Ported and Thermal Barrier coated C55 Manifold
Former Vendor of MBWorld
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AMG
Hope that helps.
~AMS~
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From: NY
2014 E350 4Matic
Well I have kleemann tri-y headers + downpipe and the kleemann tune so I don't know if it would benefit much more than a stock motor.
I just think that this would be much more hp/$$ effective than a BBTB which is ridiculous for the amount of money per horsepower.
I just wish you guys were located here near seattle so I would have minimal downtime for shipping and installation!
I just think that this would be much more hp/$$ effective than a BBTB which is ridiculous for the amount of money per horsepower.
I just wish you guys were located here near seattle so I would have minimal downtime for shipping and installation!
Regarding the TB, I bought one from Potomac, pretty cheap and then ship it out to have it bored, let's wait to see if mine will work.
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From: Seattle, WA
C55
I will definitely keep that in mind as it seems to be the most cost effective way to produce more power after the headers. Not to steal the thread but how do you like the evosport UDPs? I normally have steered clear of UDP because of the issues that many cars have with them. The AMS crank pulley i know is just light weight and not under driven so I wouldn't be afraid to install it. One more thing; what kind of rear diffuser do you have on yours?
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From: NY
2014 E350 4Matic
No prob. I transfered the evosport UDP pullies from my C43 to my C55. I have had no issues on either car in over 5 years. The only potential difficulty is replacing the non-OE, shorter drive belt when the time comes -- you will have to tell your dealer or mechanic. Write down the Continental number of the evosport belt when you get it or order two or three extras. Same with my AMS crank pulley. No issues what ever. These mods just make the engine more usable and efficient -- nothing dramatic.
Ohh -- I bought the black plastic rear diffuser sold by Teo on this forum. Fits perfect looks great, just wish it was CF but, that wasn't available when I was buying.
Ohh -- I bought the black plastic rear diffuser sold by Teo on this forum. Fits perfect looks great, just wish it was CF but, that wasn't available when I was buying.
Last edited by Tump43; May 31, 2010 at 12:03 AM.
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2001 E430
So the runners that were shortened were the longer path. I thought those were for low end torque and when the flaps opened the air would bypass the long route and take the shorter path. Does shortening the longer paths really help the top end? I would assume that once the flaps are opened the majority of the air would take that shorter path but I could be way off base here. No doubt smoothing out the rough areas and the ports near where it enters the cylinder heads has to help out (probably gasket matching an inch or so into the heads as well so as not to create a step would help too) and the thermal coatings are a good idea but does the shortening of the runners do more good then harm? I think Speedybenz (could be someone else) took the shortening to the extreme and even grafted in velocity stacks on the runners but I think that mani had the normal innards removed including the flap mechanisms.
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C55
Please keep this thread alive! I'm highly interested in the results and product.
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Former Vendor of MBWorld
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From: Dunellen, NJ
Chrysler Crossfire
So the runners that were shortened were the longer path. I thought those were for low end torque and when the flaps opened the air would bypass the long route and take the shorter path. Does shortening the longer paths really help the top end? I would assume that once the flaps are opened the majority of the air would take that shorter path but I could be way off base here. No doubt smoothing out the rough areas and the ports near where it enters the cylinder heads has to help out (probably gasket matching an inch or so into the heads as well so as not to create a step would help too) and the thermal coatings are a good idea but does the shortening of the runners do more good then harm? I think Speedybenz (could be someone else) took the shortening to the extreme and even grafted in velocity stacks on the runners but I think that mani had the normal innards removed including the flap mechanisms.
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Former Vendor of MBWorld
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AMG
We shorten where the air enters in initially before it has the chance to go long or short runner route. So basically each runner length is shortened. Due to the extremely long runners of the long route, this has no bearing on torque, but does help slightly with the upper RPM breathing. There are far more drastic measures you can take, but they greatly effect the low end.
Sounds good, then torque loss should be minimal (although there still may be some slightly). I agree, going too extreme would not be the wise route.
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From: Republican Wasteland
HPF E46 M3 Turbo, LET C32 AMG
Every car ive ever put a short runner manifold on has lost considerable low end torque (but made up for it up top). Manifold design, shape and runner length and shape are a mind numbingly complicated science....
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AMG
This was explained in a previous post, there are two sets of runners, long and short. The long runners are not touched, the short ones are shorted additionally for better top end response. Pictures were provided as well. All makes sense and should perform as described. Dynos really would be a huge help though.
I wonder if later 55 AMG V8s had these removed get the extra factory claims or if they are still in place on all 55 AMG models (TVT can you confirm?).
I wonder if later 55 AMG V8s had these removed get the extra factory claims or if they are still in place on all 55 AMG models (TVT can you confirm?).
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From: PNW
2001 E430
This was explained in a previous post, there are two sets of runners, long and short. The long runners are not touched, the short ones are shorted additionally for better top end response. Pictures were provided as well. All makes sense and should perform as described. Dynos really would be a huge help though.
No doubt cleaning and smoothing the runners (especially near where they enter the heads) as well as the thermal coatings should show some gains but I'm still not 100% convinced on shortening the runners unless you went totally extreme for top end only like speedybenz did.
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From: Republican Wasteland
HPF E46 M3 Turbo, LET C32 AMG
i wasnt saying that to cast doubt on his idea... just stating from experience. and i do have a little experience with dual path manis (VW R32 and a Vario-Ram 911). Was this mani for someone who planned on raising the rev limiter, by chance?
Sorry if i missed this, i just skimmed through for the cliff notes....
Sorry if i missed this, i just skimmed through for the cliff notes....
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From: Republican Wasteland
HPF E46 M3 Turbo, LET C32 AMG
Runner length is much like camshaft design in regards to its [sometimes drastic] affect on the powerband and the way it is all trade-offs between mutually exclusive properties...I did a ton of research before making a SR mani for an old big turbo 1.8T Audi i used to have...
Either way, it nice to see people doing things to these motors. i just got back into the marque when i bought my C32 today. last time i owned a benz (a clk430) there was basically nothing to speak of in the way of NA mods and no one was really working on much...
Dyno chart would be interesting to see next to a pre mani one to see how the power band changed and where the gain comes in......
Either way, it nice to see people doing things to these motors. i just got back into the marque when i bought my C32 today. last time i owned a benz (a clk430) there was basically nothing to speak of in the way of NA mods and no one was really working on much...
Dyno chart would be interesting to see next to a pre mani one to see how the power band changed and where the gain comes in......
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From: Dunellen, NJ
Chrysler Crossfire
We have a C55 scheduled for before and after dyno, but we just starting adding an addition to our shop and that will have to wait until after we are done.
With a typical ling runner manifold design you are looking at 18-20" tops. MB decides to use some of the longest runners in the industry, even for the AMG cars and the new DOHC engines. The short runner path is still "long" at roughly 14". Usual short runner manifolds are under 8", usually closer to 6". The loss of 2" of runner length really just makes the change over point more noticeable. You will not see a large loss of low RPM power in exchange for a massive amount of HP, the runners are still far too long and the change isn't significant enough.
We've done one manifold in which we removed the entire bottom set of runners and flaps and left just the top induction points. That manifold was a Top End only manifold. The runners were right aroung 8" and once you got the motor over 3K it screamed to red line. For a track motor, this is the way to go!
With a typical ling runner manifold design you are looking at 18-20" tops. MB decides to use some of the longest runners in the industry, even for the AMG cars and the new DOHC engines. The short runner path is still "long" at roughly 14". Usual short runner manifolds are under 8", usually closer to 6". The loss of 2" of runner length really just makes the change over point more noticeable. You will not see a large loss of low RPM power in exchange for a massive amount of HP, the runners are still far too long and the change isn't significant enough.
We've done one manifold in which we removed the entire bottom set of runners and flaps and left just the top induction points. That manifold was a Top End only manifold. The runners were right aroung 8" and once you got the motor over 3K it screamed to red line. For a track motor, this is the way to go!
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From: Sin City
2005 E55 AMG - - 2005 SL55 AMG - - - - - - 2006 SLK55 AMG - - - - - - 2013 Ducati Diavel AMG -
We've done one manifold in which we removed the entire bottom set of runners and flaps and left just the top induction points. That manifold was a Top End only manifold. The runners were right aroung 8" and once you got the motor over 3K it screamed to red line. For a track motor, this is the way to go!
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AMG
If that's the case then a good set of headers should offset any loss in torque. Same is true of the power pulley. But in conjunction with this intake manifold should make for a fantastic power band as the top end was always the M113s Achilles heel.
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From: Dunellen, NJ
Chrysler Crossfire
On the M113K/M112k you can port the intake manifolds and runners and see more power as well and much better throttle response. On a SRT6 we did these with supporting mods and it dynoed 10RWHP less then a stock CLK63!
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From: NY
2014 E350 4Matic
Per TVT and AMS, I run the headers, the UDPs & high flow cats with the TVT intake manifold. I did not notice any decrease in torque. The car's sweet spot, however, did move up the rpm range a bit. On the overall, the first week after its installation tells me that this was a great mod to do. The car is faster on the backroads and has much better acceleration at highway speeds. If you drive like a granny, you will see a 1 to 2 mpg improvement. However, with aggressive driving, you will see a 2 to 3 mpg decrease (simply put, at wot with more air you burn more gas). The ecu is still adjusting to the revised air flow rates/pattern and the car is improving. Can't wait to see what the BBTB will do. TVT any news on the BBTB?
Thread Starter
Former Vendor of MBWorld
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From: Dunellen, NJ
Chrysler Crossfire
Per TVT and AMS, I run the headers, the UDPs & high flow cats with the TVT intake manifold. I did not notice any decrease in torque. The car's sweet spot, however, did move up the rpm range a bit. On the overall, the first week after its installation tells me that this was a great mod to do. The car is faster on the backroads and has much better acceleration at highway speeds. If you drive like a granny, you will see a 1 to 2 mpg improvement. However, with aggressive driving, you will see a 2 to 3 mpg decrease (simply put, at wot with more air you burn more gas). The ecu is still adjusting to the revised air flow rates/pattern and the car is improving. Can't wait to see what the BBTB will do. TVT any news on the BBTB?
Thread Starter
Former Vendor of MBWorld
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From: Dunellen, NJ
Chrysler Crossfire
Thread Starter
Former Vendor of MBWorld
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From: Dunellen, NJ
Chrysler Crossfire
Well finally a little bit of info to share with everybody.
I decided to heat 2 manifolds up and watch the temp decrease over time. I also looked at the temp on the inside of the manifold, as that is what will best mimic air temp.
The coated manifold was baked up to a temp of 265 and the uncoated manifold was 227. I wanted to get them equal, but the size of my oven required one to go on one shelf and the other to sit on a shelf below it. The most important thing is delta.
Coated:
Out of Oven: 265
5 mins of cooling: 160
10 mins of cooling: 135 Air temp 150
15 mins of cooling: 119 Air temp 124
20 mins of cooling: 104.4 Air temp 107
Uncoated:
Out of Oven: 227
5 mins of cooling: 136
10 mins of cooling: 118 Air temp 143
15 mins of cooling: 107 Air temp 121
20 mins of cooling: 96 Air temp 106
It's interesting to note that the coated manifold dispels more heat per minute passed and that it keeps the intake air cooler then the uncoated manifold when compared to surface temp.
Hope everyone finds it as interesting as I do!
I decided to heat 2 manifolds up and watch the temp decrease over time. I also looked at the temp on the inside of the manifold, as that is what will best mimic air temp.
The coated manifold was baked up to a temp of 265 and the uncoated manifold was 227. I wanted to get them equal, but the size of my oven required one to go on one shelf and the other to sit on a shelf below it. The most important thing is delta.
Coated:
Out of Oven: 265
5 mins of cooling: 160
10 mins of cooling: 135 Air temp 150
15 mins of cooling: 119 Air temp 124
20 mins of cooling: 104.4 Air temp 107
Uncoated:
Out of Oven: 227
5 mins of cooling: 136
10 mins of cooling: 118 Air temp 143
15 mins of cooling: 107 Air temp 121
20 mins of cooling: 96 Air temp 106
It's interesting to note that the coated manifold dispels more heat per minute passed and that it keeps the intake air cooler then the uncoated manifold when compared to surface temp.
Hope everyone finds it as interesting as I do!
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From: Texas
C63 507 AMG DA Car #19
Temps
This test must really be done at the same starting temp for both mani's then measure the rate of heat loss per minute under the same ambient conditions (Same outside air, same wind, etc...)
Another way to do this would be to measure the temp of the mani over time with a constant heat source aimed at the bottom of the mani (where your coating is)...... if the coating is repelling heat it'll heat up slower.... I suspect over time they'd both be the same temp... it all get's more complicated with air flowing through it...... you could do that also blow some air through it at the same time.
You've got a few sources of heat here: conduction through the metal to metal of the manifold mounts to the heads, convection through the air inside the manifold (cooling) and outside the manifold (heating), and radiation from below the mani from the engine to the intake mani.
Your coating below the mani is prob aimed at the radiation/convection from the engine to the intake mani bottom.
Phenolic spacers will help with the conductive heat transfer from the heads up to the intake mani.... this is a LARGE source of heat......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_transfer
Coated:
Out of Oven: 265
5 mins of cooling: 160 {105DEG IN 5 MIN OR 21DEG/MIN}
10 mins of cooling: 135 Air temp 150
15 mins of cooling: 119 Air temp 124
20 mins of cooling: 104.4 Air temp 107
Uncoated:
Out of Oven: 227
5 mins of cooling: 136 {91DEG IN 5MIN OR 18.2DEG/MIN}
10 mins of cooling: 118 Air temp 143
15 mins of cooling: 107 Air temp 121
20 mins of cooling: 96 Air temp 106
Another way to do this would be to measure the temp of the mani over time with a constant heat source aimed at the bottom of the mani (where your coating is)...... if the coating is repelling heat it'll heat up slower.... I suspect over time they'd both be the same temp... it all get's more complicated with air flowing through it...... you could do that also blow some air through it at the same time.
You've got a few sources of heat here: conduction through the metal to metal of the manifold mounts to the heads, convection through the air inside the manifold (cooling) and outside the manifold (heating), and radiation from below the mani from the engine to the intake mani.
Your coating below the mani is prob aimed at the radiation/convection from the engine to the intake mani bottom.
Phenolic spacers will help with the conductive heat transfer from the heads up to the intake mani.... this is a LARGE source of heat......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_transfer
Coated:
Out of Oven: 265
5 mins of cooling: 160 {105DEG IN 5 MIN OR 21DEG/MIN}
10 mins of cooling: 135 Air temp 150
15 mins of cooling: 119 Air temp 124
20 mins of cooling: 104.4 Air temp 107
Uncoated:
Out of Oven: 227
5 mins of cooling: 136 {91DEG IN 5MIN OR 18.2DEG/MIN}
10 mins of cooling: 118 Air temp 143
15 mins of cooling: 107 Air temp 121
20 mins of cooling: 96 Air temp 106
