jayrasheed

Well, been using the Mobil 1 0W40, ZDDP@1100-1200 and its a gr8 oil, especially for the first 3000km of its life. On this oil i have no lifter sound on start up and oil consumption is all with in specs.
The issue i have is kinda strange thou, when i drive my M104 hard for a few min back to back (my vids show you what i mean by hard) the engine develops sever lifter knock sound when i ease off and drive at lower rpms.
This only lasts for a few min until the oil cools down a bit.

I tried using the Mobil1 15W50 gold cap, this oil has better characteristics for heat resistance and it happens to have the highest ZDDP at 1300ppm. on this oil i get slight lifter noise on cold starts and seems to hold off that lifter noise on hard runs for a few min more than the 0w40.

Now i am using the Castrol edge Sport 10W60, zddp@1100-1200 i think, this oil i can only get from the BMW stealer at 17USD/1L as it is the oil used for the V8M3 and V10 M5/M6.
With this oil i have no lifter noise after extreme hard runs, and only slight lifter noise on cold starts. The issue with this oil thou is that if i drive slow for a few min or get stuck in traffic before i had the chance to truly run the engine hard, i get high lifter noise that will only go away after a few full rev runs thru the gears. I also think the cams sound louder in general unless the engine been running real hard like in my uphill vids. (I am not too keen on using this oil again, but i might have to if i want to keep gunning my M104)

Any way, your input on this is really needed guys. BTW today i installed an oil temp gauge to get a better idea of oil temps on my runs, u never know it might shed better light on the issue.

Data spec PDFs of the oils are attached for those who can make scene out of it.

speedybenz

It is too thick. You will get lots more cold start wear and even risk sticking a piston unless the oil is fully up to temp. Stay with the 40wt or a good 0-30 or 5-30

Jeff

jayrasheed

It can't be that bad man, after all the highly strung M powe engines use it for a reason. i know its thick, even at 100C' its still thicker than the mobil 15W50.
but i agree with u , its not to be used on short stop and go trips. :S

speedybenz

I don't think it is all that bad, but you are losing probably 5 to 8 Hp and again the ability for it to pump through the engine is not going to be as good. To run that thickness you would need large bearing clearances. You will most likely by-pass the oil filter for extended periods of time until the stuff gets hot enough to move around well.

I could not see running an oil that thick unless I just did not have any oil pressure anymore and was afraid up welding my crank to a bearing. But with a hard run on a cold morning you would be more liekly to do it with that oil than one thats thinner.

Jeff

MarcusF

This is a snippet from an oil webpage I put up several years ago:

Lubrication is dependant on flow. Viscosity, as it's measured in motor oil, is a measure of a fluid's resistance to flow, or it's "thickness". That "thickness" is quantified in centiStokes (cSt), which was named after Stokes Law for Friction. Motor oil thickness is temperature dependant. The normal operating temperature for motor oil is 100°C. So, that brings us to the logical question - what's the optimum thickness for motor oil at it's normal operating temperature?

The goal for a street car is to get the oil up to operating temps (and thinned down to the correct thickness) as quickly as possible. You know that Mobil1 0-40 is 14 cSt at 100°C because Mobil gives you the spec. If I read the spec sheet properly, Castrol says their 10-60 is 23.5 cSt at 100°C (over 50% thicker). Looking at the cold spec, at 40°C Mobil is 78.3 cSt, while Castrol is 174 cSt. When an engine is built, exacting clearance specs are used. The clearances are based on assumed oil flow rates. AMG bearing specs are based on the oil they recommend. Like Jeff said, bearing wear is accelerated when the flow rates are reduced. With an oil that is over 50% thicker, the flow rate has to be reduced. That could result in a spun main or rod bearing.

jayrasheed

Point taken, ill be changing oil today.
Quick question thou; can 2 synth oils be mixed? say mobil 0W40 & mobil 15W50?
Even more extreme is: Mobil 0W40 and castrol 10W60?

just a question.

jayrasheed

Oil changed back to Mobil1 0W40 with a new filter.
Here are a few pics of the oil temp gauge.

MarcusF

The next time the lifter(s) start making noise, let us know the oil temperature.

jayrasheed

Sure thing, that was the point form the oil temp gauge all along.
Ill know by today after noon when i hit my favorite uphill stretch after work.
Cant wait :P.

jayrasheed

ok so after work i took the loooong way home and hit my favorite uphill and i drove at 9/10th what i did in my vid of the full run up....
Any way oil temp reached a max of 85C'c so it wasn't as bad as i thought it would be, but i also wasn't able to induce the lifter knock after such runs! Maybe the fact that oil is only 49km old and that outside temp was a low 12C' were the reason the cam lifters stayed silent.

Well atleast i know oil temps are in check.
Now im considering fitting another sensor to the gearbox and use a relay to switch the gauge reading from the engine to the gearbox by the flick of a switch.

I was shocked thou as to how long it takes the oil to heat up to over 60C'! i have a 19km drive to work and the oil didn't reach 60C' until i was well over half the distance to work.

BenzMaster19

Interesting..... Are you letting the engine warm up before driving off? or just getting in and driving off on a cold engine? I ask because, warming it up first should help bring the oil temp up quicker, as appose to cold starting and driving off immediately...

MarcusF

Back in my air cooled P-car days, good oil operating temperature was from 180°F (82°C) to 220°F (105°C). The standard saying was 230°F (110°C) is warm, 240°F (115°C) is hot, and 250°F (121°C) is too damn hot.

Does the AMG oil cooler have a thermostat controlled bypass?

steve s

slightly ot, but i seem to remember germans have a different philosophy on that than the japs. german prefer to drive off immediately with light to moderate throttle to warm up engine. japs prefer medium rpm at standstill to warm up.

jayrasheed

No I give the engine some 30 seconds for the oil to properly turn and then drive off slow and on low RPMs until engine temp is close to 80C'

Very true, and as long as one respects the fact of not revving a cold engine nothing will ever go wrong. My M103 300 had 400000km on it when i rebuild the engine and bar the broken piston ring the engine showed no signs of wear at all.

This morning outside temps were seriously low and the oil temps only reached 55C' as i was parking. so i thought to my self; there must be something off.
I mean how is it possible that after 19km of driving and the oil is only at 55C'!!!
So i turned off the engine and took out the oildip stick and touched the oil, well it was barely warm, so the oil temp gauge is reading true!

If the regular M104 has a thermostat controlled bypass, the AMG will have it, but who knows? whould you plz shed some light on how that would work? i mean is the valve for the water or oil?

If you think the oil temps i am seeing are off. plz share with me. I installed my oil temp sensor in the oil sump screw, I threaded the screw so I can screw the oil temp sensor into it, and I cut off the end of the oil sump screw so that the oil reaches the sensor. The sensor clears the sides of the oil plug by abt 1mm on all sides, so I know its surrounded by oil. i believe it should be a correct way of installing the sensor.
Also do you know if the M104 in the W202 has an oil pressure sensor / warning?

MarcusF

How an oil thermostat works and why
Air cooled 911’s are really oil cooled. They have an oil tank in the engine compartment (rear of the car) and an oil cooler in the front of the car. Connecting the two are oil lines (about twice as long as the car). They also have an oil thermostat. The oil thermostat bypasses the trip to the oil cooler when the oil is cold. It’s the same basic principal as the water thermostat.

Oil temperature sensor position
I think your oil sensor is giving you the correct temperatures for the oil in the sump. There are a couple of debates about the proper location for an oil temperature sensor. The oil route is typically, sump to the pump, to the cooler, to the various hot engine parts. Some put the temperature sensor right before the oil cooler, because they want to know the oil’s maximum temperature. Some put it right after the cooler because they want to know the temperature of the oil as it’s entering the engine. In both of those cases, it’s common to tap the oil line to add the sensor.

Pressure sensor
I would be shocked if it didn’t but I can’t seem to find the part number.

jayrasheed

thanx Marcus,

I know how the oil thermo bypass works, but i thought u had specifics abt the water/oil cooler setup of the M104, and its hard to tap into the oil lines as they are all in the block of the M104, no lines to the oil cooler since its integrated into the filter housing. In the W124 M104 cars the oil pressure sensor fits on the back side of the oil filter / cooler housing.
I havent looked for it in the W202 due to cold weather / tight engine bay :S. but i wasn't able to find any warning light for the oil presssure, so it got me thinking!!

jayrasheed

Ok so this might be an over kill, but to be honest they look nice. i just installed anothe temp gauge for the gearbox. The sensor turned out to be an exact fit in place of the auto's sump plug, that made things very easy. Secondly the AUTOGAUGE can cross feed power to each other with a special jumper cable so no re-wiring was needed. and finally i could easily wire the the sensor cable to the gearbox.... thru the tunnel and thru the AC water passage, i used the one on the passenger side.

the one showing 95C' is the gearbox one.

The amazing thing is that merc really puts effort into where we cant see it. the engine and gearbox reach very close temps in abt exact time. and they heat up and cool down in same close range.

96AMG

I do drive the AMG for fun over show off, if my commute were like yours I'd make sure, oil is hot enough (oil pan heater, extended warm up, etc)

Unofficially Porsche "guarantee" 300k miles with proper oil temp, and they know a lot about it in my humble view

I was in disbelief when i first got the car, MB records showed 20w 50 from new...didn.t worry much n kept the "tradition", after all mine is a florida car later on I bumped to another forum member from Canada and he also mention 20w 50 in his MB dealer records..so I'm sold on 20-50 oil for this particular (peculiar?) engine

For this car I rather thick n hot over thin-fast-cold-flow

BenzMaster19

That's why you get 0W-40,, which is Thin AND Thick.

LawRens

Isn't that what they recommend to begin with? Mobil1 0w-40?

BenzMaster19

YuuP!

RANDY_P

Actually, M1 is used in 98 and up since it can go longer intervals between changes. Pre 98 Benz has oil requirements of API classification of SJ/SM since we have a fixed oil change interval- these cars were built in the days before extended oil changes became commonplace.

*(Post 98 has that variable service monitor that actually tracks fuel consumption instead of mileage)

I just got my car with 10/30 Kendall synthetic and next oil change I'm going to 15/40 Shell Rotella Triple. Has slightly more ZDDP (anti wear additive) than M1 does, and costs about 1/2 as much.

I don't mind M1, but frankly I don't feel like dealing with potential leaks and I change every 5k so non synthetic will work. I use this stuff in my other cars and no issues.

DRBC43AMG

I have used for years a local oil called Motorex with following specs:
FS-X 10W/60


Fully synthetic engine oil for passenger cars with a high-performance formula to provide a lubricating film that is extremely stable when subject to pressure. Especially formulated and tested for sports petrol and diesel engines. Meets the very stringent requirements of BMW, PORSCHE and Alfa Romeo.

Specification:

ACEA A3/B4, API SM/ CF, Safety & Performance: MB Approval 229.3 VW 502 00/ 505 00, PORSCHE A40

Never had a problem even with engines over 300'000km on the clock.
During my racing years with Porsche 964RS and 968CS used Castrol RS 10W /60. No problems either despite VERY hot running conditions. Now with my C43, after reading a lot of posts I'm having doubts on changing from Mobil1 0W /40
Just my 2ct worth.

RANDY_P

On a C43 M1 is perfect- viscosity range is right, it's long life approved and it's on the list of approved oils. Around here M1 is easy to find.

1998 and up MB has a very specific list of what you are supposed to use due to the variable service and economy requirement (longer oil change intervals)

I used to have a 911 (81 SC) and I ran 20/50 Kendall exclusively and all of the aircooled guys run away from M1- we all used dino oil since it's easier on the seals- they all leak like sieves on synthetic and on teardown it's questionable if the stuff is really of any benefit.

rjp

edemac8

Jay, yours isnt stick is it??? Your shifts are MUVH smoother than mine (5 speed auto...)