Vegas_AMG_C63

13.2 is the threshold of safe for an N/A motor from my experience... anything higher than that, especially above 5K rpm is dangerous and will start burning your cats out, being that you have those error messages repressed from your display due to your ECM tune... you wouldn't even know if your factory cats are still functioning.

You may have even burned them to bits and blown them out the tailpipes by now. I'd have someone peek in through your O2 bung port with a borascope to see.

Personally, I love a mixture (above 3500rpm) to be 13.0 on N/A with the Top 1500 rpms at 12.8 to be safe while under that high strain load and to keep the temperatures down a bit.

BerBer63

He is catless....but I like your numbers.

avengerboater

Thanks for posting your dyno, sir! It does seem very odd that you got richer with the LTs compared to the shorties. IIRC, your LTs are catless, as well, right? That does seem strange.

All of my pulls showed similar AFRs up until the 4700rpm mark, then the AFRs in 4th gear pulls were somewhat consistent with each other and the two 5th gear pulls showed similar AFRs, as well. But this only holds until 6000rpm, then it's just a crapshoot from then on.

The AFR readings were taken at the exhaust tailpipe. Were yours taken at the header pipe? I'm not sure if there would be any differences since we're catless, but that's just a guess since I don't know.



Schweet!!!! Many thanks, sir!

That's what I am worried about, the ECU tune would repress any CELs that would come up from the engine running too lean. Thus, it is critical that I get consistent "safe" AFR readings on the dyno in different gears. And yes, I am catless.

Dads C63

Avengerboater,
A catless system will read richer because the cats will burn some of the unspent fuel. You are seeing all the fuel there is and it ain't pretty I'm afraid.

My readings come from the bung right behind the headers(no cats) and its very safe. Usually in the upper 11's to mid 12's at the highest.

avengerboater

I see, thanks! I'll throw it on the dyno tomorrow and see how it reacts to a new file. And yes, I'm still enjoying the car.

Dads C63

Glad you are enjoying it!!

You need to get to a track while the weather is still cold!! You should run some incredible times!!!!!! Good luck and be safe!

Mort

I think that runs on the fly on the street are easier on the car than a dyno pull is. You need to log it to see! The dyno and 1/4 mile pulls are far harder on the car from a tuning and fuel delivery requirement than street blasts. On the street you have a ton more cooling air and the loads on the drive train are different. Air resistance increases exponentially on the street as speeds go up and thus so do the loads which will hopefully raise the AFR in the tune. It always helps to be able to tune it on the dyno then retune it on the street and/or at the track. Unfortunately you cannot easily do any of those things and have to rely on a more or less canned tune. Kind of stinks IMO.

If this was a chev and looking at the graph in post 45 I would say that the tune has issues. In forth gear the car does not seem to be going into PE (Power Enrichment). Look at the 5th gear pulls and the tune seems to going into PE and commanding high 12s low 13s which is close to optimum, except for that problematic spike between 6100 - 6700 rpm. It looks like the Parameters for PE are not adjusted correctly in 4th gear for some reason. Once the basic Parameters for PE are met it should apply to all gears. In a chev the main settings are for Throttle Position and MAP. Since you are running a MAF(s) tune it needs some way to rich-en the mixture when you are at WOT.

The lean spike from 6100 - 6700 rpm, or there about, looks like a glitch in the PE Table once it is commanded. Once it hits that rpm range the commanded fuel factors look to be out of line. That would worry me as well. If it went lean and stayed lean it might mean that you are running out of fuel (pump or injector). I am leaning toward a problem with the tune to check first but it still may prove to be a mechanical problem.

As a caveat, I am only an average tuner on my own truck. I do read alot and I hope this will help you in a general way and help you to communicate with your tuner.

Those graphs do look dangerously lean to me and my truck would have fried some pistons by now but FI is a little bit of a different animal.

I have Autoenginuity as well with enhanced parameters for Chevrolet. It works adequately but cannot touch the EFILive Tuning and Scanning package I have for the truck. I also run a LC-1 from Innovate. If you cannot find software to log external inputs then a LM-1 has built in logging features which work well but cannot easily be tied into other logged data.

Vegas_AMG_C63

I also agree that real world logging is the best. I use an LM-1 wideband positioned before the cats so that you get a true reading. If you did have cats and read after them, the #'s would be leaner as a previous poster mentioned.

FWIW, you can connect additional channels to the LM-1 for logging purposes, there is an additional module (LM-5 I believe). I've used it to log timing, EGR, etc... it works pretty well. It's like a mini data acquisition system for your car.

In any case, for a street car, just make sure that your #'s are safe... I think MHP #'s seem a little rich for maximum power, but again for the street, that's not such a bad thing. Better safe than sorry. With that said, I think all the tuners seem to put out safe #'s and we haven't been hearing of any problems out there from what I can tell from running too lean. If you can stay below 13:1 before the cats or without cats, you'll be safe enough.

avengerboater

So, after the results of the previous dyno day and seeing my AFRs go buck wild after 6000 rpm (in both 4th and 5th gear), I was not feeling very comfortable. The power numbers were very pleasing to the eyes, but what is the point of having power if you can't safely drive on it?

Hence, an attempt to contact Cory at Kleemann was made and a resolution was set forth. After showing Cory my graphs and data, adjustments to the existing file was in order. I shipped my ECU out to Cory on Wednesday morning, he uploaded the new file onto my ECU Thursday, and I got it back this morning (Friday). Thanks, Cory! As soon as I received my ECU, it went right onto the car. I drove it around for half an hour, hammering it, got into a tiny bit of trouble , and straight onto the dyno it went.

The results are as follow:
Condition:

Air temperature: 62-68F
Humidity: 29%
Altitude: 200ft
Correction factor: SAE Smoothing: 5


4TH GEAR RUNS:




5TH GEAR RUNS:




As you can see, the AFRs in both all runs were much better this time around, going into the mid and low 12:1's as the revs get higher--especially past 6000 rpm, it is now so much more comforting.

What was surprising to me was the fact that I didn't lose any power with the new richer AFRs. I had thought I would see a decrease in max power and torque, but they were just as good as the previous time--only with much safer AFRs.

Needless to say, I am a happy camper!

One last note: I took my K&N filters out a few nights prior to this dyno day and put the OEM paper filters back in. So, these runs were done with paper filters (charcoals still removed) in comparison to the previous runs with K&Ns. Results showed that there was absolutely no difference in power. Save the money you'd spend on those filters and take your significant other(s) out to a nice dinner.

hhughes1

That does look much better. The beast is released!!

Mort

Kudos to cory@Kleemann and avengerboater.

Congrats. Those results look excellent. A huge improvement!

Are you going to get together with superlubricity for some logging? I think you will certainly benefit from it. I think I will upgrade my Auto Enginuity for MB after my car arrives.

I kind of feel the same way about K&N. I don't think they filter well enough for the small gain. I had one on my Turbo inlet and I could always see fine dust on the inlet to the turbo. I eventually went with a hi-flow dry filter from Amsoil because I could not go back to the stock intake and mounted it in the bed to get it out of the weather.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...lterInBed1.jpg

avengerboater

Thanks! Superlubricity was going to bring his AutoEnginuity to the dyno, but we never got a chance to log data.

superlubricity

Sorry avenger, I had it with me and completely forgot to bust it out for both of our runs. Next time for sure.

I'll be heading back, possibly as early as Saturday . . . project "SuperPipe" is underway!

avengerboater

Oh, damn...

Vegas_AMG_C63

Glad to hear that you were able to keep the power and be safe !