MHP

I'll be interested to actually take delivery of my car to verify the TB opening. We've seen the same 80% open at WOT on GT500s and SRT8s only to find the TB 100% open.

CynCarvin32

Thank you for confirming this as fact. It is obvious that its all an ECU tune issue holding the car back. All parts are the same as far as motors go so the difference in power from 450 to 507 is all in the ecu.

My source was directly from RENNtech. I am sure they would be glad to explain it to anyone who feels like calling and asking about their ECU tune.

Next generation of these 6.2L motors will likely have Direct Injection meaning a higher level of specific power output with more advanced and efficient combustion. 550 hp is simple on this motor and 600 hp without turbos is possible as well. It is all about efficient combustion and efficient airflow.

racetested

I'm not sure if tuners are doing any extensive data logging compared to what a simple tool can read. My C350 shows a WOT of 85% using a scangauge. I'll see what my new LM2 shows when I get it but I suspect the same.

Does this mean the the throttle is only opening 85% or that's the max read yet the throttle plate is open 100%.

MRAMG1

Thanks my friend
I had actually hoped that it wasn't true. But then again, as someone else posted, who would pay an extra $100,000 for the same power Oh well, good to know and thanks again.

See yeah

peet

Agreed - and what is the price and results and MAKE of yours?

The main thing I'd really REALLY like to see is either the ability to self-load the software (a la programmer like they have on Mustangs or the old Conforti Shark Injector) or a piggy back like they use on 335i engines.

IF the main thing the ECU on the c63 does differently is limit butterfly opening, wouldn't it be quicker and easier to do a piggy back on the cable to the butterfly and using a logarythmic scale compress it so it's 100% instead of just 90%? That should be a $100 solution!

But do chime back on what yo are doing please HMP

MB Fanatic

So I should buy a C class and not an S or SL? Lol I love that logic.

MHP

MHP (Modern Horsepower)

I hear you on the hand helds, unfortunately there's not enough of a market for Diablo/SCT, etc to jump into the AMG game.
I'll post as much info on my tune as I can, including pricing, next week when I officially become a supporting vendor. I'm am also going to try rack up as many miles as I can in the next two weeks before I begin tuning.
As for testing, I'll have SAE corrected before/after Dyno Jet rwhp/rwtq, corrected/uncorrected track results, and the usual subjective SOTP data. Maybe even a few race vids vs my Jeep or a local customer's low 11 second 175 shot Jeep SRT8.
After netting solid results, and by this I mean better and cheaper than the competition, with my own car I'll tune one unbiased member. I'll even let the forum members decide who it should go to at a severely discounted rate so they can post their own objective thoughts/results.

Thanks
Andy

MHP

First, to be honest, I don't buy the 80% opening at WOT bit. I've personally seen the same results (80% throttle opening at WOT) with at least two other vehicles of different makes. For some reason the scanner just isn't reading that PID correctly. I know this because I've actually looked at my TB as well as a GT500s at WOT and witnessed the blade 100% horizontal while my scanner (and others) said 80% open.
What is very common especially in higher powered vehicles is a built-in delay in TB opening. For example with a stock tune Jeep SRT8s have a .7 second delay from the time your foot hits the floor to the time the TB blade actually goes 100% open; including both launch and shifs--when the blade actually shuts between gears. We eliminate 100% of that lag via tuning and see average reductions in ET of .4-.5+ and gains of 3.5-4.0mph in the quarter mile with otherwise stock or near stock (just a CAI) Jeeps. Not to shabby for a tune in a 4800lb brick.
By managing torque in this manner manufacturers are attempting to reduce driveline warranty and personal liability claims by handicapping our cars to pad their bank accounts. We can tune around this and thereby drastically improve throttle response and make the car quicker/faster as well.
As you suggested you could modify the TB electronics but from prior experience that usually makes the vehicle difficult to tune. Basically tuning the delay out is a better ultimate solution.

Thanks
Andy

celsius

Flash should be < $600 right? I mean, a N/A car shouldn't need a piggy back which should only cost us around $1000 if it did. Typical MB tuners charge alot because they think that MB owners have money to blow. To people that don't know, a "flash" is kind of like burning a CD, everyone would be paying for the initial R&D which is only about a week's worth of work or less if the tuners capable and once the tuner has a good map, he just burns it to a ROM.

MHP

Yes it's true, MB tuners and parts makers charge more because MBs cost more in general than most other cars. Logic dictates that the more expensive the car, the more expensive the mod(s).
Although I agree that present tunes are overpriced, it's not as simple as just copying tables from one tune to another. As an example with Diablo CMR software for DCX products after 8 mos. of it being released we are constantly updating and revising our tunes as we discover new methods to increase performance and drivability.

celsius

I hear ya, but I think it's more of a problem with forced induction vs N/A...so, all the 63 series motors shouldn't have a huge issue.
I've owned a 417whp(pump fuel) Rx-7 that was running a Haltech ecu, so I do have experience with tuning, just not with MB's and ROMs

MRAMG1

What I was meaning was that a racehead like me road race/drag/autocross would propably buy the lighter cheaper car, if it had the same power, to get MORE performance at the track, okay the same, for less money. Obviously, any "normal" individual will, pick a car for looks, room, comfort etc. I just happen to be a grass roots gear head. AKA a poor, married with children want to be tracker

See yeah

Personally, I am looking at a CLS55 for my next toy.

Sincity

Where are you located?

MHP

It's easier to tune a stock longblock N/A motor than FI, nitrous, or H/C no question. However it still took the industry a while to get to this point--where we can absolutely nail a stock longblock tune. We still can't run large cams, etc. without throwing a MIL.

MHP

Columbus, OH.

Thanks
Andy

peet

Andy thanks for all the quick feedback. I took a look at your site, and please don't take this as an insult - but your experience is fairly American car centric. As an untested tuner to the Benz side the price should definitely reflect the learning curve. I don't even want to begin defending the insane $4k price Renn charges - but they claim that if the motor blows up they will fix it. Or at least insinuate it.

Next down the laddter is Evo who is working with Powerchips - they have been in the Euro biz a while now and are somewhat proven, but even their motors are blowing up from what I've heard.

If there is ANYTHING you can do to create a PDA/handheld solution that can be "backed out" of the ECU to keep from creating a warranty void situation during regular visits - it would sell like hotcacakes. You really should see if Diablo et al will work with you on it. I would pay a slight premium for that option myself.

Thanks again - can't wait to see your results.

P

MHP

peet, no insult taken. My website development is seriously lagging by comparison to the achievements we've made in the real world--such is the price of not being web savvy and having someone else do the work...
As for a learning curve, again not worried, at all. I know for a fact RennTech doesn't have the software I do for tuning. I also stand behind everything I sell. I have to say though it's nearly impossible to "blow up" a stock longblock N/A motor. A monkey would have to cut the tune for it to even be a feasible possibility.
I have three spare ECUs on their way to me right now. As soon as I get them I'll begin tinkering, and when I have documented gains on the order of what I'm looking for, will find an objective tester to verify my results. Then it's open season on tunes at a significantly reduced rate vs the competition.

The bottom line is we're dealing with a 4v N/A V8, origin doesn't really matter. Ford's been using them since '93 and we've been tuning them since then. If I can make 440rwhp SAE with a 4.6L 4v, and 597rw with a 5.4L 4v (with miniscule 3.55" bore on both no less), I'm not worried about a stock longblock or even H/C 6.2.

Honestly I don't have the resources or disposable income that SCT, HHP, Diablo, etc. do to create a handheld. However our solution will be more user friendly than what others are offering at present. There will be no down time.
I've known Mike Wesley (principal owner) and PK (VP marketing) at Diablo for close to ten years. Trust me, I've already made several attempts with no success. At the rate we'll be charging for a tune, you can buy a spare ECU to install for dealer visits and still save $.

I look forward to bringing forth significantly higher quality products at seriously reduced rates when compared to the rest of the market. It's something that's long been lacking in this genre of automobiles, IMO anyway.

Thanks
Andy

celsius

MHP, if your ECU upgrade is priced reasonable...I'll buy one too

peet

Thanks again for the terrific replies! If I can get a solid package including an ECU and your tunes look good, I can't wait. You will totally have a winner!

Please keep us up to date and good luck!

Glock Guru

MHP

Thanks for the open minded and level headed responses gentlemen. Again, I can't tell you how much we look forward to bringing a new level of performance per dollar to this market.
I've always been a 4 valve guy at heart and IMO this is easily the best mass production 4v V8 to date in terms of what's left on the table.
Here are a few pics of my own all aluminum 5.4L/4v. 550rwhp/445rwtq SAE on a DJ. The build includes a Ford GT block, race ported Ford GT heads, custom cast intake manifold, custom longtube headers, custom billet cams, dual spring valvetrain with Ti locks/retainers, custom SS valves, billet 4340 connecting rods, custom 2618 pistons with custom tool steel wrist pins, etc. etc.
Ported Ford GT heads will flow around 380-400cfm intake/280-300cfm exhaust @ .500" lift with outstanding velocity. All with rather miniscule 37mm/32mm valves on a tiny 3.55" bore. (What all that means is I don't see why we can't make 575rw SAE or more with H/C + exhaust + tuning with a 6.2).

Pics:

Ford GT exhaust port:



Ford GT intake port:



Another:



Custom cast intake manifold:



Another:





Finally a shot of the 425rw SAE stock longblock (untouched heads/cam/shortblock) 6.1 in my Jeep SRT8:

MHP

Pics of a preproduction (note all the band clamps) GT500 full exhaust, all 304 stainless with a lifetime warranty on everything:

















Stock exhaust manifold/log:

Sincity

Can't wait to see what you guys can do with the 6.2. Beautifully mandrel bent x-pipes and exhaust.

MHP

Thank You Sir!