tglickamg

Hey everyone,

I just joined the forum and am expecting the arrival of my c63 (iridium silver / black) in mid may. Here is an interesting question that came up in a conversation the other day, maybe someone can answer it.

Why is there such a difference in HP between all of the AMG 6.2 engines?

I.E.

C63 ... 451hp
CLK63 ... 475hp
ML63 ... 503hp
E63 ... 507hp
CLS63 ... 507hp
S63 ... 518hp
CL63 ... 518hp

So where is the difference in power coming from? More restrictive exhaust? Different engine mapping? Difference intake? Different cooling system?

oldgixxer

The main difference is marketing.People who drop S-Class money expect their S63 to make more hp then a "lower class" CLK,E or CLS.
There are a few exceptions,as noted:
C63 ... 451hp-restricted output due to size limitations for exhaust,intake etc
CLK63 ... 475hp again,due to chassis design dual exhaust wont fit;less hp

ML63 ... 503hp
E63 ... 507hp
CLS63 ... 507hp
S63 ... 518hp
CL63 ... 518hp
You forgot the CLK63 Black Series;but with the exception of the C63&CLK63 all the 6.2l AMG engines make the SAME hp,just about 510@the crank & 420hp at the wheels.

It's been discussed to great detail in the W211 forum concerning the E55,SL55,S,CL55 etc. M-B listed some 55K engines as 469hp and others as 493hp when in fact they all dyno the same....

Welcome to the forum

360_iti

Before someone tells you to STFF, please allow me to kindly ask you to stff.
Thanks

360_iti

ah someone beat me to it.

WAY

As I mentioned on another tread, a quick flash of the ECU by DMS Automotive (highly respectable company) will bring the power up to 491hp. To get it to a higher level will require higher flow filters and exhaust mods.

tglickamg

Im looking at the DMS Automotive site - I dont see anything about C63 tuning. So simply remapping the ECU will raise it to 491hp? How much? Where do I sign up? Any risks?

F_Porsche

not completely right, as the Coupe gets dual exhaust. but it would be stupid to mark the coupe higher as the convertable.

oldgixxer

I took it as the the OP was in the USA,where the coupe is not available

oldgixxer

Before you start altering your $65k+ AMG,do a search for ECU flash;there are some HORROR stories posted here.I wanted to flash mine as well and decided against it after researching this topic in great detail.

Re-mapping a naturally aspirated engine is not as rewarding as a boosted engine,you can easily gain 80+hp from remapping a V12tt AMG,not so much on our N/A engines

WAY

That is not true if the naturally aspirated engine is artificially tuned "down" like the C63. Increasing the power to 491hp like what DMS is doing is just getting the engine back to it's "normal" state without over stressing the engine at all. But I hear you in terms of people having problems with remaps.

onofew

If you do a search you will come across upset E63 owners in the forums where they chassis dyno their cars and the outcome was very disappointing. It was way under the advertised figures
I myself had nothing but pinging issues, with my 07 CLK63 with 91 oct fuel.
Very recently I blended 101oct racing fuel to bring it up to 96 oct, there is day and night difference in the responsiveness, pulls much harder to the top and not to mention pinging disappeared.
This weekend I will have my car dynode with higher oct fuel that is still in it, and following week with pump gas, and I would not be surprised there is 20-30 RWH loss on pump gas.
I believe MB is tuning the 6.2 motor down to avoid detonation problems and still claming 507 on some cars and 451 on the later models.

oldgixxer

WAY: I agree with what your saying;if in fact it the 450hp was strictly from electronic limiting&not due to intake/exhaust restrictions inherent to the particular application.Trying to get more HP from a simple ECU flash on a Black Series,E,CLS,S,CL63 is where I see the problem.

onofew: An example would be that the 6.2l engine senses Intake Air Temperature & adjusts(pulls) timing as needed to avoid detonation.Increasing the octane will raise the threshold where the I.A.T. sensor will allow full timing advance&therefore allow full power to be delivered.
VRP includes instructions on re-locating the I.A.T sensor w it's VRP550kit,this proved it was worth a few HP

IMO the 6.2l (being that its a 4 valve per cyl. w a relatively high redline) engine likes to breathe,so I see the biggest bump in HP coming from equal length headers,full free-flowing exhaust,larger cams,headwork,etc.
But that equals tens of thousands of dollars so it's not for everyone,especially me

My aplogies if this doesn't make sense;I'm half asleep thanx to a lovely Ambien CR&having a difficult time conveying my thoughts

transferred

There shouldn't be a problem as the specific out put of even 518bhp (CL/S) is low for a 6.2l lump. Lok at the Audi 4.2 and BMW 5.0l that are producing 100/l yet run fine off 91 (though would be best off 93 if avail here)

NORTH 44 C63

This is a quote from our friends at VRP Performance Tuning. These guys really know the AMG M156 engine.

"Although AMG rates the M156 engine from 475hp in the CLK63 to 518hp in the S63, in reality this engine is right around 505hp, as all cars make close to 420hp at the wheels (420/0.83 = 506hp)."

They have also recently uncovered that the timing difference between the S63 and CLK63 shows that the CLK has been retarded by 3-4 Degrees. I think this is a very plausible place to look for HP differences.

Personally I think with a better Hi-Flow air filter Vs the "suffocating" stock charcoal filters and a little ECU tweak and the C63 will get to 500+hp very easily. Go a little further and add some Phenolic Heat Spacers and a couple of UD pulleys and 530hp may be a reality for the C63. Not a large $ investment (contrary to other thoughts) to get there either. Time will tell

I can't wait!!!

onofew

Guys I doubt that any one of you are experiencing pinging problems like I’m. There are quiet a few of them out there with similar issues.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the injectors, no abnormal internal friction, neither the car is throwing any codes. According to MB service dpt my car’s timing is on the money.
Maybe it just the way my version of the ECU is programmed to manage the motor this way
With 91oct pump gas I can feel the timing backing off within it’s parameters and still pinging.
I’m convinced that MB became aware this problem and they have updated their ECUs on later models.
Seat of pants the difference can be felt in my car.
The only way I’ll be able to substantiate what I’m trying tell you guys is to run back to back dyno pulls. How much RWH will I make with pump gas? 360-380 or it will actually pull 410-420 range as it’s been dynode on other 63 models. Also how much gain can be achieved with higher octane fuel?
So my point is MB is very inconsistent with the way they advertise their HP. Some of us may not be getting our moneys worth.

Rafal

Please pardon my ignorance but what will those pulleys do in a NA engine without a supercharger, other than speed up the water pump, alternator, power steering and airconditioner?

You will end up with the coldest, fastest turning and most electrically charged C63 on the streets

EVLC36

Erm, underdriving accessories makes them spin slower, which frees up a few bhp.

iolithblue

under drive pulley, so you will have the hottest, slowest turning, least electrically charged car on the street, quite literally!

EVLC36

No, wrong, the C63 is the only 6.2 rated at this power, becuse its the baby benz.

Look at the new SL, rated at the full power...

Edit, thought about this a bit more, and even the notion is ridiculous, AMG would be completely uncompetitive agains BMW M and Audi RS

The M5/M6 has 500bhp, and the new RS6 will have 580bhp.

If the larger AMGs only had 450bhp, not only would they have less power and much less torque than the blown M113s, they would be completely outpowered by all rivals.

Rafal

I did get it backwords, still the car won't go any faster

oldgixxer

A member here who has installed the VR530 on his CLS63&it does in fact give 20HP to the wheels:
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...ighlight=vr530

for those to lazy to search

NORTH 44 C63

Here is the link to VRP and associated Dyno's for the VRP530 project.

http://www.vrptuning.com/projects/VR530/

According to Axel at the AMG Performance Ctr in Stuttgart, adding 10% in pulley size will have "Virtually no effect on Cooling, Charging or Steering systems."

On the VRP530 kit the AC pulley remains stock.

02c32AMG

thanks for the link

NORTH 44 C63

No problem. Nice to see that there are still a few members that don't have their heads stuck in the sand (LOL)

Jim Brady

The primary difference is the ecu programing in each amg model. For openers the ecu in MB is one of the most sophisticated in the automotive world with a double loop system so it's almost impossible to trick via sensors. For the fast buck tuners they can change some of the limiters but so far no one has figured out how to increase the throttle which is the key to allowing the motor to take advantage of more fuel and air. When someone cracks the code on the throttle limiter this motor will make some big power. Currently, the ecu changes are minor timing and delimiting.

Jimmy