle response- a recommended procedure when a MAF is replaced- many a MB technicians have told me doing so will help make the MAF last longer- not sure if there's really any truth to it.
I'm going to let it cool down a little bit, pull the banjo's again just to be extra, super sure there isn't any debris collecting, then take it home tonight (will be parked in my garage). I'll strap it down to the dyno tomorrow and do some power runs to see where we are, check AFR's, etc. The car feels quite good on the road, it's shifting beautifully, and I don't detect any strange noises, etc. that concern me.
The new MAF sensor brought MAF voltages back to where they should be, and no more MAF fault. I also did a "default initialization", which resets all adaptations from fuel to timing to throttle response- a recommended procedure when a MAF is replaced- many a MB technicians have told me doing so will help make the MAF last longer- not sure if there's really any truth to it.
I'm going to let it cool down a little bit, pull the banjo's again just to be extra, super sure there isn't any debris collecting, then take it home tonight (will be parked in my garage). I'll strap it down to the dyno tomorrow and do some power runs to see where we are, check AFR's, etc. The car feels quite good on the road, it's shifting beautifully, and I don't detect any strange noises, etc. that concern me.
Update today
Hey Michael-
Hope you had a good weekend!
Car is on the dyno this AM, and making some very nice power. Best run so far is 448 WHP and 461 WTQ- very strong.
It's a bit rich in the middle- about 10.9:1. I'm in process of sorting that out- I've got the mid RPM leaned out to about 11.5:1, but I'd really like to see it around 11.8-12:1. It's running very nicely on the top at 12-12.3:1- perfect.
Other than that, it's running like a top. I hope to have the A/F sorted out by this afternoon, a few more road miles tomorrow, then it should be good to go- I'll let you know how I make out this afternoon.
Thanks!!
Hope you had a good weekend!
Car is on the dyno this AM, and making some very nice power. Best run so far is 448 WHP and 461 WTQ- very strong.
It's a bit rich in the middle- about 10.9:1. I'm in process of sorting that out- I've got the mid RPM leaned out to about 11.5:1, but I'd really like to see it around 11.8-12:1. It's running very nicely on the top at 12-12.3:1- perfect.
Other than that, it's running like a top. I hope to have the A/F sorted out by this afternoon, a few more road miles tomorrow, then it should be good to go- I'll let you know how I make out this afternoon.
Thanks!!
Guess this would be the time to sell it?
New items:
* Kleemann Autorotor Twin Screw Supercharger - they had ONE left returned from a vendor
* All gaskets
* Belt
* Pulley
* Tensioner
* MAF
* All Vaccum Lines
* All associated Hoses
* Fuel Lines
* All coil packs (from mercedes)
* All Spark Plugs and Wires
* Intercooler relay
* Intercooler Johnson Pump
This ******* is like a new car!
-------
More updates when I get it back! Sorry I have been away guys ... Got to give it to Cory though, very solid updates.
Last edited by alumar; 05-24-2010 at 05:57 PM.
05-24-2010, 08:36 PM
#5
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: AL,IL, GA, CA
Posts: 1,912
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CLS, SLK, ETC
Kleemann..
great cust support and very professional as u can see...
Sounds expensive but i'm sure its well worth it!! Are you still going to sell ur car afterward?
great cust support and very professional as u can see... Sounds expensive but i'm sure its well worth it!! Are you still going to sell ur car afterward?
05-24-2010, 10:30 PM
#7
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,064
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
C55 AMG, 135i, 911 GT3, GLE43 AMG
Wow. Thanks for sharing your story. Was all that went wrong supposed to happen with wear and tear?......or were you just unlucky and had bad things happen?
Trending Topics
05-24-2010, 10:47 PM
#8
Super Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Troy, IL (near St. Louis, MO)
Posts: 725
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
1 Post
2019 E63s AMG
Hard to tell, but I do take the car to events. Ultimately the last 8 months I had been running pretty rich so were thinking the carbon buildup caused a blockage on the bango bolt supplying the supercharger with oil...thus starving it which resulted in a cascade failure.
So replacing everything associated and having it completely looked over to bring it back to near new status after supercharger upgrade.
So replacing everything associated and having it completely looked over to bring it back to near new status after supercharger upgrade.
05-25-2010, 05:11 PM
#9
Super Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Troy, IL (near St. Louis, MO)
Posts: 725
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
1 Post
2019 E63s AMG
After about 35 dyno runs, I've got the AFR's close- attached is the most recent dyno. It's still running a bit rich in the middle, but none of the adaptations have taken place, so I'm going to go get the car to learn it's basic adpatation- the N1/L1 which has a pretty big impact on the AFR's, then I'll re-test. I've seen AFR curves like this before, and they typically lean out a little bit and get a flatter once the N1/L1 is learned. This dyno was, I think the 10th back to back run, so it's a good indicator that the intercooler is working very well- this car has proven to be very consistent on the dyno so far. The lowest run I've seen was 428 and that was a very heat-soaked motor.
Getting very close! I'm very sure I'll have it done by Thur/Fri. at the latest.
Getting very close! I'm very sure I'll have it done by Thur/Fri. at the latest.
05-31-2010, 02:52 AM
#14
MBWorld Fanatic!
Are these issues typical for cars with aftermarket supercharger upgrades or is the C32 having similar issues as it ages? Good to see that Corey is meticulous with his work and keeping you posted with his progress. I wouldn't sell the car now.
05-31-2010, 07:57 AM
#15
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: murfreesboro,tn
Posts: 3,152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2003 porsche 996 turbo
im guessing this is an aftermarket issue. the 3.2 s.c engine doesnt use the engine oil to lubricate the s/c
05-31-2010, 08:46 AM
#16
Super Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 582
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Dodge Challenger Hellcat Widebody, Porsche Cayenne, International Scout
It's always good to see when a vendor/shop actually takes care of its customers and is up-front on everything....
