alqamzi

Most tuners give 2 weeks money back guarantee U don't have to worry abt anything. If u like it u keep if u don't just go and try another tune

propain

As it turns out after speaking with TT he misunderstood when I said K1 as stage 1.

The tune I am getting from them next week is indeed the OE and he mentioned the very same 11rw you did on an E63. Thanks!

Im very excited.

MB_Forever

What you are referring to is incredibly hard to accomplish. In fact, before MHP got banned, they made that very same offer to all tuners out there yet nobody bit. They offered to ship their car to a big event and each tuner would tune the car with same setup and see which is faster but, again, nothing ever happened; it was declined.

A more probable indication, however, is the current set of data available right now (2 to 3 years after the release of the C63); data that points out that on the track, MHP equipped cars have been doing much better than other cars. Consider this: you've got 5 different cars with 5 different drivers in 5 different conditions all achieving the 11.5 mark @ 122+ mph multiple times. So even though the tracks were different, conditions were different, and even drivers were different, the tune/mods performed very consistently. I'm not saying they don't matter, but I'm saying that is a very strong indication of the strength of the product. Other tuners, who are arguably bigger companies (except RennTech), have sold a LOT more than MHP yet they have still not shown ONE single good pass in 3 years. In fact, things are actually worse: some of those cars did run and showed very poor results on the track despite the incredibly high dyno numbers It'd be hard to believe that in 3 years, among all the non-MHP C63 cars, not one single decent driver went to the track in semi-decent conditions.

It'd be interesting to see what type of research you've done and if you have any data or tech specs to share please to support your claim.

EDIT: I am not affiliated with MHP or have even used their products at all, so I'm not a poster boy for them if you were gonna say that I am only analyzing current data set that has been available for at least 2 years now.

propain

As far as poor track results with tunes im sure I can fish up many MHP tunes and show the same data. Every car will perform different. These engines are hand assembled. Some post more HP and gain more from a tune, some post less. Some get better high end, some less. No two cars are the same. You would really need some extensive research to claim MHP is better. Not 1 Miami run with 1 other tuned C63 and call it a win.

My research has been only using dyno sheets and looking at the power band how the gains from each tune. Nothing about MHP's dyno sheets justifies the more expensive tune. As far as track results you would be hard pressed to prove it also. You would need a controlled environment where you know everything about the cars. Same drivers, tires, conditions ect.

I could say the same. How about you show me some tech sheets supporting your claim on how MHP is able to gain better track results when the dyno sheets come back with the same HP/TQ gains on almost every ECU tune on the market. Why does it do better? What do they do different? Trade secret? It sure does cost a hell of a lot more money for an MHP tune. Perceived value maybe?

What makes MHP better? How are they able to achieve better track times while still posting the same dyno numbers as the other competitors.

Other than hype and charging more money for it I still haven't seen any data from the MHP side either.

As far as a show down it would have been cool and put this debate to rest once and for all. On the downside it would have put a few companies out of business as well.

MRAMG1

Without getting into a pissing contest here, I will simply state the fact that " There is a reason that MHP is banned"

Now with that said, go look around the W211 section and you can find out some information about them.

To everyone involved, good luck. And please do some research before spending your money on ANY tune.

propain

Ohhh jeezzz.. Drama... TheRicker and Jcart.. This cant be good!

MRAMG1

LOL

c32AMG-DTM

+1,000,000

Research and due diligence on the part of the consumer is paramount when choosing a tuner.

Has the tuner's dyno claim been backed up with independent dynos?
Has the tuning been track-tested and, if so, what were the results?
Does the tuner test, research, and optimize their tuning on paying customers' vehicles? If so, do you (the potential client) care?
Has the tuner had client motors blow up while running their tuning, and if so, how catastrophic was the damage?
What is the price/performance ratio and is the tuner perceived as a good initial (and long-term) value?
How is the initial and on-going customer service? It's a given that it's good when courting a potential client, but is it still good down the road, and (hopefully never, but unfortunately possibly) in the face of adversity?
What (if any) warranty coverage does the tuner offer? Some tuners offer real warranties to replace lost MB/AMG coverage on the specific parts, others' idea of warranty is offering to put you back to stock before flatbedding the vehicle to the dealer (which likely could be construed as fraud by the individual toward MBUSA, with potentially major fines and/or jailtime).

These (and likely many others) are all important considerations when partnering with a tuner. And you should absolutely search anywhere and everywhere in compiling your data. AFAIK, a replacement engine for a M156 is something ridiculous like $40,000+, plus install. If a catastrophic engine failure occurred on a tuned vehicle, it would actually be worth considering writing the whole thing off as a loss and buying a new C63... crazy as it is to say. Food for thought.

Sorry for the OT, OP: good luck and enjoy your newfound power!

MB_Forever

Not sure that is the case here. Please post those results here. Most of the MHP data I've seen were showing strong positive results when you take the best runs from a track event and compare them to the best runs of other companies track events. In comparison, ALL of the other companies (except for RennTech) were showing almost opposite results (at least on the C63 platform).

Actually AMG enforces a very strict margin of variance. In fact, in one of the brochures, they claimed 99.98% consistency/similarity. And while I do agree some engines will still come out to be "slightly" different than others and that some will inevitably have "slightly" more power than others, I just don't think they can differ as much as they do in terms of the current set of track results - at least for the results up until now.

I'm not claiming MHP is better. I'm stating that based on the current data from the past 3 years, they've had the best track results and that their customers have had even better track results than MHP's own car . By the way, one of RennTech's car did the one mile run and has done extremely well.

Dyno sheets are one of the easiest data to manipulate. And even without manipulation, dyno numbers (naturally) vary greatly between one another perhaps even more than almost any other measure/indicator. For example, I dynoed my car at a Mustang Dyno and it recorded 510 rwhp. You and I both know that it is impossible for a stock E63 to do that since the car is rated at 507 hp at the crank yet the dyno operator was convinced 100% that his machine was right since he claimed he has used it with so many different cars under manufacturer's supervision with extreme accuracy. In comparison, at a Dyno Dynamics, I got 39x rwhp while on a dynojet, my car showed everywhere between 409 to 458 rwhp - all while being 100% stock and I even tried to perform all dynos around the same conditions. In my opinion, Dyno numbers help a little and are fun to look at but are not the best way when judging a car's full potential. I think it is always easier to fix variations that occur on a track than one that occur on a dyno. Going to a track event in decent weather with a decent set of tires would be all one needs. I've been doing it now for a few years

Exactly.... you re-iterated what I stated before: it would be too difficult to accomplish this so will likely NEVER happen unless someone is willing to dump a lot of money into it. But despite the difficulty, MHP still tried multiple times even though each attempt got them further in trouble on this forum. Maybe once you get your tune, you can participate in a track event with another MHP car and do the comparison.

I explained part of that above. Two dyno numbers showing 450 rwhp are not necessarily the same. One of those cars could actually end-up dynoing 390 rwhp on a different dyno. For example, if you see one company claiming their product nets you 440 rwhp and another company claiming that their product nets you 400 rwhp and both companies posted dyno sheets showing their claims, which car would you say is faster? Which product is better? The one that dynoed at 400 rwhp could easily destroy the 440 rwhp one in real-life conditions and vise versa. Here is another example: the lowest-dynoing modded E55 just happens to be the quickest/fastest one in the country. It belongs to Bassn_07 who managed to dyno at 447 rwhp (almost similar to a stock car). There are countless E55s on here showing 540 rwhp and higher yet on the track (and on the road), his car out performs. I would most definitely like a car that dynos very low but performs extremely well in real life.

I don't have the technical background to explain what they do with their tunes or how their tunes make the cars perform better, but to date, they've been performing better than others. Cars behave differently on the dyno than they do on the track for so many reasons, so it is definitely possible to have a tune that would allow the car to perform better on a dyno than it would on a track especially if there is no load on the car and the car is strapped down. I've experienced this first hand with one of my previous vehicles. Also, if you are waiting for a company to post in detail how they modify files and how exactly they perform tunes and how they make their products perform better, then I doubt you'll find one anytime soon

In terms of data, there are plenty of dynos (independently performed by different customers/drivers), track results (also independently performed by different drivers), plenty of videos, high speed runs, 60 to 140 mph (freeway) runs, etc.... that have been posted. In comparison, that is a lot more than what is being posted by others. But again, if you're looking for technical data on how exactly they tune their cars to make it better, then I can tell you that what you're looking for may not happen ever - not by them and not even by other companies

If you look through the older posts, I believe Andy from MHP posted an offer for a show down a few times in the past, but unfortunately he got in trouble for it. Later, even his customers offered the same deal and nobody (so far) seemed interested or serious enough to accept it I guess. Like you mentioned, it would likely put other companies out of business or at the very least create very negative publicity for them. It'd be interesting if someone is willing to participate in a track rental and put it to rest - even if it doesn't involve any MHP products. I personally wouldn't mind seeing Kleemann vs RennTech or Powerchp vs OE Tuning or Eurocharged vs Singh Tunes or any X vs Y. Collecting that type of data is always very helpful and extremely insightful. I know I would do it if I was given the opportunity but I can't since I'm on a different platform. Maybe you can be the first one to step up once your car is tuned

dodger63

Well said!

dodger63

Mthis and I are in the northeast if anyone wants to do any fun comparisons i think this is my second time posting this?

mthis

.

propain

Sounds like fun to me. Ill be getting a tune next week. Just the tune though, I think you guys are modded beyond that. Ill be happy to do some English town runs with ya. Anything my C63 cant beat ill mop you up with my Charger.

Raleighc63

Results Baby! Check out my numbers in the 1/4 mile "tune only" with MT drags and also the Miami Mile run.

I have yet seen a tune only from any other tuner in the high 11's with a trap of 118 mph.

The tune speaks for itself.

dodger63

October 5th, atco let me no if your down I'll be there! No heavy metal please! Next year we will do a heavy metal day!

Raleighc63

That's a Tuesday bro. Can't you go on the weekend?

dodger63

I own a small club! It's hard on a weekend but I could pull something off tell me when! And I'm not sure but I'm sure it's hard to get a rental on a Saturday!

Raleighc63

Actually Kleeman will refund your money but you have to push hard.

Renntech is more of a jerk when you ask for a refund. I returned my tune in Oct 2009 and they charged me a 20% restocking fee.

Neither of those companies claimed dyno results were what they should have been except the MHP tune.

I'm the only on this forum and maybe the only on ever to personally test all 3 major tuner players in this field.

I had to dispute the cc charges with Renntech and are still to this day out a few hundred dollars.

Don't believe anyone on the return policy until you actually try to do the return.

dodger63

What tune you bringing out?

RStevens63

I agree with MBForever 100%. Dyno numbers mean nothing, there is no moving air on the dyno so youre only going to see so much power and torque on one especially if your nat asp. The more power you really make the greater the loss on the dyno will be vs street or track. Also they vary so much from dyno to dyno its not even funny. If you want real data go to the track like Superlube or Dads, or get a GPS box like the mags use. Thats testing with real world conditions and airflow. Take a look at dragtimes, can anyone tell me that after 3 years there just havent been enough C63 owners going to the track to run a non corrected 11 at 122+? Anyone can go to the track and post their results, be that as it may what do you see and who do you see it from? Is it a shop car? Nope. People that have bought the product are doing it themselves, that I love to see. As the OP mentioned these are automatic cars, all you need to do is launch them, and even then if you spin your trap speed will go up not down, so why arent we seeing the same traps out of other tuners? These are not 9 second stick cars, they dont require the same level of skill to pilot and so go out the window tons of those variables. Saying that all tunes are the same is the farthest thing from the truth, I dont care what kind of car youre talking about and I dont think the majority of this or any forum agrees either. I think the evidence is clear and out there for people to see. MPH, MKB and Renntech lead with the 63s and they have the real data to prove it. Congrats to the OP for being happy with a proven product, unfortunately youve got some people that have probably never seen a track with their own eyes pooping in your thread.

Even Money

I'll lay it out there....but it may get stepped on. Aug. 4 and 11 are test days at Pacific Raceways, near Seattle. I'm having my Kleeman K1 reflashed, so we'll see what happens. Weather should be fine this time of year, I've got the drag radials, LSD, so not many excuses!

hhughes1

Regarding the Kleeman vs MHP discussion, my car and Dad's have been going through parallel evolutions during the past two years with most of the work and all of the testing done at the same shop and tracks, usually together. At one point in time Keith had two ECU's one with MKB and another with MHP tunes along with MHP headers. At the same time I had a Kleemann K2 tune and MHP headers. His MHP set up was consistently about 15 to 20 whp more than my hybrid K2/MHP. His trap speeds were about 2 mph higher as well.

Obviously I am happy with my setup although if I had Keith's deep pockets I would get a new tune from Andy. I had the opportunity to track both cars at a private rental but Keith's car had the new heads and a cat back exhaust and his was 2/10’s quicker and 2 mph faster although the margin gets much more difficult when you get well into the 11’s and 122+mph.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRyHsrutIvI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8zDz...eature=related


What can not be debated is that track results, especially trap speeds, tell much more about real power than any dyno. Don’t bother bringing up elevations, temperature, driver error or any other issue that could hamper optimum results. The truth is we only look at the BEST runs that a car has ever made ( we all have crappy ones once in a while) and the C63’s that have logged the pinnacle et’s and trap speeds during the past two years are from a very small group of tuners and are dominated by MHP products especially with the long tube headers.

Does this mean you shouldn’t by another tuner’s product? Of course not, economics factor into the decision but you should be looking for proven results that will put your car in the performance per dollar ratio that you want to be in.

propain

I posted a link up top. K1 tune with MT drags and MHP headers. 11.5 1/4.

That is a sweet tune only 1/4, But without the MT's you would be in the 12's just like every other tune ive seen on this forum.

Maybe the top speed run is better on the MHP tune. Ill give ya that, but honestly, I dont care about that. I live my life 1/4 mile a time time.. lol

propain

Ahh a post with some data. Thank you.

I really havent looked into MHP as of yet. I dont even know how much more expensive they are. I do know they cost more though. I also dont think I could get a MHP tune in NY. Is it a west coast thing only?

How much is a MHP tune?

Edit: Never mind I searched the price. $2500. About double the price. I do notice though that they do a TCU tune along with the ECU tune. Couldnt that be where the gains are being seen?

Sincity

Could it be that K2 is optimized for the Kleemann manifolds and not LTs? Has the Kleemann tune (K1/K2) evolved at all since introduction?