Airmatic for C AMG
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C55AMG W203; 330i E90
Airmatic for C AMG
Anypne votes for airmatic ( whatever you call it , automatic suspensions ) for next gen of C AMG ? The SL55 and E55 all have it, the 997S also have similar technology and it is even active like the one on SL55. That makes less pain for C AMG fans to ride on bumpy roads :p
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Originally Posted by cntlaw
Anypne votes for airmatic ( whatever you call it , automatic suspensions ) for next gen of C AMG ? The SL55 and E55 all have it, the 997S also have similar technology and it is even active like the one on SL55. That makes less pain for C AMG fans to ride on bumpy roads :p
Rgds,
Norm
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C55AMG W203; 330i E90
Originally Posted by noka
From what I recall, I don't find the C55 suspension all that much different stiffness-wise, going over bumps, etc, than my E36-M3. It was not as forgiving as regular 3-series. That's a trade-off. You want plush, don't buy AMG with a sportier suspension.
Rgds,
Norm
Rgds,
Norm
But if you have a chance to ride here in HK, you know what I mean.
If cheaper AMG cars offer alternative such as airmatic, I love to have it, provided that I do not have to pay more to go for a 997, SL55 or a E55.
Yesterday, I injected 37psi into the rear tires , and I tell you, the C55 was jumping! :p
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Airmatic suspensions are an aweful idea for the C AMG. The C AMG has consistently been the value leader for AMG, which should continue. Airmatic is expensive. Airmatic is heavy. Airmatic breaks down a lot, but mechanical springs just seem to work, go figure I guess. Airmatic cannot be upgraded easily or relatively inexpensively.
The C AMG has also been AMG's viper or back to basics car, as much as mercedes will ever allow a back to basics car. It is de-technofied from the E and S AMGs. It produces the best track experience and the most direct road feel of any AMG I have driven of the latest iteration (I have driven the CL55, SL55, E55 and my C55). I have also seen videos with substantially competent drivers where the C can hang with the kompressor engines on the road courses because it carries significantly more entry, cornering, and exit speeds than the kompressor cars. The kompressor definitely owns the straights though, and so always maintains a slight lead, but it clearly does not run away from a car with probably 150 hp less and 200 lb-ft of torque less at the crank if you actually slapped these things on the same dyno under the same conditions.
I would like the C to become more aggressive and more purist, and leave the techno sportiness to the E, S, CLS, and SL. I would like to see the SLK continue to follow the same kind of innervation that the C does and the SL to get more SLK like. Less straightline and boulevardier, more nasty.
They are all great cars and all serve their purpose, no insults or offense meant.
The C AMG has also been AMG's viper or back to basics car, as much as mercedes will ever allow a back to basics car. It is de-technofied from the E and S AMGs. It produces the best track experience and the most direct road feel of any AMG I have driven of the latest iteration (I have driven the CL55, SL55, E55 and my C55). I have also seen videos with substantially competent drivers where the C can hang with the kompressor engines on the road courses because it carries significantly more entry, cornering, and exit speeds than the kompressor cars. The kompressor definitely owns the straights though, and so always maintains a slight lead, but it clearly does not run away from a car with probably 150 hp less and 200 lb-ft of torque less at the crank if you actually slapped these things on the same dyno under the same conditions.
I would like the C to become more aggressive and more purist, and leave the techno sportiness to the E, S, CLS, and SL. I would like to see the SLK continue to follow the same kind of innervation that the C does and the SL to get more SLK like. Less straightline and boulevardier, more nasty.
They are all great cars and all serve their purpose, no insults or offense meant.
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C55AMG W203; 330i E90
Originally Posted by rguy
Airmatic suspensions are an aweful idea for the C AMG. The C AMG has consistently been the value leader for AMG, which should continue.
I been hearing 33/37 psi is the right setting; but I prefer 33/35, is this ok?
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33/35 should be okay, but it will increase the tire wear on the rears a bit. You should get slightly better grip off the line, slightly less understeer, and slightly softer ride. Are any of these truly noticeable or measurable? Well, the car handling balance probably would be, but I am not so sure about acceleration times and ride harshness.
If you truly want a softer suspension, replace your springs with ones that are more progressive. They will be softer at first, and just as firm or firmer at the limit. Many MB tuners sell suspensions that are more progressive. Kleemann and RENNtech are two that have been reported to do an unusually good job of softening the daily ride, but increasing at the limit handling.
Springs are cheap, that's the beauty. Keep it metal. Rock on.
If you truly want a softer suspension, replace your springs with ones that are more progressive. They will be softer at first, and just as firm or firmer at the limit. Many MB tuners sell suspensions that are more progressive. Kleemann and RENNtech are two that have been reported to do an unusually good job of softening the daily ride, but increasing at the limit handling.
Springs are cheap, that's the beauty. Keep it metal. Rock on.
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From: NorCal
Originally Posted by rguy
33/35 should be okay, but it will increase the tire wear on the rears a bit. You should get slightly better grip off the line, slightly less understeer, and slightly softer ride. Are any of these truly noticeable or measurable? Well, the car handling balance probably would be, but I am not so sure about acceleration times and ride harshness.
If you truly want a softer suspension, replace your springs with ones that are more progressive. They will be softer at first, and just as firm or firmer at the limit. Many MB tuners sell suspensions that are more progressive. Kleemann and RENNtech are two that have been reported to do an unusually good job of softening the daily ride, but increasing at the limit handling.
Springs are cheap, that's the beauty. Keep it metal. Rock on.
If you truly want a softer suspension, replace your springs with ones that are more progressive. They will be softer at first, and just as firm or firmer at the limit. Many MB tuners sell suspensions that are more progressive. Kleemann and RENNtech are two that have been reported to do an unusually good job of softening the daily ride, but increasing at the limit handling.
Springs are cheap, that's the beauty. Keep it metal. Rock on.
I hope they keep the C55 more purist - but I think that they really need to address weight distritbution in the new car.
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C55AMG W203; 330i E90
Originally Posted by rguy
33/35 should be okay, but it will increase the tire wear on the rears a bit. You should get slightly better grip off the line, slightly less understeer, and slightly softer ride. Are any of these truly noticeable or measurable? Well, the car handling balance probably would be, but I am not so sure about acceleration times and ride harshness.
If you truly want a softer suspension, replace your springs with ones that are more progressive. They will be softer at first, and just as firm or firmer at the limit. Many MB tuners sell suspensions that are more progressive. Kleemann and RENNtech are two that have been reported to do an unusually good job of softening the daily ride, but increasing at the limit handling.
Springs are cheap, that's the beauty. Keep it metal. Rock on.
If you truly want a softer suspension, replace your springs with ones that are more progressive. They will be softer at first, and just as firm or firmer at the limit. Many MB tuners sell suspensions that are more progressive. Kleemann and RENNtech are two that have been reported to do an unusually good job of softening the daily ride, but increasing at the limit handling.
Springs are cheap, that's the beauty. Keep it metal. Rock on.
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Cntlaw,
Car warranties should not be able to be cancelled by mercedes for changing springs. Kleemann is one company that, at least in Germany, has nearly blanket permission to replace parts without warranty problems because they keep Mercedes and AMG informed of everything they are doing. Here in the states, even if a dealer cancels warranty on a non MB part, they generally keep the rest of the warranty intact. Companies like RENNtech replace the warranty for the part and all parts that are affected by the install and use of their product.
However, you live in Hong Kong, and therefore don't follow the rules of the US or MBUSA. I strongly encourage you to double check with the dealer about Hong Kong law when it comes to altering your vehicle.
Car warranties should not be able to be cancelled by mercedes for changing springs. Kleemann is one company that, at least in Germany, has nearly blanket permission to replace parts without warranty problems because they keep Mercedes and AMG informed of everything they are doing. Here in the states, even if a dealer cancels warranty on a non MB part, they generally keep the rest of the warranty intact. Companies like RENNtech replace the warranty for the part and all parts that are affected by the install and use of their product.
However, you live in Hong Kong, and therefore don't follow the rules of the US or MBUSA. I strongly encourage you to double check with the dealer about Hong Kong law when it comes to altering your vehicle.
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Neoprufrock,
I would kill to see progressive dampers on the next C AMG. And yes, weight distribution is a major issue with the car's handling balance. I was a little pissed when I saw the battery in the front of the vehicle. It is like they stopped trying.
The reason being, if you don't even keep the battery in its Mercedes heritage location (the warm, dry, and snuggly trunk) then what else have you given up for the sake of not buying some extra cables or lenghtening connecting parts?
One thing that would be hotter than hot, and would fix a good deal of the distribution problem would be to do a rear transaxle a la corvette and other well weight balanced vehicles. Since the transmission would be weighing down the rear axle, this would have a two pronged effect. (1) get weight off the front axle to reduce understeer. (2) simultaneously load the rear axle enhancing oversteer balance and enhancing jackrabbit quick starts off the line. I know car manufacturer's have to be careful not sell cars that have totally neutral balance because they are worried to be sued, but have me sign a waiver or something.
Lastly, thanks for the support. It is nice to know that people agree and get it too.
I would kill to see progressive dampers on the next C AMG. And yes, weight distribution is a major issue with the car's handling balance. I was a little pissed when I saw the battery in the front of the vehicle. It is like they stopped trying.
The reason being, if you don't even keep the battery in its Mercedes heritage location (the warm, dry, and snuggly trunk) then what else have you given up for the sake of not buying some extra cables or lenghtening connecting parts?
One thing that would be hotter than hot, and would fix a good deal of the distribution problem would be to do a rear transaxle a la corvette and other well weight balanced vehicles. Since the transmission would be weighing down the rear axle, this would have a two pronged effect. (1) get weight off the front axle to reduce understeer. (2) simultaneously load the rear axle enhancing oversteer balance and enhancing jackrabbit quick starts off the line. I know car manufacturer's have to be careful not sell cars that have totally neutral balance because they are worried to be sued, but have me sign a waiver or something.
Lastly, thanks for the support. It is nice to know that people agree and get it too.
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From: NorCal
We think alike on this issue!
I agree that the whole battery thing annoyed me as well.
I really hope that AMG turns around and pursues more of a true enthusiast line - I think they're straying to too much luxury supplemented by a harsh ride and brutal power. While I like brutal power - I think that they can learn a thing or two from the M Division and throw some finesse into their engineering to get a car more tuned toward's performance driving rather than simply brutally fast luxury.
That said, I would love to see a rear transaxle to get the car more neutral. I think that setting a car up for neutrality these days is possible thanks to the traction control mechanisms in place.
I agree that the whole battery thing annoyed me as well.
I really hope that AMG turns around and pursues more of a true enthusiast line - I think they're straying to too much luxury supplemented by a harsh ride and brutal power. While I like brutal power - I think that they can learn a thing or two from the M Division and throw some finesse into their engineering to get a car more tuned toward's performance driving rather than simply brutally fast luxury.
That said, I would love to see a rear transaxle to get the car more neutral. I think that setting a car up for neutrality these days is possible thanks to the traction control mechanisms in place.
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Thanks for the reply..
Paraphrasing AMG's original model: Balance in all things.
I believe, particularly with the kompressor cars, things have gotten out of balance. We are now getting very powerful power plants, and pretty good luxury (probably the best in the factory tuner class), but the weight distribution is way off, which causes most of the moderate understeer balance in the car.
A word of clarification of my position. I don't want AMG cars to be just like M cars. There is a reason I am not driving an M3 (more than one actually, but that is a different conversation). I would like the luxury to stay the same or improve, the ride to stay the same, but I don't want flashy body kits or chromed wheels (standard forged ones would be a big improvement though). I wouldn't mind a six-speed, but I think AMG can hold on to that as part of their heritage and something that makes them different. I wouldn't mind AMG building a clutchless manual with automatic mode that shows the world how it should be done. Lots of attempts, just haven't found one that could be categorized as a success. Or a transmission of the new Audi style where the gear changes are more of a relay baton passing than distinct gear changes.
My point is mercedes and amg have hit it out of the park with the formula as a whole, but there is lots of room for improvement in the handling balance arena. If that would be achieved, then I think AMG could be proud that it had met its mandate and vision.
Paraphrasing AMG's original model: Balance in all things.
I believe, particularly with the kompressor cars, things have gotten out of balance. We are now getting very powerful power plants, and pretty good luxury (probably the best in the factory tuner class), but the weight distribution is way off, which causes most of the moderate understeer balance in the car.
A word of clarification of my position. I don't want AMG cars to be just like M cars. There is a reason I am not driving an M3 (more than one actually, but that is a different conversation). I would like the luxury to stay the same or improve, the ride to stay the same, but I don't want flashy body kits or chromed wheels (standard forged ones would be a big improvement though). I wouldn't mind a six-speed, but I think AMG can hold on to that as part of their heritage and something that makes them different. I wouldn't mind AMG building a clutchless manual with automatic mode that shows the world how it should be done. Lots of attempts, just haven't found one that could be categorized as a success. Or a transmission of the new Audi style where the gear changes are more of a relay baton passing than distinct gear changes.
My point is mercedes and amg have hit it out of the park with the formula as a whole, but there is lots of room for improvement in the handling balance arena. If that would be achieved, then I think AMG could be proud that it had met its mandate and vision.
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Hydraulic suspension on W203s
Originally Posted by cntlaw
Anypne votes for airmatic ( whatever you call it , automatic suspensions ) for next gen of C AMG ? The SL55 and E55 all have it, the 997S also have similar technology and it is even active like the one on SL55. That makes less pain for C AMG fans to ride on bumpy roads :p
Hydraulic suspension is avalialble for W203 C classes. Like on the other chasis, it cost extra and it is an available option. MB's EPC (Electronic Parts Catalog) has all the parts listed.
I talked to Mr Sunman as why he had not done that "mod" on his W203... the answer... wayyyyy too complicated as you have to basically replace everytihng related to suspension... but probably worth if you are willing to pay the price... a super equiped C class will cost just as much as an E class will.
Wiedermann
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Originally Posted by Wiedermann
Mr. cntlaw:
Hydraulic suspension is avalialble for W203 C classes. Like on the other chasis, it cost extra and it is an available option. MB's EPC (Electronic Parts Catalog) has all the parts listed.
I talked to Mr Sunman as why he had not done that "mod" on his W203... the answer... wayyyyy too complicated as you have to basically replace everytihng related to suspension... but probably worth if you are willing to pay the price... a super equiped C class will cost just as much as an E class will.
Wiedermann
Hydraulic suspension is avalialble for W203 C classes. Like on the other chasis, it cost extra and it is an available option. MB's EPC (Electronic Parts Catalog) has all the parts listed.
I talked to Mr Sunman as why he had not done that "mod" on his W203... the answer... wayyyyy too complicated as you have to basically replace everytihng related to suspension... but probably worth if you are willing to pay the price... a super equiped C class will cost just as much as an E class will.
Wiedermann
There is NO W203 with an AirMatic or ABC suspension system. Plain and simple... NONE. I have checked EPC and WIS... does not exist in any way shape or form. No, not even AMG had that feature.
If I am wrong a simple list of part numbrs from EPC could solve the issue.
Last edited by CynCarvin32; Feb 15, 2005 at 02:09 AM.
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I don't know which EPC mario saw but as far as I remember, there are no ABC or Airmatic parts for a 203 and there never were any parts. I have catalogs from 02 and none list parts for airmatic. I don't know anyone who has ever transplanted airmatic in another car. Especially the 203 since it was never meant to have it in the first place, it would mean that you would have to use another car's suspension components which I highly doubt would fit. WIS does not list ANY documents for ABC or Airmatic on a 203 and NEVER did.
Last edited by SUNILP; Feb 15, 2005 at 09:14 AM.
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Mercedes Benz
Originally Posted by Wiedermann
I don't recall Airmatic beeing an option, however a hydraulic self leveling suspension was available.
Cheers
Wiedermann
Cheers
Wiedermann
A self-leveling rear axle I think is an option in the European market but that is not very difficult to install. It is just a matter of a ride level sensor and a set of adjustable height shocks. People have fitted this option to W124 and W210 cars after factory production so I do not see why it would require "replacing basically everything related to the suspension."
This feature would not improve driving dynamics unless you had a stack of sand bags in your trunk.
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Hydraulics
Originally Posted by CynCarvin32
MBworld.org Ambassador Wiedermann,
A self-leveling rear axle I think is an option in the European market but that is not very difficult to install. It is just a matter of a ride level sensor and a set of adjustable height shocks. People have fitted this option to W124 and W210 cars after factory production so I do not see why it would require "replacing basically everything related to the suspension."
This feature would not improve driving dynamics unless you had a stack of sand bags in your trunk.
A self-leveling rear axle I think is an option in the European market but that is not very difficult to install. It is just a matter of a ride level sensor and a set of adjustable height shocks. People have fitted this option to W124 and W210 cars after factory production so I do not see why it would require "replacing basically everything related to the suspension."
This feature would not improve driving dynamics unless you had a stack of sand bags in your trunk.
My original post indicated of a Hydraulic suspenssion option available, not Airmatic.
Originally Posted by Wiedermann
Hydraulic suspension on W203s
Mr. cntlaw:
Hydraulic suspension is avalialble for W203 C classes. Like on the other chasis, it cost extra and it is an available option. MB's EPC (Electronic Parts Catalog) has all the parts listed.
I talked to Mr Sunman as why he had not done that "mod" on his W203... the answer... wayyyyy too complicated as you have to basically replace everytihng related to suspension... but probably worth if you are willing to pay the price... a super equiped C class will cost just as much as an E class will.
Wiedermann
Originally Posted by cntlaw
Anypne votes for airmatic ( whatever you call it , automatic suspensions ) for next gen of C AMG ? The SL55 and E55 all have it, the 997S also have similar technology and it is even active like the one on SL55. That makes less pain for C AMG fans to ride on bumpy roads :p
Hydraulic suspension is avalialble for W203 C classes. Like on the other chasis, it cost extra and it is an available option. MB's EPC (Electronic Parts Catalog) has all the parts listed.
I talked to Mr Sunman as why he had not done that "mod" on his W203... the answer... wayyyyy too complicated as you have to basically replace everytihng related to suspension... but probably worth if you are willing to pay the price... a super equiped C class will cost just as much as an E class will.
Wiedermann
Wiedermann
Last edited by Wiedermann; Feb 15, 2005 at 12:32 PM. Reason: Correction
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W203 Self leveling suspension
Originally Posted by sunman
i don't even see the self levelling suspension option for the 203? Where did you guys see this. EPC does not have anything??
Cheers
Wiedermann
Last edited by Wiedermann; Feb 15, 2005 at 09:53 PM. Reason: Comment correction
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C55AMG W203; 330i E90
Originally Posted by Wiedermann
Mr. cntlaw:
Hydraulic suspension is avalialble for W203 C classes. Like on the other chasis, it cost extra and it is an available option. MB's EPC (Electronic Parts Catalog) has all the parts listed.
I talked to Mr Sunman as why he had not done that "mod" on his W203... the answer... wayyyyy too complicated as you have to basically replace everytihng related to suspension... but probably worth if you are willing to pay the price... a super equiped C class will cost just as much as an E class will.
Wiedermann
Hydraulic suspension is avalialble for W203 C classes. Like on the other chasis, it cost extra and it is an available option. MB's EPC (Electronic Parts Catalog) has all the parts listed.
I talked to Mr Sunman as why he had not done that "mod" on his W203... the answer... wayyyyy too complicated as you have to basically replace everytihng related to suspension... but probably worth if you are willing to pay the price... a super equiped C class will cost just as much as an E class will.
Wiedermann
I like the idea of a super luxury C ;
consider we pay a fortune for a new car here,
if luxury mods can make me keep the car for 5 yrs+ , it is worth the investment. However, I would like to know if someone has done that?
Thanks for the info.
cnt
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W203 Projects
Originally Posted by cntlaw
Herr Wiedermann
I like the idea of a super luxury C ;
consider we pay a fortune for a new car here,
if luxury mods can make me keep the car for 5 yrs+ , it is worth the investment. However, I would like to know if someone has done that?
Thanks for the info.
cnt
I like the idea of a super luxury C ;
consider we pay a fortune for a new car here,
if luxury mods can make me keep the car for 5 yrs+ , it is worth the investment. However, I would like to know if someone has done that?
Thanks for the info.
cnt
I have seen W203 both sedan (limousine as called in Europe) and wagons (estate as called in Europe) with that option installed at the dealer, actually both cars I saw had cloth seats and Parktronic
. I think other forum members may have experience on this retrofit or know someone who has done it after they took delivery of their vehicle.Cheers!
Wiedermann
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I don't believe there is a single 203 with self levelling rear suspension in the USA. I have plenty of luxury items in my car and this is the main reason i will keep it forever. www.mercdocs.com
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EPC shows no self-leveling rear axle. Not even for wagon versions.
So this bs of a hydraulic suspension was exactly that.... bs...
So where is that crack pipe... we need to confiscate that thing.
So this bs of a hydraulic suspension was exactly that.... bs...
So where is that crack pipe... we need to confiscate that thing.
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W203 Self leveling suspension
Originally Posted by CynCarvin32
EPC shows no self-leveling rear axle. Not even for wagon versions.
So this bs of a hydraulic suspension was exactly that.... bs...
So where is that crack pipe... we need to confiscate that thing.
So this bs of a hydraulic suspension was exactly that.... bs...
So where is that crack pipe... we need to confiscate that thing.
When I get the information I will be happy to post it on the board for everyone to see.
Wiedermann
Last edited by Wiedermann; Feb 15, 2005 at 09:52 PM. Reason: Comment correction
