Hi,

Can all the owners who track their c32 please tell me how many days they have done and how they feel their car is doing?


Here is what I have done so far (well since April)

Day 1 - BMW CCA - Lime Rock Park
Day 2 - Evolution AutoX school
Day 3 - Test and Tune Session - New Hampshire International Speedway
Day 4- BMW CCA - Lime Rock Park
Brake Pad Change - Did it myself too - will post a full writeup
Day 5- Test and Tune Session - New Hampshire International Speedway
Day 6 - BMWCCA - New Hampshire International Speedway
Day 7 - COMSCC - New Hampshire International Speedway
Day 8 - BMWCCA - New Hampsire International Speedway

The track days with the BMW and COM clubs are pretty much just standard Driving schools with 4 sessions ranging from 20 - 25 minutes each and lots of rest time in-between.

The Test and Tune sessions are where I am really beating the car up. They are 4 hours long and I do 20 - 30 minutes at a time with about 20 minutes break in between to let the brakes cool down. Also i have to make a run for gas every 3 sessions or so.

Sadly to say my car is not feeling well of late.

The problems that I have noticed are:

1)
My car shakes at high speed and the steering wheel vibrates. I took the front wheels off and on the passenger side I think that my outer tie rod is loose (could be inner too) or it could be a ball bearing I can't tell. Basically when I grab the rotors and try to wiggle it there is a little bit of give.

2)
My brakes just feel out of wack. After my 2nd test and tune my pedal was just soft all the time - I mean really bad. My pad still had some material left so I thought I must have boiled the fluid. I changed the fluid and got some feel back but not that great. I am going to post my musing on the brakes on another thread as it really warrants a bigger discussion.

3)
My transmission has been acting up. Sometimes my car will not shift out of a gear and sometimes it just goes to neutral. This hasn't happened on the track but it did happen to me on an autox. Also happened numerous times on the street especially when I stop at a stoplight and try to go all the car does is rev. The funny thing is that when I turn the car off and turn it back on everything is ok.

4)
Car is now making all kinds of squeaking and groaning noises. This is especially noticeable when I go over bumps. Is this the sway bar bushing that other people have noticed?

5)
Car makes a faint sound like when metal rubs against metal lightly. It is very faint so I can't hear it when I am driving but when the car is on and I go up to the rear driver side wheel I can hear it.


Now the good sadly there is only one.

The engine feels stronger than ever. Sometimes the day after a track day I take it out early in the morning when there is some cool air and I am scared by how powerful it feels


Can all you owners who track your car please post your impressions. I would also appreciate any info on the problems that I am having.

Thanks in advance and hope all of you enjoy this car as much as I have been.

Prasith

#3 happend to me once and never again so far ..and #4 yes it's the bushings most probably

Sorry to hear of your problems. I had my car at the track for double sessions last week and nothing from the MB parts bin went wrong.

1) check your wheel balance and rotors for warpage.
2) How much material is left on the pads? The less material, the faster the pads will transfer heat to the caliper, the faster the fluid boils. In addition, if you are running a street pad, the usefull operating temperature is well below what is necessary at a track event, especially those you are attending that offer more than 100 minutes of track time in one day. Try fresh street pads, or change them out for a race type pad for track use. It will make a huge difference. Or just put your Brembo's on with some dual purpose Pagid Orange and be happy. Try a spacer with your wheels. Run a higher performance fluid with a better wet boiling point.
3) That happened to me once on the street and never again. Turned the car on and off and it cleared the problem.
4) Most likely the sway bar bushings. They are handed so make sure the dealer orders the right part number. Mine broke after 2000 miles.
5) Could be a loose muffler bracket bolt. Or motor related, or transmission, or ring and pinion gear, or better to not think about those things and get it serviced under warranty!

Your increased sense of power is probably the learned behavior of the transmission offering more responsive throttle after a day blasting around at the track.

smg,

so it seems like my c32 is a little more fragile than others.

hopefully these track days will break her in and I can find and replace the weak parts.

Thanks for the reply. Here is some more info.

1) I don't think it has anything to do with wheel balance because I took off the wheel and i am able to wiggle the rotors a little. When I do that I think the give is in the outer tie rod because i see it shaking a little. I have to take it into service and see what those guys think.

2) I just switched to the porterfield r4-e's that you recommended and they have held up pretty well but that was only one track day. I was using the Axxis street/track pads and they were very nice but lasted all of two track days. One long 4 hr one and another normal one. ATE SuperBlue doesn't seem to be holding up all that well. Can you recommend something better but still a good value?

3) The tranny problem is perplexing because it has happened 4 times to me so I am hoping there are error codes.


It surprises me that I have had so many problems with my car.

I am kind of scared to do the mods now as I am sure my dealer will try to point the blame on them.

What do you use for brake fluid? Do you go on any tracks that are especially brake intensive like NHIS? I am sure the canyons must be especially like on a downhill run through piuma. NHIS is only 1.6 miles with 12 turns (14 with the chicane) so there are no good areas to cool the brakes down.


Anybody else care to share their experiences on how their car has held up.

Thanks.

Prasith

All road cars don't hold up well on regular track abuse. I've recently driven a regular trackie's 30k miles Honda S2000. Geezz.. the car felt worse than my old man's 11 year old 180k mile toyota corolla. Everything in the car was loose, under carriage, chassis and drive trains.

This is the reason why all track cars are required to be specially prepared to take abuses. Better cooling systems, reinforced chassis, harder bushings, better braking system etc.

Yup I agree.

The only issue I have had related to the track days I have done with the C32 is the expected brake wear and pad deposits on the rotors. I have only used OEM pads with ATE Super Blue fluid and did not experience brake fade at Summit Point or VIR.

After my first trip to Summit Point, I experienced terminal pad deposits (which result in a grinding noise during braking) and the dealer did a one time warranty replacement of all the components. In hind sight, I think I did not pay enough attention to my cool down laps and staying off of the brakes in the paddock after my session. Since that learning experience, I take my cool down laps very seriously and my brakes have held up much better. However, expect to go through pads and rotors when you track the C32. As smg32 stated, keep your pads and fluids fresh before going to a track day. If you do, excessive fade shouldn't be an issue.

I have had no other issues with my car and it feels as tight and solid as it did they day I bought it despite track days, autocrosses and a few 1/4 mile drag sessions.

I agree that road cars aren't meant to be dedicated track cars but I expect a certain amount of strength and ability to hold up under track or any other severe driving conditions when I buy an AMG as I would when I buy an M car. Maybe I am just wrong in my thinking.

Also I don't see how the track is more intensive than a canyon run can be. I have friends who regularly take their cars out to the canyons - granted they are all m3's or porche's. But still I feel that canyon and autox are more intensive than a track is. Unless you are on the track for an endurance event. AutoX is epecially hard on a car because it is a lot of jerky movements as opposed to a track where you try to be smoother and keep momentum.

Also as far as the brakes I think a part of the problem is that I drive hard and brake hard. I need to have a smoother braking zone and not depend on ABS so much.

I will see how the new Porterfield R4-E hold up. The Axxis pads I had were great and had terrific grip but did not last at all. I would highly recommend them for a high performance street/autoX pad as it had really good cold bite, warmed up pretty fast and didn't fade but it just wore too easily. I just put the Porterfield's on and they felt pretty good but not as grippy as the Axxis.

I have never had a problem with deposits on my rotors. I cool them down properly. However my rotors have lots of tiny cracks

The problem may also be the brake lines. Anybody know where I can get steel braided ones?

Thanks for all the helpful replies.

Prasith

i was going to say, i am surprised teh C32 actually held up really well after the constant track use.. but i think Prasith got the idea from the replies then all the problems he is occuring is normal and very minimal compared to other makes and models

Like 1313 said, your production car is not a racetrack prepared car..

Believe me you're not the only one on here that drives their car hard and brakes hard at the track. You should come to Starfest in August at Mid-Ohio and find out. You may be suprised at how others push their C32's at the track.

Whether a car is race prepped or not, brakes are going to require heavy maintenance if you track a car. Especially if the car is 3600 lbs.

AutoX and tight short courses are much harder on the car than longer road courses which also keep the brakes running cooler since you are not on them as frequently and they have a period to cool between corners with the higher speeds. Your type of track events should not be detrimental to the car.

As Carl mentioned, pad deposits could be one of your problems with the shaking/vibration. You could run a Hawk race pad for a few miles to clean away the deposits and then re-bed the previous pads. If your rotors are showing signs of cracking, replace them now before the fail! The Axxis pads are not made for heavy track/brake use. Their operating temperature is below what is required in your events. They are a much softer compound and will leave heavy deposits on the rotors causing great shaking that feels like a warped rotor. The R4E's are much better in this environment with a higher operating temperature.

It really depends on how you use your brakes. It sounds like you are too heavy and abrupt on the brake pedal, as you mention that you depend on the ABS to assist you in the brake zones. Don't do this. Ease into the brakes without engaging ABS. You can still brake hard, just don't go to the point of ABS. You will increase the life of your pads and overall brake system greatly.

As for the R4E's, I just had them on the BMW for double sessions with the C32 and they performed flawlessly. I am running stock M3 euro rotors with these pads as well as ATE superblue and they never faded or lost feel once at the Streets of Willow. In comparison, the C32 with my BBK running Pagid Orange, Motul RBF600 and stainless lines never faded as well and felt great at the track. This set up offers more brake feel then the BMW and I never got them really hot. In fact, the rears ran cool. But it doesn't brake "better". Until I find that the BMW starts to fade, there is no need to upgrade to a BBK unless I want to save the extra weight and I would then go with the 328x28 fronts, not larger. 355 to 380 is overkill on that car.

As for the fluid, I don't think the ATE is the problem. Just remember to bleed the system prior to the event and change the fluid as frequently as you can afford. Most who run a lot of track days will bleed before and after each day and change fluid after every 3 or 4 events. If you are concerned with the fluid, change to Motul RBF600. It has a higher wet boiling point at twice the cost of ATE. Castrol SRF has the best wet boiling point, but is a waste of money and requires more frequent bleeding and changing. I stopped using it and am back to ATE in the BMW. I prefer the blue as you can detect leaks more easily. As for stainless lines, they will not increase braking distance, only offer more feel. Many stainless lines fail and you are better off with the stock rubber lines. Install that BBK of yours and your problems will be solved!

guys thanks for all the great replies.

I am definitely going to try and make it down to StarFest hopefully I can convince my family to come along too.

Can anybody post a link for more info - I am sure it has been beaten to death but I am a little lazy. After all this is my first vacation in nearly 2 yrs

smg,

what bbk are you running? Fronts only or rears as well.

I need to brake smoother, that is definitely something I have to work on. I am ok in most of the turns but the downhill braking zones I am especially bad on because I am going in too hot.

My rotors have tiny hairline cracks all around the cross drilled holes. I think that they should be ok. What do you think? I inspected them before and after the event and they seemed pretty good otherwise.

So you think ATE is good enough? I try to flush the fluid completely every month or so. I need to buy a pressure bleeder and then I will do it before and after every day.

Why do you vote against the steel lines? Several other people told me that instead of the BBK just put the lines on and use the higher perf. pads. When my rotors go out maybe get some brembo rotors instead of the AMG ones.

I agree with you on the BBK and I really should stop being so cheap and just install the BBK but I am trying to save up money for my real track car.

I think I am finally joining the ranks of the true brakers because my calipers now have a nice shade of gold to it

Prasith

I just counted 24 track days on my C32. Car has 53,000 miles. Front bushings have been changed out once, at about 34,000 miles. Sounds like you have bushing problems, and they may have worn to the point that you have damaged the steel parts of the suspension.
Rotors have been changed twice for excessive cracking out from the cross drilled holes. Never had a warped rotor. I find the stock brake pads are great, but always start with new pads. Frequently I had to change the pads again at the track.
Rotors are yellow from overheating the second time I tracked the car.
Many instructors want you to use the ABS, and it should not be a problem. The biggest problem is to brake long distances before turning in; the shorter you are on the brakes the better, therefore ease on but brake hard. I agree with Carl AMG as to cooling down the brakes, on the last lap after the checker, and before parking the car (in Park of course, with brakes off), and change brake fluid at least every 3 months if you are going to the track often.

Prasith: Mercedes has specs on the cracks eminating from the cross drilled holes. When the spec is exceeded the rotors must be replaced. You will have to be persistent to get the dealer to find the specs. It takes a careful inspection to be sure that none of the cracks are excessive. I had to change rotors at VIR when it was noticed that cracks went out to the edge of the rotor. The rotors should have been changed out long before the cracks were that bad. Porsche has similar specs (they are not the same as the rotors are not the same). Try to get the dealer to give you a copy so that you can refer to it when you inspect the rotors before taking the car to the track.

Prasith, don't take a chance on your rotors. If you don't attend anymore track events, maybe you should be OK running them on the street after having them inspected by the dealer, but if you continue your frequent schedule of track days, just replace and play it safe. The cracks will only get longer until a point at which they fail with disasterous results. Hairline cracks are common place with cross drilled rotors with heavy track use. It usually means that you were not able to shed enough heat from the disk and the thermal overload took it out on the weakest point of the disk, the holes. Given your driving technique as of now, don't run street pads anymore at the track. You are exceeding their limits.

The stock fluid is pretty good for factory fluid and if you are changing the fluid ever month or so, the fluid is probably not your problem. ATE is fine and many club racers use it because it is cost effective and most use a race compound pad with it. Monthly flushes are excessive with your track schedule. Try only bleeding every other time and see if there is a difference.

My car was used as the development vehicle for StopTech's prototype BBK for the W203 chassis. I am running a 355x32 front slotted rotor and a 328x28 rear slotted rotor. I am using the same GenII four piston caliper in both the front and rear. The kit is a marked improvement over the stock brake system. Brake fade is non-existant after repeated and deliberate attempts to induce it. No fade at the track and no fade in the canyons after repeated runs where the stock system fails after the first circut. The feel is very linear with much better pedal feel and shorter pedal travel. ABS engagement is no greater than stock and is easy to stay away from it unlike other BBK's which can overbrake the car or engage ABS prematurely. This kit is not just another BBK that slaps some Big Reds on the car, but rather a well though out and engineered system that works within the parameters of the vehicles braking dynamics. And I will never have cross drilled cracking to deal with! BBK's are overkill for most people and not necessary for brake performance if you are not experiencing overheating and fade issues. Some upgrade only for the weight reduction benefits, while others only for looks.

If the stainless lines don't fail, I would prefer them due to their increase in pedal feel. No one is gaining any noticable time at the track with the switch over to stainless lines only. They are usually in conjunction with a brake upgrade of various levels. Higher temp pads are always a plus at the track, but a negative in cost and reduction to rotor life. Be careful with race pad selection as some materials will eat the paint off your wheels and car!

Dsc32, what steel part of the suspension will be damaged when you talk about worn bushings? Find an instuctor that does not encourage engagement of ABS. You will be suprised how you will make it through the corner faster.

smgc32, dsc32 is talking about the sway end links that wore an oblong hole where it attaches to the strut. The dealership had to replace the strut.

Have you done any testing on the StopTech set compared to stock?

Norm
Bordeau

Thanks Norm for the clairification. That now makes sense regarding the strut mounting tab. We are planning to go to the airfield and do a comparison with another stock C32. The system goal in its design was to achieve consistant repeatablility beyond stock capabilities while not affecting the balance between the front and rear bias and Stoptech has succeeded in doing so.

dsc32,

Thanks for your reply. I have quite a few cracks now on my rotors and I am thinking that its time to do something about them.

Do you have the specs for rotors? Do you mind posting them.

I want to take a look and see how close I am.

My brake system in general is feeling a little beat up right now.

I think the rotors are the reason that I am fading so much.

Can you tell me what is the cost of new MB rotors and replacing them? I want to compare and see if am just better off putting my BBK on.

smg,

your kit sounds awesome. Is it available for sale yet or just as a prototype right now?

I do think that BBK's are overkill for street driving and even autoX. But they do make sense for the track. The stock systems weakness is not stopping power but it just can't shed heat quickly. That is it's biggest weakness in my eyes as I have no quams with how well it can stop.

What are your thoughts on the design of the stock system. It sounds like you researched it rather carefully and I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.

Also have you had your rotors cryo treated on this or any other car? I am considering doing that on my next set and what to hear thoughts. Anybody done this on their rotors? Please pipe in.

Do the stoptech's require 18" wheels as well?


Norm,

Thanks for the info regarding the sway end links. I hope mine is not that bad.

Could you also post what size tires and wheels you are running and if you are running R comps. I have some rubbing issues and wanted to see what you had and what I can do about mine.

Thanks

Prasith

The minimum rotor thickness is etched on the disk itself so take a look and then measure yourself to see if it is within spec.

Call you local parts department. I believe the rotors are 400 for the set? You can install them yourself.

StopTech should be offering the kit by now. Give Jeff a call. They may work on 17's. It all depends on the shape of the wheel. They fit within my black C32 spare using a 20mm spacer.

I actually really like the stock system's pedal feel and stopping power until they go away. I am not big on upgrading for no good reason, as my BMW brakes great with stock brakes. For some of us, the C32's brakes just don't last with repeated hard braking in certain environments. It really depends on the track and the time you are on the track without relief. For the street, the stock brakes are some of the best as long as you don't overcook them.

I have never frozen a rotor before. I don't think it will hurt performance, only your wallet. In theory, I agree with its concept. I don't know if you can do this with cross drilled rotors though? There are thermal coating for headers and exhaust tubing, but I have not gone that route either as there are more gains elsewhere to be had with the same amount of money. But again, they certainly don't hurt.

prasith: I have misplaced the specs for the cracks. Hopefully I will find them. However, they do exist and you might make the dealer aware of it so they can check it out on the next inspection, and you might be able to wrest away a copy.