Warranty-friendly performance mods?
#1
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Warranty-friendly performance mods?
Hey all, I LOVE my c43 coupe... but at times I wish I could give it a bit of a boost in power. Are there any performance mods out there that WONT affect the warranty?
#2
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Okay, I will try to answer this properly as this question is asked way too often and I do realize there is not one answer for it. Here is what I know about it:
Any of the full tunes will 100 percent void your warranty if you need any big repairs or if mercedes just randomly decides to dive into it, going through the warranty voiding experience myself, I know exactly how mercedes finds it. I will do a write up soon on it. First thing they will check if the seal is broken during tuning, which no tuner currently is capable of doing without breaking it, meaning most of the time they do not even need to go further than that.
Coming to piggyback's, you will always get away with medium sized repairs, like sensor and wiring harness issues but again for any big part damage like transmission and turbo, don't expect Mercedes to honor it ***** nilly, not because they can't but because they want to know what caused the failure for future R&D. Also remember, there are multiple modules in the car that logs peak values recorded which can be be later read. So for example, you blow the turbo, then if you take it to mercedes, they will look into the logs and see the logged pressure values. But what a lot of tuners will tell you is that the piggy back unit is fooling the ECU to think everything is hunky dory, keeping everything within safe parameters while it does it, so it should appear normal. Actually that is not the case, the piggyback is fooling the ECU into requesting more boost, but what is not considered is that there are 2 pages full of other parameters that the car recorded as well. Mercedes can correlate and analyze the additional requested boost to the other parameters in that given moment and would know right away that the requested boost is too high in a given condition. This can also happen because of a faulty O2 sensor for example, but Mercedes can simply test that 02 sensor to verify its readings and if that is line, then they know right away you have a piggyback.
You can always go for piggy back tuners that does provide warranty like Dinan who will 100 percent honor the claim if it is because of the tune, but that still does not save you from flagging your car if you go in for a big item repair as Dinan pays for the repair to be done at a Mercedes dealer.
The one and only way to keep your warranty and still tune the car is this: get a second brand new ECU. This is not easy as the new Mercedes ECUs are considered a TRP (Theft Related Parts), so you would need a dealer's authorization for ordering it. You cannot use second hand used ECUs from junk yards either for the w205 platform because they still do not have virgin files for our ECUs. So the only option is to have a local third party shop that is in very good terms with the Mercedes Parts department order a brand new ECU for you. Then you need a local third party shop that can do online SCN coding, a few are available in US and Canada, not everyone has access to it. Once that is done, you have two ECU linked to your car with identical files. Keep the original one safe and tune the other one. If something breaks, put the old one back in and go in for the repair, to my knowledge not even the engineers in amg headquarter have any means of proving otherwise.
Any of the full tunes will 100 percent void your warranty if you need any big repairs or if mercedes just randomly decides to dive into it, going through the warranty voiding experience myself, I know exactly how mercedes finds it. I will do a write up soon on it. First thing they will check if the seal is broken during tuning, which no tuner currently is capable of doing without breaking it, meaning most of the time they do not even need to go further than that.
Coming to piggyback's, you will always get away with medium sized repairs, like sensor and wiring harness issues but again for any big part damage like transmission and turbo, don't expect Mercedes to honor it ***** nilly, not because they can't but because they want to know what caused the failure for future R&D. Also remember, there are multiple modules in the car that logs peak values recorded which can be be later read. So for example, you blow the turbo, then if you take it to mercedes, they will look into the logs and see the logged pressure values. But what a lot of tuners will tell you is that the piggy back unit is fooling the ECU to think everything is hunky dory, keeping everything within safe parameters while it does it, so it should appear normal. Actually that is not the case, the piggyback is fooling the ECU into requesting more boost, but what is not considered is that there are 2 pages full of other parameters that the car recorded as well. Mercedes can correlate and analyze the additional requested boost to the other parameters in that given moment and would know right away that the requested boost is too high in a given condition. This can also happen because of a faulty O2 sensor for example, but Mercedes can simply test that 02 sensor to verify its readings and if that is line, then they know right away you have a piggyback.
You can always go for piggy back tuners that does provide warranty like Dinan who will 100 percent honor the claim if it is because of the tune, but that still does not save you from flagging your car if you go in for a big item repair as Dinan pays for the repair to be done at a Mercedes dealer.
The one and only way to keep your warranty and still tune the car is this: get a second brand new ECU. This is not easy as the new Mercedes ECUs are considered a TRP (Theft Related Parts), so you would need a dealer's authorization for ordering it. You cannot use second hand used ECUs from junk yards either for the w205 platform because they still do not have virgin files for our ECUs. So the only option is to have a local third party shop that is in very good terms with the Mercedes Parts department order a brand new ECU for you. Then you need a local third party shop that can do online SCN coding, a few are available in US and Canada, not everyone has access to it. Once that is done, you have two ECU linked to your car with identical files. Keep the original one safe and tune the other one. If something breaks, put the old one back in and go in for the repair, to my knowledge not even the engineers in amg headquarter have any means of proving otherwise.
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#3
Any of the full tunes will 100 percent void your warranty if you need any big repairs or if mercedes just randomly decides to dive into it, going through the warranty voiding experience myself, I know exactly how mercedes finds it. I will do a write up soon on it. First thing they will check if the seal is broken during tuning, which no tuner currently is capable of doing without breaking it, meaning most of the time they do not even need to go further than that.
#4
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Actually that is not the case, the piggyback is fooling the ECU into requesting more boost, but what is not considered is that there are 2 pages full of other parameters that the car recorded as well. Mercedes can correlate and analyze the additional requested boost to the other parameters in that given moment and would know right away that the requested boost is too high in a given condition. This can also happen because of a faulty O2 sensor for example, but Mercedes can simply test that 02 sensor to verify its readings and if that is line, then they know right away you have a piggyback.
#5
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That's not entirely true. The Magnuson-Moss warranty act prevents dealers from denying warranty claims because of modifications (if the modifications were found to be unrelated to the issue). Mercedes would have to definitively prove that your tune caused whatever issue arose with your car. It is illegal for Mercedes (or any car manufacturer) to void your warranty entirely because they found out you have a tune. They, however, have the right to refuse any repairs that were proven to be caused by your tune. There is a big difference.
The main issue with warranty is not the warranty support itself however, parts are not the most expensive, like with tuning these engines, the major components that will mostly like go first is the turbo or the tranny which wouldn't make you a broke to repair. Tuning is something where you pay to play, so replacing a turbo or tranny isnt the end of the world.
The main problem is with trading the car or a returning a leased car once the car is flagged. Once the car is flagged in the system, returning the car or trading it in will be extremely difficult. To the point Mercedes might refuse to take it back period. Atleast that is what my understanding is in my experience. If you guys know otherwise please do share.
#6
Super Member
I can believe everything you've stated in your original post (especially about an ECU reflash) BUT this statement. The dealership may have a gut feeling you've used a piggy-back, but can't prove it 100% if it's not connected (and you haven't admitted to anything). It's their job to prove whatever you might have done caused the failure, and as long as you haven't incriminated yourself (left the piggy-back on for the dealership to see), it would be a tough for the dealership to prove without a doubt you've used a piggy-back tune.
#7
Super Member
I can believe everything you've stated in your original post (especially about an ECU reflash) BUT this statement. The dealership may have a gut feeling you've used a piggy-back, but can't prove it 100% if it's not connected (and you haven't admitted to anything). It's their job to prove whatever you might have done caused the failure, and as long as you haven't incriminated yourself (left the piggy-back on for the dealership to see), it would be a tough for the dealership to prove without a doubt you've used a piggy-back tune.
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#8
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Just a quick couple of questions. Could MB not simply correlate all the captured log data at time of turbo failure, as everything is likely date and time stamped, and compare it against other instances of known piggy-back usage that they have undoubtedly found over the years and, in all likelihood, have stored in some historical database they preserve just for just this sort of thing? If they can then demonstrate the data logged is consistent with previous known instances of piggy-back usage that led to past turbo failures, wouldn't that be sufficient to deny a warranty claim for a big ticket repair? After all, piggy-backs all basically function pretty much the same way to achieve additional power, so the data patterns logged would be consistent and look quite different from the standard logged data of a purely stock vehicle. I just would think someone at MB corporate would have realized a long time ago, that collecting and storing this type of data to avoid the expense of costly warranty repairs, due to what MB considers illegal mods of their product, would make a lot of sense.
#9
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Just a quick couple of questions. Could MB not simply correlate all the captured log data at time of turbo failure, as everything is likely date and time stamped, and compare it against other instances of known piggy-back usage that they have undoubtedly found over the years and, in all likelihood, have stored in some historical database they preserve just for just this sort of thing? If they can then demonstrate the data logged is consistent with previous known instances of piggy-back usage that led to past turbo failures, wouldn't that be sufficient to deny a warranty claim for a big ticket repair? After all, piggy-backs all basically function pretty much the same way to achieve additional power, so the data patterns logged would be consistent and look quite different from the standard logged data of a purely stock vehicle. I just would think someone at MB corporate would have realized a long time ago, that collecting and storing this type of data to avoid the expense of costly warranty repairs, due to what MB considers illegal mods of their product, would make a lot of sense.
I doubt it even more if said owner was in their 40 - 60s, a repeat customer, no prior similar incidents, and the vehicle showed no sign of track use.
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Do you honestly think a dealership is going to go through these strides, for lets say a blown turbo, trying to prove a customer might have used a piggy-back tune...one that has only been around for about a year? I highly doubt it.
I doubt it even more if said owner was in their 40 - 60s, a repeat customer, no prior similar incidents, and the vehicle showed no sign of track use.
I doubt it even more if said owner was in their 40 - 60s, a repeat customer, no prior similar incidents, and the vehicle showed no sign of track use.
I didn't even have blown turbos or any major component fail but the lengths to which Mercedes went to prove I was tuned was nothing short of astounding. This entire check if I was tuned or not was triggered by me simply asking for the latest ECU update nothing else. The entire ordreal was huge and it will take me a while to write, that is why I am not posting it. I will write it whole when I get a chance.
#11
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yes and no. The MB dealership isn't a court of law, and they can really do whatever they want. You can take them to court and tie up thousands of dollars, time and be without a car to fight it but they can easily say it's the piggy back and ask you to pay for the repair/service at the time of diagnosis.
You people can split hairs all you want over the issue of running a piggy-back tune, but in the real world, as long as the piggy-back is not present, it will be extremely hard for the dealership to prove you were running one.
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Do you honestly think a dealership is going to go through these strides, for lets say a blown turbo, trying to prove a customer might have used a piggy-back tune...one that has only been around for about a year? I highly doubt it.
I doubt it even more if said owner was in their 40 - 60s, a repeat customer, no prior similar incidents, and the vehicle showed no sign of track use.
I doubt it even more if said owner was in their 40 - 60s, a repeat customer, no prior similar incidents, and the vehicle showed no sign of track use.
I have had several modified vehicles in my life and dealers where ignorant to that fact, they never knew anything out of the ordinary was going on. I used SCT Tuners in the past on Ford products and when the vehicle went in for service or repair I would just flash the ECU back to stock. Never had a problem.
Unless it is absolutely blatant like having a full MSD ignition on a vehicle under warranty or bringing it in for service with a computer re-flash- they should not care. I have had several stock vehicles with complex engine problems, that I brought to many dealers and they did not even take the time to properly diagnose it- I eventually found the problem out myself by using web boards and doing my own investigation. I was blown away that these dealerships could not find what was a common and known problem on these particular engines. They didn't even analyze any data, just had the mechanics take it for a test drive and they stated everything was ok- when it clearly was not.
So I don't know why people think dealers have the time to scrutinize data logs and other parameters. Of course there is always the chance you can get caught, but in my opinion it has to be a blatant red flag.
I am not fully versed on the tunes that are out there but from what I have read on this board, the big three tunes OE, Euro and AMR stay somewhat on the safe side so you won't destroy a transmission or blow a turbo.
Last edited by Lazz83; 01-17-2018 at 12:06 PM.
#15
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It's much easier to build a case when an ECU has been modified...for sure...
#16
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has a point here
That's not entirely true. The Magnuson-Moss warranty act prevents dealers from denying warranty claims because of modifications (if the modifications were found to be unrelated to the issue). Mercedes would have to definitively prove that your tune caused whatever issue arose with your car. It is illegal for Mercedes (or any car manufacturer) to void your warranty entirely because they found out you have a tune. They, however, have the right to refuse any repairs that were proven to be caused by your tune. There is a big difference.
#18
I'm not questioning what happened in your case, but I highly doubt the dealership or MB would go through such lengths trying to prove a piggy-back tune was used, especially when it was removed prior to taking the vehicle to the dealership.
It's much easier to build a case when an ECU has been modified...for sure...
It's much easier to build a case when an ECU has been modified...for sure...
I have a tune, but I understand the risks. I do not think it is fair to people considering a tune, even a piggyback tune, to give the perception that they are totally safe from having it impact their warranty when there is a lot of info out there stating the contrary.
Yes, the burden might be on MB to prove the tune responsible for the failure, but the cost of taking MB to court, will got most people make this prohibitive and there is a good chance you will lose if it is a drive train problem and after all I do not think MB is going to pursue this if you have a failed headlight or AC unit.
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the dealer probably would not in their own, but I have read that MB and specifically AMG engineers have gotten involved when there is a major component failure. The dealership needs to get warranty work approved and if you blow turbos or transmission it is natural for MB/AMG to understand why they had a comment failure.
I have a tune, but I understand the risks. I do not think it is fair to people considering a tune, even a piggyback tune, to give the perception that they are totally safe from having it impact their warranty when there is a lot of info out there stating the contrary.
Yes, the burden might be on MB to prove the tune responsible for the failure, but the cost of taking MB to court, will got most people make this prohibitive and there is a good chance you will lose if it is a drive train problem and after all I do not think MB is going to pursue this if you have a failed headlight or AC unit.
#20
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the dealer probably would not in their own, but I have read that MB and specifically AMG engineers have gotten involved when there is a major component failure. The dealership needs to get warranty work approved and if you blow turbos or transmission it is natural for MB/AMG to understand why they had a comment failure.
I have a tune, but I understand the risks. I do not think it is fair to people considering a tune, even a piggyback tune, to give the perception that they are totally safe from having it impact their warranty when there is a lot of info out there stating the contrary.
Yes, the burden might be on MB to prove the tune responsible for the failure, but the cost of taking MB to court, will got most people make this prohibitive and there is a good chance you will lose if it is a drive train problem and after all I do not think MB is going to pursue this if you have a failed headlight or AC unit.
#21
the dealer probably would not in their own, but I have read that MB and specifically AMG engineers have gotten involved when there is a major component failure. The dealership needs to get warranty work approved and if you blow turbos or transmission it is natural for MB/AMG to understand why they had a comment failure.
I have a tune, but I understand the risks. I do not think it is fair to people considering a tune, even a piggyback tune, to give the perception that they are totally safe from having it impact their warranty when there is a lot of info out there stating the contrary.
Yes, the burden might be on MB to prove the tune responsible for the failure, but the cost of taking MB to court, will got most people make this prohibitive and there is a good chance you will lose if it is a drive train problem and after all I do not think MB is going to pursue this if you have a failed headlight or AC unit.
#22
Super Member
Sounds logical. So while you're going to court for 5 years, the car will sit with a blown motor, and when the lease expires, MB will be happy to send you a 70K invoice for the damage to the vehicle. All while, you're in the wrong for running a tune on your vehicle. Smart guy you are!
#23
Sounds logical. So while you're going to court for 5 years, the car will sit with a blown motor, and when the lease expires, MB will be happy to send you a 70K invoice for the damage to the vehicle. All while, you're in the wrong for running a tune on your vehicle. Smart guy you are!
So, know what you are talking about before letting fly. I defended scores of manufacturers in similar cases and juries usually find against manufacturers, find punitive damages for consumers, and pro-manufacturer experts are hard to find, expensive and seldom believed.
Sum: consumers have MEANINGFUL remedies in the U.S., and manufacturers fear them.
Try not to let your **** overload your mouth.
#24
Super Member
Do you honestly think a dealership is going to go through these strides, for lets say a blown turbo, trying to prove a customer might have used a piggy-back tune...one that has only been around for about a year? I highly doubt it.
I doubt it even more if said owner was in their 40 - 60s, a repeat customer, no prior similar incidents, and the vehicle showed no sign of track use.
I doubt it even more if said owner was in their 40 - 60s, a repeat customer, no prior similar incidents, and the vehicle showed no sign of track use.
Just as an FYI, the process I laid out wouldn't be very intensive for the dealership to do. All their service guys would need to do is plug the car into their on-line diagnostic system and all the ECU and data logs can be uploaded to whomever at MB corporate does this type of analysis. That is the extent of the effort expended by the local dealership's service department. Once the data is at MB, the whole data analysis / comparison process shouldn't take more than one to two hours tops, as their systems are just looking for anomalies from standard performance data for the engine / vehicle type relative to the data logs. Only if the ECU data versus all the log component log data doesn't match, which it wouldn't if someone had a piggy-back attached at time of component failure, would anyone from MB corporate do further data analysis against the historical database to confirm it matched. That is another automated comparative analysis process. So just wanted to let you know that it is not as onerous as you may think. Again, thanks for your reply.
#25
You can always go for piggy back tuners that does provide warranty like Dinan who will 100 percent honor the claim if it is because of the tune, but that still does not save you from flagging your car if you go in for a big item repair as Dinan pays for the repair to be done at a Mercedes dealer.
Thank, but I'll take my chances with a piggyback and MB
Last edited by 18bora; 01-17-2018 at 06:00 PM.