Limited Slip Differential for C32/C55 by AMG Manufaktur
01-08-2005, 09:07 PM
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04E55AMG, 05Dodge RAM 1500 Quad Cab, 02Montero Limited
Originally Posted by smgC32
You are in for an expensive suprise if this is what you are after in a LSD.
Just looking for overall better performance but yet still keeping the car stock. These SC 55's should of came with the AMG LSD since they make it for spending $90K. I guess you need to spend close to $190K for it to be included as in the SL65.
Everything about these cars are expensive considering a ECU/Pulley mod will cost you over $5K.
01-09-2005, 04:15 PM
#80
To clarify my statement, your expensive surprise will be disappointment if all you are after is straight line traction. And if you think that a LSD will prevent wheel spin, as you intend to measure it, you are in for a bigger shock. The benefit of a LSD is the ability to transfer power from the spinning unloaded wheel to the loaded wheel. This is most beneficial in corners where the inside wheels gets light and spins more than the opposite side. By shifting a percentage of power to the loaded side, you gain additional traction and power out of the corner. This is probably worth about 1 second in lap time on a 2+mile road course in most cars. On the C32, the more important issue is to keep wheel spin to a minimum and times will fall accordingly.
With the amount of power the C32/C55 generates in the W203 chassis, the open differential is quite useless in a performance or track environment. The AMG 30% locking LDS will provide more traction than the stock unit, but it will just delay the inevitable wheel spin by a small margin. And when you exceed the 30% lock, the transition to inside wheel spin will be more abrupt. Most drivers who post herein have no real concern over excessive wheel spin and most don't drive their cars at the limit in the corners or track their car. For those that do, the AMG unit will give them a little more bite before spin appears again. I believe it is for this reason that Kleemann has manufacturered their LDS to provide a 60% lockup, which offers significantly more power transfer before it allows the wheels to break loose again. 99% of the drivers, of any car, will drive their cars under the 60% threshold. Any higher than 60% is not "streetable". Ever try driving a 100% locking differential?!
It is easier to have the crew push my SouthWest Tour car in the pits than try to drive it in gear a full lock to lock!
Again, no LSD can compete with the Quaife LSD, which offers seamless transition from 0-100-0 percent lockup. I have driven stock BMW stock diffs, 40% locking diffs, and Quaife diffs in the E36 chassis, and the Quaife is far superior and the fastest around the track. Unfortunately, Quaife sees no market for a diff for a Mercedes, and from a business perspective they are wise. All it takes is about six people to make a custom run of Quaife LDS for about $2,500.00. One unit will cost about $5,000.00. And if you want to make thirty units, they only cost $1,100.00 each.
I am curious to know how the AMG unit differs from the Kleemann in design, and how these two units differ from what EvoSport is proposing which may be a good alternative at an attractive price.
With the amount of power the C32/C55 generates in the W203 chassis, the open differential is quite useless in a performance or track environment. The AMG 30% locking LDS will provide more traction than the stock unit, but it will just delay the inevitable wheel spin by a small margin. And when you exceed the 30% lock, the transition to inside wheel spin will be more abrupt. Most drivers who post herein have no real concern over excessive wheel spin and most don't drive their cars at the limit in the corners or track their car. For those that do, the AMG unit will give them a little more bite before spin appears again. I believe it is for this reason that Kleemann has manufacturered their LDS to provide a 60% lockup, which offers significantly more power transfer before it allows the wheels to break loose again. 99% of the drivers, of any car, will drive their cars under the 60% threshold. Any higher than 60% is not "streetable". Ever try driving a 100% locking differential?!
It is easier to have the crew push my SouthWest Tour car in the pits than try to drive it in gear a full lock to lock!Again, no LSD can compete with the Quaife LSD, which offers seamless transition from 0-100-0 percent lockup. I have driven stock BMW stock diffs, 40% locking diffs, and Quaife diffs in the E36 chassis, and the Quaife is far superior and the fastest around the track. Unfortunately, Quaife sees no market for a diff for a Mercedes, and from a business perspective they are wise. All it takes is about six people to make a custom run of Quaife LDS for about $2,500.00. One unit will cost about $5,000.00. And if you want to make thirty units, they only cost $1,100.00 each.
I am curious to know how the AMG unit differs from the Kleemann in design, and how these two units differ from what EvoSport is proposing which may be a good alternative at an attractive price.
01-09-2005, 04:24 PM
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EuroCharged 2012 C63 BS Coupè
Originally Posted by smgC32
To clarify my statement, your expensive surprise will be disappointment if all you are after is straight line traction. And if you think that a LSD will prevent wheel spin, as you intend to measure it, you are in for a bigger shock. The benefit of a LSD is the ability to transfer power from the spinning unloaded wheel to the loaded wheel. This is most beneficial in corners where the inside wheels gets light and spins more than the opposite side. By shifting a percentage of power to the loaded side, you gain additional traction and power out of the corner. This is probably worth about 1 second in lap time on a 2+mile road course in most cars. On the C32, the more important issue is to keep wheel spin to a minimum and times will fall accordingly.
With the amount of power the C32/C55 generates in the W203 chassis, the open differential is quite useless in a performance or track environment. The AMG 30% locking LDS will provide more traction than the stock unit, but it will just delay the inevitable wheel spin by a small margin. And when you exceed the 30% lock, the transition to inside wheel spin will be more abrupt. Most drivers who post herein have no real concern over excessive wheel spin and most don't drive their cars at the limit in the corners or track their car. For those that do, the AMG unit will give them a little more bite before spin appears again. I believe it is for this reason that Kleemann has manufacturered their LDS to provide a 60% lockup, which offers significantly more power transfer before it allows the wheels to break loose again. 99% of the drivers, of any car, will drive their cars under the 60% threshold. Any higher than 60% is not "streetable". Ever try driving a 100% locking differential?! It is easier to have the crew push my SouthWest Tour car in the pits than try to drive it in gear a full lock to lock!
Again, no LSD can compete with the Quaife LSD, which offers seamless transition from 0-100-0 percent lockup. I have driven stock BMW stock diffs, 40% locking diffs, and Quaife diffs in the E36 chassis, and the Quaife is far superior and the fastest around the track. Unfortunately, Quaife sees no market for a diff for a Mercedes, and from a business perspective they are wise. All it takes is about six people to make a custom run of Quaife LDS for about $2,500.00. One unit will cost about $5,000.00. And if you want to make thirty units, they only cost $1,100.00 each.
I am curious to know how the AMG unit differs from the Kleemann in design, and how these two units differ from what EvoSport is proposing which may be a good alternative at an attractive price.
With the amount of power the C32/C55 generates in the W203 chassis, the open differential is quite useless in a performance or track environment. The AMG 30% locking LDS will provide more traction than the stock unit, but it will just delay the inevitable wheel spin by a small margin. And when you exceed the 30% lock, the transition to inside wheel spin will be more abrupt. Most drivers who post herein have no real concern over excessive wheel spin and most don't drive their cars at the limit in the corners or track their car. For those that do, the AMG unit will give them a little more bite before spin appears again. I believe it is for this reason that Kleemann has manufacturered their LDS to provide a 60% lockup, which offers significantly more power transfer before it allows the wheels to break loose again. 99% of the drivers, of any car, will drive their cars under the 60% threshold. Any higher than 60% is not "streetable". Ever try driving a 100% locking differential?!
It is easier to have the crew push my SouthWest Tour car in the pits than try to drive it in gear a full lock to lock!Again, no LSD can compete with the Quaife LSD, which offers seamless transition from 0-100-0 percent lockup. I have driven stock BMW stock diffs, 40% locking diffs, and Quaife diffs in the E36 chassis, and the Quaife is far superior and the fastest around the track. Unfortunately, Quaife sees no market for a diff for a Mercedes, and from a business perspective they are wise. All it takes is about six people to make a custom run of Quaife LDS for about $2,500.00. One unit will cost about $5,000.00. And if you want to make thirty units, they only cost $1,100.00 each.
I am curious to know how the AMG unit differs from the Kleemann in design, and how these two units differ from what EvoSport is proposing which may be a good alternative at an attractive price.
01-09-2005, 06:37 PM
#83
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The AMG diff IS a Salisbury type differential. It differs from a Variloc in that the clutches are splined to the large planetary gear.
We are developing new "cups" with more agressive ramp angles (both accel and decel) to effect higher lock up raito and higher clamping force.
We are developing new "cups" with more agressive ramp angles (both accel and decel) to effect higher lock up raito and higher clamping force.
01-09-2005, 06:48 PM
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04E55AMG, 05Dodge RAM 1500 Quad Cab, 02Montero Limited
Originally Posted by smgC32
To clarify my statement, your expensive surprise will be disappointment if all you are after is straight line traction. And if you think that a LSD will prevent wheel spin, as you intend to measure it, you are in for a bigger shock. The benefit of a LSD is the ability to transfer power from the spinning unloaded wheel to the loaded wheel. This is most beneficial in corners where the inside wheels gets light and spins more than the opposite side. By shifting a percentage of power to the loaded side, you gain additional traction and power out of the corner. This is probably worth about 1 second in lap time on a 2+mile road course in most cars. On the C32, the more important issue is to keep wheel spin to a minimum and times will fall accordingly.
With the amount of power the C32/C55 generates in the W203 chassis, the open differential is quite useless in a performance or track environment. The AMG 30% locking LDS will provide more traction than the stock unit, but it will just delay the inevitable wheel spin by a small margin. And when you exceed the 30% lock, the transition to inside wheel spin will be more abrupt. Most drivers who post herein have no real concern over excessive wheel spin and most don't drive their cars at the limit in the corners or track their car. For those that do, the AMG unit will give them a little more bite before spin appears again. I believe it is for this reason that Kleemann has manufacturered their LDS to provide a 60% lockup, which offers significantly more power transfer before it allows the wheels to break loose again. 99% of the drivers, of any car, will drive their cars under the 60% threshold. Any higher than 60% is not "streetable". Ever try driving a 100% locking differential?! It is easier to have the crew push my SouthWest Tour car in the pits than try to drive it in gear a full lock to lock!
Again, no LSD can compete with the Quaife LSD, which offers seamless transition from 0-100-0 percent lockup. I have driven stock BMW stock diffs, 40% locking diffs, and Quaife diffs in the E36 chassis, and the Quaife is far superior and the fastest around the track. Unfortunately, Quaife sees no market for a diff for a Mercedes, and from a business perspective they are wise. All it takes is about six people to make a custom run of Quaife LDS for about $2,500.00. One unit will cost about $5,000.00. And if you want to make thirty units, they only cost $1,100.00 each.
I am curious to know how the AMG unit differs from the Kleemann in design, and how these two units differ from what EvoSport is proposing which may be a good alternative at an attractive price.
With the amount of power the C32/C55 generates in the W203 chassis, the open differential is quite useless in a performance or track environment. The AMG 30% locking LDS will provide more traction than the stock unit, but it will just delay the inevitable wheel spin by a small margin. And when you exceed the 30% lock, the transition to inside wheel spin will be more abrupt. Most drivers who post herein have no real concern over excessive wheel spin and most don't drive their cars at the limit in the corners or track their car. For those that do, the AMG unit will give them a little more bite before spin appears again. I believe it is for this reason that Kleemann has manufacturered their LDS to provide a 60% lockup, which offers significantly more power transfer before it allows the wheels to break loose again. 99% of the drivers, of any car, will drive their cars under the 60% threshold. Any higher than 60% is not "streetable". Ever try driving a 100% locking differential?!
It is easier to have the crew push my SouthWest Tour car in the pits than try to drive it in gear a full lock to lock!Again, no LSD can compete with the Quaife LSD, which offers seamless transition from 0-100-0 percent lockup. I have driven stock BMW stock diffs, 40% locking diffs, and Quaife diffs in the E36 chassis, and the Quaife is far superior and the fastest around the track. Unfortunately, Quaife sees no market for a diff for a Mercedes, and from a business perspective they are wise. All it takes is about six people to make a custom run of Quaife LDS for about $2,500.00. One unit will cost about $5,000.00. And if you want to make thirty units, they only cost $1,100.00 each.
I am curious to know how the AMG unit differs from the Kleemann in design, and how these two units differ from what EvoSport is proposing which may be a good alternative at an attractive price.
01-09-2005, 11:43 PM
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ML350 '06
Originally Posted by Harris
You dont have to be surprised, I'll tell you why:
1. because post like this when there are a lot of replies, I WILL miss some of the earlier responses
2. because Harris has hundreds of e-mails to read, I do not have time to follow-up on every single threat that I made
3. because it is a pretty simple question, I over-estimated that you dont know the answer. But after I read through the entire post again, I think I know why.
1. because post like this when there are a lot of replies, I WILL miss some of the earlier responses
2. because Harris has hundreds of e-mails to read, I do not have time to follow-up on every single threat that I made
3. because it is a pretty simple question, I over-estimated that you dont know the answer. But after I read through the entire post again, I think I know why.
I wonder why these kind of posts don't simply state the details that many have questions about from the start? Especially pricing? I would think the pricing listed in the thread would cut down on 90% of the questions alone. I don't get why many insist on PM'ing the price list or hold back the details from the thread? I would think it would help filter the serious buyer's when you get a PM or email then. That's just me, or am I missing something?
Not trying to be a smart @SS.Nick
01-10-2005, 10:30 AM
#86
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Originally Posted by BrandonG
The AMG diff IS a Salisbury type differential. It differs from a Variloc in that the clutches are splined to the large planetary gear.
We are developing new "cups" with more agressive ramp angles (both accel and decel) to effect higher lock up raito and higher clamping force.
We are developing new "cups" with more agressive ramp angles (both accel and decel) to effect higher lock up raito and higher clamping force.
01-10-2005, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Zeppelin
The only issue with modifying the AMG LSD is the price. Very few will will pay the price for a stock AMG LSD, now it will have to cost more since you are modifying it. There will be very few takers. I would guess the retail on this thing will be over $4K.
This rear already exists in the SL65 as standard equipment and will surely make its way into other vehicles as the market demands. In this secenario we can offer enhanced performance at a reasonable price.
01-10-2005, 01:24 PM
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ones too fast according to CHP!
In fairness, this thread was about Harris's AMG Diff.
If we are going to discuss alternatives, we should start new threads.
Thanks
brad
If we are going to discuss alternatives, we should start new threads.
Thanks
brad
01-11-2005, 04:49 PM
#91
Originally Posted by smgC32
Agreed. Let's find the original thread on the Quaife. Sorry Harris. The AMG LSD is a fine unit and will appeal to those that want a factory part.
I wonder how sequential lock will be greeted by a Benz owner during high speed corner finding out all too late that its no fun at all unless you know exactly what you are doing given that the famous Benz predictability flies out the window.
These high spec differentials are not something I recommend for average road users or for cars that will be driven by other people such as ones spouse or children. Test drive a Porsche and see for yourself.
01-11-2005, 05:41 PM
#93
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Originally Posted by miroj
I take it none of us have driven a Porcshe Turbo or any other top end animal in that series. The reason I say that is because of the experiences relayed to me by the owners of these street legal racing cars (GT2 and so on).
I wonder how sequential lock will be greeted by a Benz owner during high speed corner finding out all too late that its no fun at all unless you know exactly what you are doing given that the famous Benz predictability flies out the window.
These high spec differentials are not something I recommend for average road users or for cars that will be driven by other people such as ones spouse or children. Test drive a Porsche and see for yourself.
I wonder how sequential lock will be greeted by a Benz owner during high speed corner finding out all too late that its no fun at all unless you know exactly what you are doing given that the famous Benz predictability flies out the window.
These high spec differentials are not something I recommend for average road users or for cars that will be driven by other people such as ones spouse or children. Test drive a Porsche and see for yourself.
01-11-2005, 05:57 PM
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ones too fast according to CHP!
This is totally untrue. The way a differential is built is key in this. A well-built and engineered differential will have different lock ratio's for accel and decel. It will not present a problem.
I have personally driven every iteration of modern Porsche (street and race), and the street cars do not have an issue with this. However, the only real comparisons you can make are with the GT2 and GT3, as the Turbo is all-wheel drive. And the GT3 and GT2 have diff's that are in fact higher initial lock-up then you would want for a long wheelbase sedan, unless specifically desired.
That said, there is no difference to say an M5 with a built diff and a C32/E55 with one. There are no handling maladies that need to be discussed.
I think you have been led to beleive something that is not quite accurate.
Thanks,
Brad
I have personally driven every iteration of modern Porsche (street and race), and the street cars do not have an issue with this. However, the only real comparisons you can make are with the GT2 and GT3, as the Turbo is all-wheel drive. And the GT3 and GT2 have diff's that are in fact higher initial lock-up then you would want for a long wheelbase sedan, unless specifically desired.
That said, there is no difference to say an M5 with a built diff and a C32/E55 with one. There are no handling maladies that need to be discussed.
I think you have been led to beleive something that is not quite accurate.
Thanks,
Brad
Originally Posted by miroj
I take it none of us have driven a Porcshe Turbo or any other top end animal in that series. The reason I say that is because of the experiences relayed to me by the owners of these street legal racing cars (GT2 and so on).
I wonder how sequential lock will be greeted by a Benz owner during high speed corner finding out all too late that its no fun at all unless you know exactly what you are doing given that the famous Benz predictability flies out the window.
These high spec differentials are not something I recommend for average road users or for cars that will be driven by other people such as ones spouse or children. Test drive a Porsche and see for yourself.
I wonder how sequential lock will be greeted by a Benz owner during high speed corner finding out all too late that its no fun at all unless you know exactly what you are doing given that the famous Benz predictability flies out the window.
These high spec differentials are not something I recommend for average road users or for cars that will be driven by other people such as ones spouse or children. Test drive a Porsche and see for yourself.
01-11-2005, 08:43 PM
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Decel ramp angle in the AMG rear is non existent- there is no lock up on decel. Off throttle over steer will be the least of your worries.
Accel ramp is decidedly tame- lock up is only 30 - 35 %. Power over steer will be quickly corrected by ESP, on or off, as you cannot completely disable it. In an MB switching off ESP essentially allows you to do a straight line burn out, once slip angles are generated, the brakes intervene, as a last resort the throttle closes to limit tq.
It is my understanding Porsche PSM can be switched truly OFF.
Accel ramp is decidedly tame- lock up is only 30 - 35 %. Power over steer will be quickly corrected by ESP, on or off, as you cannot completely disable it. In an MB switching off ESP essentially allows you to do a straight line burn out, once slip angles are generated, the brakes intervene, as a last resort the throttle closes to limit tq.
It is my understanding Porsche PSM can be switched truly OFF.
01-11-2005, 08:51 PM
#96
Originally Posted by BrandonG
Decel ramp angle in the AMG rear is non existent- there is no lock up on decel. Off throttle over steer will be the least of your worries.
Accel ramp is decidedly tame- lock up is only 30 - 35 %. Power over steer will be quickly corrected by ESP, on or off, as you cannot completely disable it. In an MB switching off ESP essentially allows you to do a straight line burn out, once slip angles are generated, the brakes intervene, as a last resort the throttle closes to limit tq.
It is my understanding Porsche PSM can be switched truly OFF.
Accel ramp is decidedly tame- lock up is only 30 - 35 %. Power over steer will be quickly corrected by ESP, on or off, as you cannot completely disable it. In an MB switching off ESP essentially allows you to do a straight line burn out, once slip angles are generated, the brakes intervene, as a last resort the throttle closes to limit tq.
It is my understanding Porsche PSM can be switched truly OFF.
01-11-2005, 08:52 PM
#97
Originally Posted by Zeppelin
These are the same people I would not recommend turning off ESP either. If their wife or children turn off the ESP while driving then they get whats coming to them.
Apart from the cost of the chariot, there is a good reason why a lot of performance car owners dont let anyone else drive the car.
01-12-2005, 03:22 AM
#98
MBWorld Fanatic!
Originally Posted by miroj
I take it none of us have driven a Porcshe Turbo or any other top end animal in that series. The reason I say that is because of the experiences relayed to me by the owners of these street legal racing cars (GT2 and so on).
I wonder how sequential lock will be greeted by a Benz owner during high speed corner finding out all too late that its no fun at all unless you know exactly what you are doing given that the famous Benz predictability flies out the window.
These high spec differentials are not something I recommend for average road users or for cars that will be driven by other people such as ones spouse or children. Test drive a Porsche and see for yourself.
I wonder how sequential lock will be greeted by a Benz owner during high speed corner finding out all too late that its no fun at all unless you know exactly what you are doing given that the famous Benz predictability flies out the window.
These high spec differentials are not something I recommend for average road users or for cars that will be driven by other people such as ones spouse or children. Test drive a Porsche and see for yourself.
01-12-2005, 03:25 AM
#99
MBWorld Fanatic!
Originally Posted by miroj
I think you should see a 3 foot coffin with a child in it before you go around thinking how cutting edge funny you are.
Apart from the cost of the chariot, there is a good reason why a lot of performance car owners dont let anyone else drive the car.
Apart from the cost of the chariot, there is a good reason why a lot of performance car owners dont let anyone else drive the car.
Either we are driving different sports cars or one of us does not know how to drive.
I would have to agree with Zepp here... your turn off esp and you are asking for your own trouble. I don't want a car geared towards being a safe vehicle at the cost of pleasure. I think MB does the far to often and this is why BMW has the beat in the area of performance. Funny thing is... the M3 is very simple to drive....hard to get all bent out of shape in an M3 or M5.
Last edited by CynCarvin32; 01-12-2005 at 03:27 AM.
01-12-2005, 03:33 AM
#100
MBWorld Fanatic!
Originally Posted by miroj
If this product gets all of its performance advantage from the existing safety systems then one might ask what the need for it is.
Ever try to take an AMG car to the track? Ever try to go have fun behind the wheel of a car with power... when it has ESP and a less than agressive LSD? It is like trying to cut your lawn with sheers...it might get the job done but there is a far better way to do the job.
All in all the oem and amg set-up does not "cut the cheese".
