ixez

Hi everyone,

I visited a few car shops today just for kicks and saw a 2016 Mercedes C450 AMG 4MATIC with only 18k miles for just $39k.
Now I'm thinking whether I should keep my '14 S4 with DSG and 47k miles or get that thing and tune it... Ugh.
I definitely prefer the interior of Mercedes, but transmission and other hardware - I have no idea and not sure what's the potential and reliability of those C450 AMG cars. I drove that Merc for a bit and it handles nicely but tranny has some sort of small lag (or maybe turbos).
So far I saw people go Stage 2 with AWE exhausts just like on S4 and it's fun to drive (even stock I must say). Wonder if I can get it to my current S4 level, see below:
2014 Audi S4 B8.5, EPL Stage 2+ DP 93 (445 whp / 420 tq), AMS Alpha Cooling System, Dual Pulley (57mm + 183mm Fluidampr), Injen Intake, AWE Touring Exhaust + Resonated Downpipes + 102mm chrome tips, Alu Kreuz, CR-15, RS grille, 18" O.Z. Ultraleggera Gunmetal + Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+, ECS Stage 1 brake kit with cross-drilled & slotted lightweight 2-piece rotors + Akebono pads

I know the majority owns an MB here but let's be real... Anybody had both cars? Thoughts?

Thanks!

sean1.8t

I'm a big Audi guy (see signature below), or used to be anyways. I never thought I'd stray away from Audi but I wasn't impressed with the B9 (was planning on getting one until I saw the reviews compared to the 450). I mean, it's a definite upgrade over the B8/8.5 but not as much as it should have been if you ask me. The biggest reason I got into Audi over BMW and MB originally was Quattro. Other than Subaru, Audi had the best AWD systems available, but that just isn't true anymore. They really haven't made much improvements and MB seems to have caught up. In fact, I feel that they passed Audi in a few ways. Driving both, they equal as far as capability. But with the front/rear split of 31/69 is a hell of a lot more fun than the 60/40 of my A4's. Not that I've had too on the road, but practicing situations in parking lots, it is very nice to be able to force oversteer in this Benz if I need to. That's something that just wouldn't happen like I'd have liked it to with the Audis. The other thing is the design of Quattro still hanging most of the engine over the front axles. They've pushed it back a slight bit since my B6 but it's nothing close to what Benz's setup is able to be. They use a transfer case type of setup that brings most of the engine BEHIND the front axles. So on dry pavement you can really push these cars much further before it starts to understeer.


As far as power potential, that's a tough one right now as this motor and trans are so new. The motor and stock turbo's have great potential that we've only barely touched on so far. Mostly OTS tunes with some minor tweaking on some. But with just these, we're hitting 400AWHP and 450AWTQ; grain of salt though... Like said, it's all still early and I don't even think a dozen have posted dyno numbers or track slips yet. Only a few cars getting after is so far but it's promising all things considered... So who knows where we'll be in 2-3 years. But the other thing about all this is the transmission. So far no issues and I don't see any major problems at these stages. But who knows what it's limit is. I'm guessing that once we start pushing more aggressive tunes and putting bigger turbos in, it's entirely possible that we start to see issues. Nobody knows yet. And with this V6 being replaced by an I6 in the next couple of years, who knows how much attention aftermarket companies are going to keep giving it until they move on.


My suggestion:

- If you want to get a newer and nicer car and just do a few bolt ons? Ya, get a 450 if you can find a good deal on one. The B8 is sweet, but the 450/43 is way sweeter!

- If you want to get it and try to push the most power out of it right now? I'd keep the S4 for another year or two and see what develops in the 450/43's aftermarket. Because right now we're not super close to matching your S4's current power.

ixez

Thanks for your detailed reply. Much appreciated!

sean1.8t

No problem. Figured I could offer some good insight for you considering my VAG history and knowledge. What you thinking about doing so far?

What are the average stg2+ B8 cars running in the 1/4? And what's the fastest B8 running? Sometimes I poke around on Audizine but not enough to know what all the platforms are at... I still have a dream that once I get a house and garage that I'm going to find an old blown motor B5 S4 avant (or maybe an Allroad) and put a VR6T in it.

Also, pics/vids of your S?

ixez

I think I will keep it for 1-2 years and then see where we are. I thought about Cayman, too... not gonna lie

On B8/B8.5 people post ~11.5 seconds on average. With ultrachargers I saw 10.99s which is great (the best time for this platform).
As for trap speeds - between 112-116 mph.
Since you're into B5's... I believe you'll love this video: (and their channel in general)

I have some videos and photos...
Here's the dyno run: Exhaust: On a drag strip against Stage 1 APR A6: (I posted crappy time since I've never done drag racing before and literally drove from a shop after Stage 2 to race without breaking in new software, hehe)
Photos:

sean1.8t

Nice! Thanks man that vid is awesome! Crazy how small the B5 is compared to everything now. Such a timeless design too.

Your car looks good. And ya, I think that's the best way to go especially since you've got a solid car right now. I think we'll know a lot more about this new 'baby AMG' platform here in the next 2 years.

I like the Pcar SUV's but damn they charge a premium for the brand that's for sure! I've always really liked the SQ5. I haven't driven the new gen's but I assume it's amazing as my parents had the first gen Q7 and now have the new gen. And holy hell is the new gen leaps and bounds better than the old. Everything about it inside and out is nicer/better/faster/higher quality. Plus it drives and feels like its a much smaller car than the first gen. Then again Benz is making some awesome SUVs too right now and they get a lot of points over Audi with their 4.0 V8tt option.

waisoserious

It will be a long while before the 450/43 hit those kind of awhp numbers. There arent many mods even available for the engine yet. Tune, Downpipes, Exhaust and thats all thats available. Anything else youre gonna have to wait or pioneer it yourself. If I was you and I already had an 14' S4, Id keep the S4 personally. Seems like kind of a sideways move to jump into a 450 and then spend MORE money to get it to where your S4 already was. Not to mention that your S4 was a very very late series model, with most of the electronic and mechanical issues already worked out vs an earlier production model.

alexasa

iTrader: (1)

Loved my 13 S4 way more than I ever cared for my C.

Torque is addicting in the C but the S4 was a better car all around, IMO. Better built, better sound system and infinitely more aftermarket support.

ixez

Thanks! I'll keep the S4 for now and will see where things go. C63 AMG in previous body is a great car But there are not so many of them left especially with low mileage. And I still want to try a Cayman for kicks.
I haven't tried the new Q5 either, but I had a new Q7 as a loaner and it was a very solid SUV. Handles like a normal sedan and got a plenty of horses.

Thanks again for your opinion!

ixez

Thank you, I wasn't aware of the situation with mods but your reply was helpful. I'm gonna keep my car for now.

jonathan358

As others have said, the S4 and C43 are about the same class and are cross-shopped all the time. I would just save for something bigger and better.

A stock C43 is better than S4 but it's tunes are nowhere near as powerful as the S4's. Stock: C43 Modded: S4

And @alexasa, which C class did you have?

raudiace4

Do you need to have AWD? If not, I'd wait and find a C63. It's a higher tier of performance, and the difference between a C450/C43 and B8.5 S4 performance wise is marginal. Your B8.5 is already set up to be a monster, you're going to need a lot of supporting mods on that C450 to be able to match it or even come close. The B8.5 interior seems a bit dated now compared to these newer C class, there's no doubt about that but If I were you I'd wait for a C63.

I recently made the jump from a 2016 B8.5 S4 to a C63s coupe. I was FBO and stage2 /tcu tuned. The DSG in the S4s is much better than the 9g-tronic in the C43 or 7g in the C450. I also drove the C43 before buying a C63, and it's just wasn't special enough for me to make a switch. The C63 is a different story.

ShazV6

@ IXEZ- With all those mods on the s4 that you have at 445 and 422 toque that is nice, but keep in mind that Eurocharge made 420 whp and 496 torque on a tune only with no other respective mods and this is at 17 psi only and there is more to go lol.Just some food for thought if your considering. But 445 and 422 is very nice for a daily.

@Jonathan358- Stage 1 S4 VS Stage 1 c43 the c43 mops up the Audi. I know from personal experience. My closest friend has a s4 B8.5 with APR stage 1 tune. I put lengths on him all the time. I have another friend with an s5 6 speed manual that is stage 2 + by APR. I was version 2 stage 1... i still pulled on him by half of a car and would of continued too if we kept running. And we did multiple runs to confirm this...

Not trying to stir up an 43 vs s4/s5 debate or anything just stating my real world experiences.

alexasa

iTrader: (1)

I don't really care which car is faster. The Audi weighs more and the engine is in a worse spot sitting entirely in front of the axle. The linear power band with the supercharger is awesome and you can have one with a manual transmission which is infinitely better than both the DSG option in the Audi and both the 7 speed and 9 speed auto's offered in the c450/c43.

I could actually enjoy the stock sound system in the Audi, whereas I am left completely unimpressed with the system in the C class. It's so bad that I listened to music less, in general.

This is when comparing the B8 S4 to the c450/c43. The B9 has solved most of understeer issues associated with the B8 and the new engine/platform is better/faster.

The stock suspension is also much more compliant in the audi while exhibiting less body roll and wheel fitment is easy and can be squared to rotate tires more freely extending the lifespan.

2016 c450

sean1.8t

This is on a 43? Link to this?

ShazV6

https://mbworld.org/forums/c450-c43-...rocharged.html

Numbers were 413 whp* sorry

Gungaslow

sean1.8t

That's more like it. Those are the type of numbers I expected from this motor with a good tune.


Buuuuuuuut I think I'm happy where I'm at. The car is a beast on a lease how it sits. I wouldn't worry about the motor yet but I'm interested to see how these trannys hold up over time with that torque.

Also, 'Dyno Season' is almost over... Soon it's gonna be time to track it up to back it up

waisoserious

I wonder what that tune would Dyno in LA weather though lol. On the same kind of Dyno and again on a Mustang Dyno. Genuinely Curious how much the weather would change the output rating.

Standingoten

ShazV6

This. Everyone needs to shut up, and let the car do the talking. Lets see who's actually going to do this lol

sean1.8t

Exactly!

I've been around these forum dyno battles for over 10 years now. Some companies (like in the Honda and GTR communities for example) will mostly just use the dyno for their work and post it as a 'before&after' thing. Their proof to the product comes from the track or some vbox times. But so many (like in the Audi world) would just put up dyno sheets. Everyone would be amazed and some would be legit but I would see a lot of shady crap go down. People would buy a $10k turbo kit that showed a 600whp dyno on their shop car but when the customers take their car to the track it can't do better than low 12s.

I like what that 1.8bora guy is doing. He's been going to the track between tweaks to his tune and even on just a piggy-back, he's showed the fastest 1/4mile times. We'll see what this season brings. Hopefully this is the year that our aftermarket gets going properly.

maximus0076

Can you imagine if you raced that Ultracharger car and you were on Version 3? It would have been worst