Improviz

Correct, and that's my point: with its LSD and wider tires the M3 enjoys a traction advantage over the C55/CLK55, and can actually use its higher torque peak to advantage at launch: one can do a 2,000 rpm launch in an M3 without the tires going up in smoke. If you try to launch a C55/CLK55 brake torqued to 2,000 rpm on stock tires, you'll spin horribly and conceivably get axle-damaging wheel hop--not good.

So one is forced to launch much less agressively because there's not as much room to maneuver between idle and max torque, which along with the no LSD (thanks, Mercedes, for ****ing the stateside AMG owners out of this option, btw, while making it available to Euro purchasers! ) and wider tires (again, thanks for nothing, guys!) helps the M's at launch--if the driver in question is very very good and very very consistent, which is very very rare.

AgentQ

I never heard that you could get an LSD on a C55 in Europe. If that's so, why do people buy Kleeman LSD's and try to get group buys for a Quaife? Why can't we just order the MB part? If so, what is the part # and how do I get it?!

Improviz

I've seen several folks make this claim in the forums, and assume they're being honest, although I've never verified it independently (I'm not in Europe, so why bother?? ) Still, the people who said it are longtime members, and I have no reason to doubt their veracity.

Well, simply put: the people who are doing this aren't in Europe! Plus, afaik Mercedes doesn't even offer this part aftermarket in the US (thanks again, guys! ), so that's pretty much the only route people have, outside of any grey-market importers who may be out there...

Can't help you there. If you find one, let us know!

ProjectC55

There is a guy named "HARRIS" on the forums that has all the info you would need on the Euro only AMG LSD.


https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...light=LSD+diff

wmhjr

First of all, anyone talking bad about either of these two cars is an idiot - pure and simple. Geez, people can't seem to compare two great products without calling one of them a piece of crap. Pure BS.

Having driven both (and owned both BMW and MB), I'd say it depends on what you want to do.

1) First of all, I'll take the E46 M3 over the C55 every day if I planned on spending time at the track. Being fortunate enough to have a pretty decent track locally, which has a huge number of track days, I could easily see a decision of the M3. Doesn't mean the C55 isn't great, but rather that "I believe" an SMG equipped M3 will pretty consistently trounce a C55 on a good track. Not a drag strip - a real track. One where you actually have to turn in two directions

2) I honestly don't care a hoot about straight line 1/4 mile performance. If that's what I was looking for, neither of these two cars would be my choice. Maybe if I lived in Nevada or somewhere, but not here. Just not my cup of tea - got over that about 25 years ago.

3) My personal experience has been that maintenance on the BMW has been far less a problem than with the MB. My MB has been far more expensive to maintain, frankly with more problems. That being said, I'll also say again that they are both great vehicles.

4) For everyday driving, the C55 wins every day for me. Though I really (really really really) enjoyed the track days I participated in, I'm still far more impressed about the smooth "non-M" driving.

The easy choice is to have both!

AgentQ

If you really wanted a good track car, then you'd buy a used 911 track-rat, not a brand new $55k sedan.

wmhjr

Some people really like the idea of being able to take your daily driver to the track and enjoy themselves. Not to mention that while I can convince my better half that I should have a nice car, it would be exponentially more difficult to try and justify a track only car.

However, you're again making my point. They are BOTH great vehicles. It amazes me that there is such a confrontational approach here.

There is one point I didn't mention before. If I were buying used, and/or intended to keep the vehicle past about 80k miles, I would absolutely choose the M3 over the C55. Again, having owned both BMWs and MBs, I am far more impressed with BMW durability and maintenance than with MB. The initial S54 issues excluded, those I6 engines are silky smooth and bulletproof. Parts are easier to find, and work easier to do - translated into less expensive.

So here is my question: Why are you so derogatory toward M3s? Did one bite you when you were younger, forever creating a phobia? What's the deal? Most real car enthusiasts have preferences, but are rarely so negative about what are clearly high quality and desirable vehicles.

Trekman

Man PLS. let this stupid thread Go! you guys Are pissing me! WE TOLD YOU GUYS WE DONT GIVE A CRAP ABOUT WHO IS FASTER! both are nice cars! but still different. now lets end this!

ProjectC55

AMEN!!!!

DbleNckel

NO!!! not yet....I wanna see it hit 10,000 "views" :p

AgentQ

Going for 10,000:

The reason my comments about the M3 are negative is simple. People always talk about how great their M3s are. M3's are good competitors in many "genres" of car. It's a good sports car, a good luxury sports sedan, and a good value. What it isn't is the very best in any category. It's just good. When it comes to absolutely nailing the luxury sports sedan, Mercedes did it with the C55. Mecedes knew their target, and they hit it. BMW took a more shotgun approach and made a, okay I'll say it for your sake, "great" car, but it gave up way too much of it's luxury virtues to try to get somewhere near a 911. What ended up happening is that the car is too much like a defocused version of an Evo or an STI. The E46 and E36 M3's are a far cry from the very focused E30 M3 (which is achingly similar to an Evo in both driving and looks). Make no mistakes, BMW is taking some lessons from Mercedes. The 545i is more solid feeling than any other previous BMW. The new 330 is more luxury oriented than the 3 has ever been. And, the new M3 will have a V8. Who knows, my next car might be an E60 M3 if they either fix the manual transmission's vagueness or really nail SMG and make the car a more liveable sedan.

More than likely my next car will not replace my current car, but be a mid 90's 993 track rat.

Side Note: I am a BMW fan. I've owned two. My first really good car was a '99 323i sport that I ordered 8 months ahead of time in 1998 for oct '98 delivery. I wouldn't have even approached the C55 had I not been lured away from a sports car by...
A. My Girlfriend
B. The new 330i

When I looked at the prices of the 330i with SMG/iDrive, premium, sport, etc., I started looking at the more powerful sedans/coupes with a trunk. I drove the E90 330i(twice), CTS-V (twice), S-Type R(three times), M3(seven times), S4 (three times), GTO (once), and the C55 (once). Notice how two of the cars only got one test drive? It's because one was hands down the worst (GTO) and one was hands down the best (C55). Notice how I drove the M3 seven times? It's because I really really wanted to like it. I kept trying to prove to myself that it was as good of a car as my emotions wanted it to be. Unfortunately, every time I drove it, I found something else I didn't like.

If money (and at least one ounce of humility) were not an issue, I would have bought a CLK55 though.

ProjectC55

MB is trying to make their cars handle somewhat better because of BMW.Does that sound right! Like I said ,they are both great cars and your entitled to your opinion.That's a Great freedom that most of us have here in the great old US of A!
I'll say the obvious again and we are comparing the E46 BMW M3 to the AMG C55 W203. Not against the E30 M3,Evo's 3 thru 9 or WRX's , STI's not to mention that each one of the above have their own unique problems. Hands down regardless of what you or anyone thinks or says the BMW M3 is a much better handling sportier car than the C55 with a nice amt of pwr, and power wise the AMG C55 has the all around best powerband,ride and more luxury creature comforts than any BMW E36 or E46 M3.That's where it ends.Summed up,wrapped up,end of story. Whichever one you liked best, bottom line is that you are happy.It does'nt mean that one is necessarily better than the other whatever you want that to mean.The C55 is your hallowed prference.I appreciate both cars for the different things they offer me and they are very different.(W202 C55 and my E36 M3 and 332i) Crux of discussion is about the BMW E46 M3 vs AMG MB C55 W203

AgentQ

Sorry, but "much better handling" is a massive overstatement. I'll give you that it's much harsher and that's about as far as I'll go.

ProjectC55

Brother forget it!!!! You win!!!



To compound your stubborn victory please show me some data that shows the C55 running almost or as well as an E46 or even a E36 BMW M3 on a road course!

AgentQ

No Problem...

Here is a list of Nurburgring track times... Enjoy.

You'll notice the M3 and C55 have identical 8:22 times. They both have a 155mph limiter so the long straight doesn't mean anything at all.

Here's the link so you don't think I'm bs-ing.
link to source

7:06 --- BMW M3 GTR, 24hrs, test session, Jörg Müller (2003)
7:19 --- Radical SR3 Turbo (2003)
7:20* -- Opel Astra DTM V8 Coupe, set-up for 24hrs race (sport auto 2003) *estimated
7:25 --- Alzen Motorsport Porsche 996, 24hrs race, Uwe Alzen
7:28 --- Porsche Carrera GT, Walther Röhrl, Autobild July 2004
7:32.4 -- Porsche Carrera GT, definitive time by Horst Von Saurma
7:32.5 - Gemballa Porsche GTR 600 EVO, Wolfgang Kaufmann (2001)
7:36 --- Porsche Carrera GT, factory test driver Walther Röhrl (2002)
7:40* -- Porsche Carrera GT, *estimated time on cold and partially wet track (2003)
7:40 --- Mercedes Benz McLaren SLR, Klaus Ludwig, Autobild July 2004
7:42 --- Radical 1500 SR3 (2002)
7:43 --- TechArt GT Street (2001)
7:43 --- Porsche 996 911 GT3 RS, factory test driver Walter Rohrl, MOTOR Magazine
7:43.5 - Lamborghini Murcielago (Autocar magazine, 2002)
7:44 --- Pagani Zonda C12S (2003)
7:45 --- Gemballa Porsche GTR 600 (2000)
7:46 --- Porsche 996 GT2
7:46 --- SHK Porsche 993 GT2, 652 PS (1999)
7:47 --- Porsche 996 GT3 RS, 381PS (996) (2004)
7:49 --- Porsche 996 GT3 Cup
7:50 --- BMW E46 M3 CSL (08/2003)
7:50 --- Blitz Supra, 750 PS, Herbert Schürg (1997)
7:50 --- Honda RC30, Helmut Daehne (1993)
7:50 --- Lamborghini Murcielago (06/2002)
7:52 --- Gemballa Porsche 911 Le Mans (1995)
7:52 --- Lamborghini Gallardo E-Gear (12/2003)
7:52 --- Mercedes Benz SLR McLaren (06/2004)
7:54 --- Porsche GT3 (996) (2003)
7:55 --- Caterham R500 Superlight (2002)
7:56 --- Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale (02/2004)
7:56 --- Porsche 996 Turbo
7:56 --- Chevrolet Corvette C6 (tested by Dave Hill)
7:57 --- Lotec Porsche 993 Turbo, 600 PS, racing suspension
7:59 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Performance Chassis) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:02 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Sport PASM setting) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:03 --- Porsche 996 GT3 (1999)
8:04 --- Lamborghini Diablo GT (07/2000)
8:05 --- Ferrari 575M Maranello F1 (12/2002)
8:05 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Normal PASM setting)(Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:06 --- Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG
8:06 --- Caterham 7 Superlight R, Robert Nearn
8:07 --- Ferrari 550 Maranello (06/1998)
8:09 --- Honda NSX-R 3.2 (08/2002)
8:09 --- Ferrari 360 Modena (10/1999)
8:09 --- Lamborghini Diablo SV (no ABS?)
8:10 --- Chrysler Viper GTS, 411PS, UK-Spec, no ABS (10/1997)
8:10 --- Donkervoort D8 180R
8:12 --- Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG (04/2002)
8:12 --- Porsche 993 Turbo (notice, this is the air-cooled turbo)
8:13 --- Lotus Esprit Sport 350, 354 PS (05/1999)
8:13 --- Dodge Viper SRT-10, 506 PS (10/2004)
8:15 --- Ruf 911 CTR 2, 520 PS
8:15*-- Holden GTS (2000), *estimated
8:15 --- Porsche 911 Carrera 2 (997) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:16 --- AC-Schnitzer E36 M3 CLS II, 350 PS (11/1997)
8:17 --- Aston Martin Vanquish (2003)
8:17 --- Porsche 996 C2
8:18 --- BMW Z8, 400 PS (08/2000)
8:18 --- Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Commemorative Edition (09/2003)
8:18 --- Ferrari F355 (06/1997)
8:20 --- Audi RS6 (2002)
8:22 --- BMW E46 M3 (12/2000)
8:22 --- BMW M Coupe, 321 PS (10/1998)
8:22 --- Mercedes-Benz C55 (07/2004)

8:23 --- Aston Martin DB7 GT (2003)
8:23 --- Porsche 996 Carrera 4
8:24 --- Subaru Impreza WRX STi (2004)
8:25 --- Audi RS4 375 HP
8:25 --- Callaway C12
8:25 --- Mitsubishi Carisma GT Evo VI (11/1999)
8:25 --- Mitsubishi Carisma GT Evo VII (11/2002) (Dad, this is the same as your “lancer evolution”)
8:26 --- Mercedes Benz SLK 32 AMG (05/2001)
8:26 --- Nissan 350Z (2003)
8:28 --- BMW M5, 400 PS(also confirmed by Motor Commodore magazine, 2000)
8:28 --- Nissan Skyline GTR, 277 PS
8:28 --- Porsche 993 Carrera 2
8:29 --- Mercedes Benz CLK 55 AMG (05/2000)
8:29 --- Audi S4 4.2 Avant (11/2003)
8:30 --- Maserati Coupé Cambiocorsa (10/2002)
8:31 --- Ferrari F355 GTS, 380 PS
8:32 --- BMW M Roadster, 321 PS (09/1997)
8:32 --- BMW Z4 3.0 SMG (05/2003)
8:32 --- Porsche Boxster S
8:32 --- Volkswagen Golf R32
8:34 --- Acura NSX, 276 PS
8:34 --- BMW Z3 Coupé 3.0i, 231 PS (04/2001)
8:35 --- BMW M3 Coupe, 321 PS
8:35 --- Brabus-Mercedes Benz C V8 Sportcoupé (02/2002)
8:36 --- BMW E36 M3 EVO, 321 PS
8:36 --- Alpina-BMW B3 3.3 Coupé (07/1999)
8:37 --- Maserati 3200GT (2002)
8:37 --- Mercedes Benz C32 AMG (09/2001)
8:37 --- Nissan Skyline GTR V-Spec, 350 PS
8:37 --- Subaru Impreza GT Turbo
8:37 --- Honda NSX 3.0 (07/1991)
8:38 --- Honda NSX 3.2 (08/1997)
8:38 --- Mercedes Benz SL500 (12/2001)
8:38 --- Porsche 996 Carrera, 296 PS
8:38 --- Brabus-Mercedes Benz CLK 5.8 (12/1998)
8:39 --- Honda S2000 (01/2000)
8:39 --- Morgan Aero 8 (04/2003)
8:40 --- Holden GTS, on an in and out lap (2000)
8:40 --- Chevrolet Corvette C5 Targa Automatic (07/1997)
8:41 --- Aston Martin DB7 (1999)
8:41 --- Audi S3, 210 PS (06/1999)
8:42 --- Audi S4, 265 PS (08/1998)
8:42 --- Lotus Exige (11/2000)
8:43 --- Honda Integra Type R (12/2000)
8:44 --- Chevrolet Corvette C5
8:45 --- Chevrolet Corvette, 339 PS, automatic
8:46 --- Porsche 993 Carrera S, 285 PS
8:47 --- Honda Civic Type-R, 200 PS (11/2001)
8:49 --- Jaguar XKR Coupe (07/1998)
8:49 --- Renault Clio Sport V6
8:49 --- Audi TT 1.8T quattro Coupé, 225 PS (11/1998)
8:50* -- Mercedes Benz E55 AMG (2000)
8:51 --- Mercedes Benz C43 AMG (02/1998)
8:52 --- Mercedes Benz CLK 430
8:58 --- Lotus Esprit Turbo SE (07/1991)
9:09 --- Volkswagen Golf V6 4Motion

ProjectC55

I know about this test..And it's not the same driver driving these cars.There were a couple of different drivers involved with this and if I remember right this was all done on different days and different tracks..This is a weak example if you know the history behind this. Show me some consistent data,popular mags for instance or whatever you can where you can prove to me that the cars do similar times and handle pretty much the same by the same driver,same track,same day!

AgentQ

Nice excuse. You show me some proof that the C55 isn't as fast on a road course.

ProjectC55

It's not an Excuse it explains that in the link that you posted!READ IT!!!!!

AgentQ

From the link:All times in bold print were tested by Horst von Saurma, sport auto magazine

Both the C55 and the M3 are in bold. It is the same driver.

ProjectC55

Yes,on different days and different road courses.Lets find a test where they are done by the same driver,same road course,same day! That's all I'm asking!

AgentQ

That's unreasonable. Then you'd say, well, the driver is tired now because he just ran another car right before this one or that one.

ProjectC55

Enuff! Let's post them!

AgentQ

Hey, at least we're not debating 1/4 mile times anymore. How annoying is that?!

ProjectC55

I agree! Now we wanna show each other which one is more road course worthy based on what we feel about the road handling comparisons during aggressive driving. No flaming ,we just wanna compare some data. Jeez You'll die for that C55.LOL!

Improviz

No, different days, same course. Specifically, the Nurburgring in Germany. Auto Motor und Sport uses the same driver, Horst von Saurma, to wring the cars out on two different tracks: Nurburgring, and Hockenheim. The numbers cited here are the results from Nurburgring.

The days were different, but conditions were very similar, close enough for a reasonable comparison at any rate:

C55 AMG M3 E46

Test
Testing Date 7/2004 12/2000
Defects during Test keine. - (keine = none)
Temperature (Air) 16 Degree Celsius 20 Degree Celsius
Temperature (Asphalt) 19 Degree Celsius 16 Degree Celsius
Air Pressure 1021 mbar 976 mbar

Here is the remainder of the test.