What is the truth behind a C63 Tune?
07-09-2010, 10:56 AM
#151
You are absolutely correct about it creating a warranty concern. There are a lot of threads around that speak to if a warranty can or can not be voided. I have no personal experience with this so I can not comment.
The EPA mandated a function called Software Verification Number. Basically, this is a glorified checksum of all the programming on the ECU. The idea was that the manufacturer would publish a database for the EPA listing all released firmware numbers together with the correct SVN. The emissions test station can then ask the ECU for its firmware number and ask it to calculate the SVN. If the two do not agree, the firmware has been modified.
There is no reason why MB could not perform the very same checks and spot any modifications including enabling the ECU for programming. I have never heard of a dealer running SVN apart from part of the firmware updating process but that does not mean they can't or will not start doing so in the future.
As for a test to write the ECU, none of what the programmer or most tuners do will interfere with Star's ability to update a car's firmware. If it did, MB would be replacing all these tuned ECUs for failure to reprogram.
The EPA mandated a function called Software Verification Number. Basically, this is a glorified checksum of all the programming on the ECU. The idea was that the manufacturer would publish a database for the EPA listing all released firmware numbers together with the correct SVN. The emissions test station can then ask the ECU for its firmware number and ask it to calculate the SVN. If the two do not agree, the firmware has been modified.
There is no reason why MB could not perform the very same checks and spot any modifications including enabling the ECU for programming. I have never heard of a dealer running SVN apart from part of the firmware updating process but that does not mean they can't or will not start doing so in the future.
As for a test to write the ECU, none of what the programmer or most tuners do will interfere with Star's ability to update a car's firmware. If it did, MB would be replacing all these tuned ECUs for failure to reprogram.
07-09-2010, 10:59 AM
#152
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We all know once we flash tune our cars, the warranty is void. That is just a risk we take even though a tune basically takes us to S63 specs. The warranty issue really depends on the dealer as well. Mine told me that the ECU portion is void since it has to be opened up to use the BDM programmer, however, the engine warranty remains intact since I have a Kleemann tune. But......a big BUT.....that remains to be seen.
So far, I haven't heard of any engine failures due to a tune. Look at heavilly modded cars like C63_Guy, rarfinancial, and jrcart to name a few.
So far, I haven't heard of any engine failures due to a tune. Look at heavilly modded cars like C63_Guy, rarfinancial, and jrcart to name a few.
07-09-2010, 11:10 AM
#153
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2017 Mini Cooper S Clubman ALL4 - British Racing Green
I'm somewhat clue up on warranties. Google "magnuson moss act"
This is the federal act that protects consumers from venders/manufacturers/etc from voiding warranties if the failed device/item has nothing to do with the change you made.
For example, yes you have a tune, but your door fell off the last time you opened it, they cannot void the warranty unless they can prove that the modification you made directly resulted in the failure.
In the past, car makes used to try to void warranties based on using aftermarket stereos, they lost many a law suit over that.
The ECU on the other hand, does control the engine/transmission/lots of other parts of the car, so a change to the ECU would void any warranty to anything that it controls, if the dealer can prove that the modification directly impacted the failure... Your engine falling out of the engine bay while driving because the engine mounts failed could not be claimed as a failure that resulted from tampering with the ECU, so the warranty would remain in tact, however, blowing your engine because you over revved it after removing the limit and then it falls out of the engine bay.. that would be a voided warranty and an expensive fix for the owner.
This is the federal act that protects consumers from venders/manufacturers/etc from voiding warranties if the failed device/item has nothing to do with the change you made.
For example, yes you have a tune, but your door fell off the last time you opened it, they cannot void the warranty unless they can prove that the modification you made directly resulted in the failure.
In the past, car makes used to try to void warranties based on using aftermarket stereos, they lost many a law suit over that.
The ECU on the other hand, does control the engine/transmission/lots of other parts of the car, so a change to the ECU would void any warranty to anything that it controls, if the dealer can prove that the modification directly impacted the failure... Your engine falling out of the engine bay while driving because the engine mounts failed could not be claimed as a failure that resulted from tampering with the ECU, so the warranty would remain in tact, however, blowing your engine because you over revved it after removing the limit and then it falls out of the engine bay.. that would be a voided warranty and an expensive fix for the owner.
07-09-2010, 12:12 PM
#154
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^ Agreed... However, you may have to hire an attorney to get the dealer to go along, provided you don't have a good relationship to start with. As I'm finding out from my rear end collision, insurance companies, dealers, etc., will string you along as it is much easier for them, and sometimes a cost benefit to simply drag out the process as most folks don't have the $$$ to make 'em do the right thing.
07-09-2010, 04:27 PM
#155
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E63 P30, CL500 Sport
Data logging is truly key for this type of testing and I hope it does not get ignored or neglected. I know dyno sheets are more popular but data logging provides a more in-depth look on how the tune is working and how the car is responding to it.
07-09-2010, 05:07 PM
#156
and my offer to supply free bits is tied to the owner posting everything for all to see
07-10-2010, 08:55 AM
#157
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C63
I am willing to do a few runs to log the data. My car is LET/Eurocharged flashed so I would be interested to see the results compared to other flashed cars.
07-10-2010, 10:09 AM
#158
You can download the log data viewer at http://www.efidude.com/downloads/ME97_Logger/install.htm .
Some find the install simple and others it fights back. I am not a PC programmer and do not have an explanation for this.
Drop me a PM with an email address and I will send you a sample log data file (from a C63). The forum does not accept .dat files or I would have attached it. You use File => Import => Vehicle Data File to import the attached .dat file. Once imported you can select up to three values for each of the display areas. Click on a data point to center it on the display. Hold the right mouse button down to “fly” the data. Moving the mouse right and left will scroll the data while up and down will zoom in and out. I asked for data meets video game and this is what I got
It does not look like I am going to get any takers on the “stock to E” testing for the C63. This may get more attention if a long time forum member started a separate thread.
Some find the install simple and others it fights back. I am not a PC programmer and do not have an explanation for this.
Drop me a PM with an email address and I will send you a sample log data file (from a C63). The forum does not accept .dat files or I would have attached it. You use File => Import => Vehicle Data File to import the attached .dat file. Once imported you can select up to three values for each of the display areas. Click on a data point to center it on the display. Hold the right mouse button down to “fly” the data. Moving the mouse right and left will scroll the data while up and down will zoom in and out. I asked for data meets video game and this is what I got
It does not look like I am going to get any takers on the “stock to E” testing for the C63. This may get more attention if a long time forum member started a separate thread.
07-10-2010, 11:58 AM
#160
Not all dynos can simulate the load on the car. some are just inertial dynos, not the ones that can simulate resistance.
I totally agree that buying an out of the box tune, is very dangerous, considering that the conditions when and where the tune was made can be very different from the ones on your car.
When I get my car tuned, it is tuned to a specific brand and grade of fuel, and I only use that fuel on the car.
07-10-2010, 07:01 PM
#161
Senior Member
we use mustang dynos in cali which are load based and read much lower than high reading dynojets. checking a log for knock counts after a street pull is a good idea too. just weird that nobody has desiphered the c63 ecu yet...
07-11-2010, 07:22 AM
#162
08-04-2010, 12:04 PM
#163
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Thread Starter
We are now hearing that the tune on a P31 pretty much matches the "typical" tune that is out there. Next question is, can we load the P31 tune onto our cars from the dealer if you know "someone" in the inside?
