Hedge-Hog

Ok,

So I'm not the best driver out there but I have been chasing cones for a while now. I took the car out for the second time to an autox this past weekend. I gotta say this car really disappointed me in this environment. While I reallly love the way the car behaves on the road (way more fun than, say, an E92 M3) it felt really horrible in a quick-transient venue.

Understeer was way worse than I can imagine...I tried to brake as earlier as I can and go in slow and smooth but it either crawls threw or does mid-corner plows. The girth really shows on this thing...braking/turning...just not there.

Lastly, I'm pretty sure I completely disabled the ESP (set to OFF, not SPORT). Does it still intervene if I leave it in S mode? Or do I have to go straight to M? I felt it cutting on WOT and a bit on turns.

I'm not trying to bag on the car since I still love it for the other 99.9% of the time but definitely brought a knife to a gunfight.

Anyone else try to autox their C63?

Cheers,
-H

Dr_jitsu

No, autoX's don't replicate the kind of driving I see here in Houston, where the highway are ginourmous 5 laners on each side and have huge sweepers where I can run 150 in my GT2 and probably 130 or so in my C63.

I like tracks like TWS...even MSR is way to petite for my tastes, although they have a phenomenal go Kart tracks.

shardul

iTrader: (1)

i think auto xing is too tight for the c63. Probably do dont even get past 3rd gear.

Hans Delbruck

Haven't autocrossed but I have taken it on a road course... however that road course didn't have tight turns like at AX. My impression of the car in tight turns is yeah... it pushes bigtime mid-corner. It seems like you'd have to use the throttle to kick the rear out/rotate the car. With ESP off it shouldn't be cutting in at all; you should be able to spin it all the way around like Clarkson did on Top Gear.

I think with all the weight and big power, it is just going to be difficult to precisely control the C63 on a tight course. You'd probably need to be an expert drifter to get it done... and then say 'bye' to your tires after one day!

BTW I was pretty impressed with the C63 on a road course. It needs more negative camber in the front though.

ps How many cones did you take out?

Newzchspy

Just the Pointer Cones!!!!

SMP

Most cars, especially for the US market have understeer maximum dialed in from the factory. Most drivers are more comfortable with a car that understeers since it's much easier to control than oversteer. Whether it's a Mercedes (except CLK63 BS), Porsche (except GT2/GT2RS, GT3/GT3RS) or any M car. I can't stand understeer, so I set up my cars for oversteer. It can range from a different alignment to changing out suspension components. However, you'll have to live with those settings when you're not at the track, rain or shine. It will be quite twitchy with all that torque and not as relaxed to drive anymore. You'll go through front tires at the same rate as the rears. Like with everything in life, there is a compromise to be made.

Hedge-Hog

I was actually clean all day...surprising.

But I was surprised that the E46 M3 was quite a bit better on transient even though it also exhibited a lot of understeer. I don't think I would bother doing track days on this car...while the power is intoxicating, lumbering something this large around is prolly not ideal.

For the record, I upped the tires to 245F and 275R...which helped the power on conditions a bit but exacerbated the understeering.

Now that I did some digging, the ESP was supposed to be completely disabled. Wonder why it kept cutting in even when off.

Cheers,
-H

Hedge-Hog

I understand the pre-dialed in understeer tendencies as a safety precaution. But I didn't expect THIS much of it in this class of car. It almost felt like a FWD. IIRC, Porsche's reason is really because of the lack of weight up front but one can get the front to bite by trail-braking and using different line. Although, I hear the Boxster/Cayman are quite neutral. My previous car was an E46 M3 and while it does have bad understeer, it was mostly turn-in. That can easily be cured by altering driving methods and/or camber plates.

Has anyone tried left-foot braking to help this? I know the Bimmer's DBW would go into limp mode if one brakes and throttle at the same time.

-H

SMP

No left foot braking, the car is just going to bog down. I had many Porsche's and M's, but the only Mercedes that handles well out of the box is a CLK63 BS. But it still needed some work at the suspension to get it where I wanted it to be after I've been on a road course. Looks like we have some similar taste in cars, as I also owned an E46 M3 and a Cayenne. Like you said, they all understeer.

The C63 was never designed to be a great handling car. You need to change out a few components and it can be a decent track car.

amdeutsch

OK, for AX your best bet would be to up the pressure up front by quite a bit. You want to avoid rolling over onto the side wall during turns.
Look at your tires and see if you can find little triangles near the top of the sidewall, bottom of the tread. My best guess, not knowing the car, would be to have the fronts be about 5 psi higher than the rears. Put some chalk right onto the tread at that triangle and cover it over the sidewall. Or look at the triangle and see if you wore the tip.
Now run your AX. Check to see how much you've worn by seeing the missing chalk. Adjust accordingly til you no longer hit the tip of the triangle, front and rear. Now you should be set up.

Honestly I'm somewhat surprised that the instructors at the AX didn't help you with setting up your car.

Also keep a sprayer full of water at your station for those hot days. After a run spray it on your tires. It helps with keeping them cool and stable between runs.

HTH

reserved

That is so absolutely true. Lawyers are even taking over car design in this country

Dr_jitsu

This car has pretty heavy understeer...that protects MB from the tendency of your average driver to hit the brakes when sliding. Me, I take the opportunity to text message

Hedge-Hog

Thx for the tips but I'm a regular autoxer...it's just my 2nd time with the C63. My regular autox car is an SSM-prep car so I'm just a bit spoiled. Anyhoo, the tires weren't rolling over. I checked after every run. In my first event (last year), I ran 45psi fron and 48psi rear but found that it actually gripped less. So I ran stock pressures this time around.

BTW, don't think street tires over heat on autox...at least not the non-crazy grips ones (like RE11). At least not in my experience. In fact, up in Vancouver, I've yet to overheat my V710.

I'm just curious to see what others think after their autox experience. Pretty sure it's the wrong car for this type of event but having a/c and a radio for the drive home sure beats sweating it out in that other car.

Cheers,
-H

amdeutsch

Looking at the pressures you posted as well as the fact that OEM pressures also are bias towards the rear I suggest that you make sure you have a front bias pressure setup. That will help with the understeer. Try it and report back.
In regards to tire heat. The goal is to keep your tires stable so you have the same conditions run after run. That way it allows you to play with pressures to get the handling set up the way you want.

RLx02

eh...let the small nimble cars stick to the cones and take the amg's out to the full size big boy tracks

MikeS54

I took my car to auto cross ones and have been to couple of track days already. This car is probably one of the worst sports cars for auto cross. The car is quiet heavy and you can't really fit big tires on this car.

On the track though our car is very predictable and very easy car to learn on. I bought this car thinking that it will be uncontrollable and unpredictable on the track but turned out to be quiet the opposite.

I personally find autocross a bit pointless. Autocross is designed for UNDERPOWERED cars with HUGE tires and unless your car very well setup just for autocross you won't get a very impressive time. That being said, many of these autocross cars will only be fast on an autocross play ground and pretty damn slow anywhere else.

amdeutsch

Tell that the Porsche crowd.

Mort

Aren't they already aware of it???






























LOL.....

Hedge-Hog

Hey, hey...no need to pit track against autox. Different types of fun, imo. But it's good to know that the C63 is surprising good on a track...I was thinking unless it's a smooth power track like Portland, this car may not be so happy. Not to mention the mass may eat brakes.

As I said, I had not expected this to be an FTD door-slammer but I was definitely surprised how out of its element this car became in an autox environment.

gravedgr

At the AMG Driving Academy we took the little SLK55 around the auto-x course and it did pretty well. I would not want to do it in my C63.

chief63

Don't use S mode when at the track or autox, its not optimal at all, especially because you need to downshift and turn the car in.

Stay with big long tracks. The C63 is sick on the straights, good braking for the weight but Civics will catch up to you during corners. The type of track you choose will pretty much decide how fast you'll be, driving skills put aside obviously.

Hedge-Hog

Thx for all the replies...I still dig this car as a DD but there's no need to pump up its track abilities since I probably will never track this car. I only took it out to chase cones because I had an itch and it's so simple just to haul myself there for a bit of fun. For track (and more serious autoxing), I'll take my dedicated toy....won't feel as bad if I damage that vs wrecking a daily.

Cheers.

-H

Boost Gomez

I fear I might be disappointed if I track the C63 in stock form, so until it is appropriately modded (LSD, tires, coilovers, tune, headers) I will stick to the GT-R and ZR1 for track use.

chief63

Actually if the weather is cool, a stock C63 will do very good, but still not as good as a GTR or ZR1, these are probably the top 2 track cars ever lol

JM

I m thinking you went to the VCMC auto cross days?

This car is really fun on the track but not as good on our local track because it's hard on the brakes and we dot get enough speed as well!