Autox'd the C63
#1
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2009 C63 AMG
Autox'd the C63
Ok,
So I'm not the best driver out there but I have been chasing cones for a while now. I took the car out for the second time to an autox this past weekend. I gotta say this car really disappointed me in this environment. While I reallly love the way the car behaves on the road (way more fun than, say, an E92 M3) it felt really horrible in a quick-transient venue.
Understeer was way worse than I can imagine...I tried to brake as earlier as I can and go in slow and smooth but it either crawls threw or does mid-corner plows. The girth really shows on this thing...braking/turning...just not there.
Lastly, I'm pretty sure I completely disabled the ESP (set to OFF, not SPORT). Does it still intervene if I leave it in S mode? Or do I have to go straight to M? I felt it cutting on WOT and a bit on turns.
I'm not trying to bag on the car since I still love it for the other 99.9% of the time but definitely brought a knife to a gunfight.
Anyone else try to autox their C63?
Cheers,
-H
So I'm not the best driver out there but I have been chasing cones for a while now. I took the car out for the second time to an autox this past weekend. I gotta say this car really disappointed me in this environment. While I reallly love the way the car behaves on the road (way more fun than, say, an E92 M3) it felt really horrible in a quick-transient venue.
Understeer was way worse than I can imagine...I tried to brake as earlier as I can and go in slow and smooth but it either crawls threw or does mid-corner plows. The girth really shows on this thing...braking/turning...just not there.
Lastly, I'm pretty sure I completely disabled the ESP (set to OFF, not SPORT). Does it still intervene if I leave it in S mode? Or do I have to go straight to M? I felt it cutting on WOT and a bit on turns.
I'm not trying to bag on the car since I still love it for the other 99.9% of the time but definitely brought a knife to a gunfight.
Anyone else try to autox their C63?
Cheers,
-H
#2
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2009 E350, 2002 GT2, 2004 SC M3, 2010 C63
No, autoX's don't replicate the kind of driving I see here in Houston, where the highway are ginourmous 5 laners on each side and have huge sweepers where I can run 150 in my GT2 and probably 130 or so in my C63.
I like tracks like TWS...even MSR is way to petite for my tastes, although they have a phenomenal go Kart tracks.
I like tracks like TWS...even MSR is way to petite for my tastes, although they have a phenomenal go Kart tracks.
#4
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Haven't autocrossed but I have taken it on a road course... however that road course didn't have tight turns like at AX. My impression of the car in tight turns is yeah... it pushes bigtime mid-corner. It seems like you'd have to use the throttle to kick the rear out/rotate the car. With ESP off it shouldn't be cutting in at all; you should be able to spin it all the way around like Clarkson did on Top Gear.
I think with all the weight and big power, it is just going to be difficult to precisely control the C63 on a tight course. You'd probably need to be an expert drifter to get it done... and then say 'bye' to your tires after one day!
BTW I was pretty impressed with the C63 on a road course. It needs more negative camber in the front though.
ps How many cones did you take out?
I think with all the weight and big power, it is just going to be difficult to precisely control the C63 on a tight course. You'd probably need to be an expert drifter to get it done... and then say 'bye' to your tires after one day!
BTW I was pretty impressed with the C63 on a road course. It needs more negative camber in the front though.
ps How many cones did you take out?
Last edited by Hans Delbruck; 07-30-2010 at 05:05 PM.
#5
Haven't autocrossed but I have taken it on a road course... however that road course didn't have tight turns like at AX. My impression of the car in tight turns is yeah... it pushes bigtime mid-corner. It seems like you'd have to use the throttle to kick the rear out/rotate the car. With ESP off it shouldn't be cutting in at all; you should be able to spin it all the way around like Clarkson did on Top Gear.
I think with all the weight and big power, it is just going to be difficult to precisely control the C63 on a tight course. You'd probably need to be an expert drifter to get it done... and then say 'bye' to your tires after one day!
BTW I was pretty impressed with the C63 on a road course. It needs more negative camber in the front though.
ps How many cones did you take out?
I think with all the weight and big power, it is just going to be difficult to precisely control the C63 on a tight course. You'd probably need to be an expert drifter to get it done... and then say 'bye' to your tires after one day!
BTW I was pretty impressed with the C63 on a road course. It needs more negative camber in the front though.
ps How many cones did you take out?
Just the Pointer Cones!!!!
#6
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Most cars, especially for the US market have understeer maximum dialed in from the factory. Most drivers are more comfortable with a car that understeers since it's much easier to control than oversteer. Whether it's a Mercedes (except CLK63 BS), Porsche (except GT2/GT2RS, GT3/GT3RS) or any M car. I can't stand understeer, so I set up my cars for oversteer. It can range from a different alignment to changing out suspension components. However, you'll have to live with those settings when you're not at the track, rain or shine. It will be quite twitchy with all that torque and not as relaxed to drive anymore. You'll go through front tires at the same rate as the rears. Like with everything in life, there is a compromise to be made.
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2009 C63 AMG
I was actually clean all day...surprising.
But I was surprised that the E46 M3 was quite a bit better on transient even though it also exhibited a lot of understeer. I don't think I would bother doing track days on this car...while the power is intoxicating, lumbering something this large around is prolly not ideal.
For the record, I upped the tires to 245F and 275R...which helped the power on conditions a bit but exacerbated the understeering.
Now that I did some digging, the ESP was supposed to be completely disabled. Wonder why it kept cutting in even when off.
Cheers,
-H
But I was surprised that the E46 M3 was quite a bit better on transient even though it also exhibited a lot of understeer. I don't think I would bother doing track days on this car...while the power is intoxicating, lumbering something this large around is prolly not ideal.
For the record, I upped the tires to 245F and 275R...which helped the power on conditions a bit but exacerbated the understeering.
Now that I did some digging, the ESP was supposed to be completely disabled. Wonder why it kept cutting in even when off.
Cheers,
-H
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2009 C63 AMG
Most cars, especially for the US market have understeer maximum dialed in from the factory. Most drivers are more comfortable with a car that understeers since it's much easier to control than oversteer. Whether it's a Mercedes (except CLK63 BS), Porsche (except GT2/GT2RS, GT3/GT3RS) or any M car. I can't stand understeer, so I set up my cars for oversteer. It can range from a different alignment to changing out suspension components. However, you'll have to live with those settings when you're not at the track, rain or shine. It will be quite twitchy with all that torque and not as relaxed to drive anymore. You'll go through front tires at the same rate as the rears. Like with everything in life, there is a compromise to be made.
Has anyone tried left-foot braking to help this? I know the Bimmer's DBW would go into limp mode if one brakes and throttle at the same time.
-H
#9
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I understand the pre-dialed in understeer tendencies as a safety precaution. But I didn't expect THIS much of it in this class of car. It almost felt like a FWD. IIRC, Porsche's reason is really because of the lack of weight up front but one can get the front to bite by trail-braking and using different line. Although, I hear the Boxster/Cayman are quite neutral. My previous car was an E46 M3 and while it does have bad understeer, it was mostly turn-in. That can easily be cured by altering driving methods and/or camber plates.
Has anyone tried left-foot braking to help this? I know the Bimmer's DBW would go into limp mode if one brakes and throttle at the same time.
-H
Has anyone tried left-foot braking to help this? I know the Bimmer's DBW would go into limp mode if one brakes and throttle at the same time.
-H
The C63 was never designed to be a great handling car. You need to change out a few components and it can be a decent track car.
#10
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OK, for AX your best bet would be to up the pressure up front by quite a bit. You want to avoid rolling over onto the side wall during turns.
Look at your tires and see if you can find little triangles near the top of the sidewall, bottom of the tread. My best guess, not knowing the car, would be to have the fronts be about 5 psi higher than the rears. Put some chalk right onto the tread at that triangle and cover it over the sidewall. Or look at the triangle and see if you wore the tip.
Now run your AX. Check to see how much you've worn by seeing the missing chalk. Adjust accordingly til you no longer hit the tip of the triangle, front and rear. Now you should be set up.
Honestly I'm somewhat surprised that the instructors at the AX didn't help you with setting up your car.
Also keep a sprayer full of water at your station for those hot days. After a run spray it on your tires. It helps with keeping them cool and stable between runs.
HTH
Look at your tires and see if you can find little triangles near the top of the sidewall, bottom of the tread. My best guess, not knowing the car, would be to have the fronts be about 5 psi higher than the rears. Put some chalk right onto the tread at that triangle and cover it over the sidewall. Or look at the triangle and see if you wore the tip.
Now run your AX. Check to see how much you've worn by seeing the missing chalk. Adjust accordingly til you no longer hit the tip of the triangle, front and rear. Now you should be set up.
Honestly I'm somewhat surprised that the instructors at the AX didn't help you with setting up your car.
Also keep a sprayer full of water at your station for those hot days. After a run spray it on your tires. It helps with keeping them cool and stable between runs.
HTH
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clk 500 (wifey's); 350Z roadster (daily driver); 350Z coupe (track car)
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2009 E350, 2002 GT2, 2004 SC M3, 2010 C63
This car has pretty heavy understeer...that protects MB from the tendency of your average driver to hit the brakes when sliding. Me, I take the opportunity to text message
#13
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Thx for the tips but I'm a regular autoxer...it's just my 2nd time with the C63. My regular autox car is an SSM-prep car so I'm just a bit spoiled. Anyhoo, the tires weren't rolling over. I checked after every run. In my first event (last year), I ran 45psi fron and 48psi rear but found that it actually gripped less. So I ran stock pressures this time around.
BTW, don't think street tires over heat on autox...at least not the non-crazy grips ones (like RE11). At least not in my experience. In fact, up in Vancouver, I've yet to overheat my V710.
I'm just curious to see what others think after their autox experience. Pretty sure it's the wrong car for this type of event but having a/c and a radio for the drive home sure beats sweating it out in that other car.
Cheers,
-H
BTW, don't think street tires over heat on autox...at least not the non-crazy grips ones (like RE11). At least not in my experience. In fact, up in Vancouver, I've yet to overheat my V710.
I'm just curious to see what others think after their autox experience. Pretty sure it's the wrong car for this type of event but having a/c and a radio for the drive home sure beats sweating it out in that other car.
Cheers,
-H
OK, for AX your best bet would be to up the pressure up front by quite a bit. You want to avoid rolling over onto the side wall during turns.
Look at your tires and see if you can find little triangles near the top of the sidewall, bottom of the tread. My best guess, not knowing the car, would be to have the fronts be about 5 psi higher than the rears. Put some chalk right onto the tread at that triangle and cover it over the sidewall. Or look at the triangle and see if you wore the tip.
Now run your AX. Check to see how much you've worn by seeing the missing chalk. Adjust accordingly til you no longer hit the tip of the triangle, front and rear. Now you should be set up.
Honestly I'm somewhat surprised that the instructors at the AX didn't help you with setting up your car.
Also keep a sprayer full of water at your station for those hot days. After a run spray it on your tires. It helps with keeping them cool and stable between runs.
HTH
Look at your tires and see if you can find little triangles near the top of the sidewall, bottom of the tread. My best guess, not knowing the car, would be to have the fronts be about 5 psi higher than the rears. Put some chalk right onto the tread at that triangle and cover it over the sidewall. Or look at the triangle and see if you wore the tip.
Now run your AX. Check to see how much you've worn by seeing the missing chalk. Adjust accordingly til you no longer hit the tip of the triangle, front and rear. Now you should be set up.
Honestly I'm somewhat surprised that the instructors at the AX didn't help you with setting up your car.
Also keep a sprayer full of water at your station for those hot days. After a run spray it on your tires. It helps with keeping them cool and stable between runs.
HTH
#14
Administrator
Thx for the tips but I'm a regular autoxer...it's just my 2nd time with the C63. My regular autox car is an SSM-prep car so I'm just a bit spoiled. Anyhoo, the tires weren't rolling over. I checked after every run. In my first event (last year), I ran 45psi fron and 48psi rear but found that it actually gripped less. So I ran stock pressures this time around.
BTW, don't think street tires over heat on autox...at least not the non-crazy grips ones (like RE11). At least not in my experience. In fact, up in Vancouver, I've yet to overheat my V710.
I'm just curious to see what others think after their autox experience. Pretty sure it's the wrong car for this type of event but having a/c and a radio for the drive home sure beats sweating it out in that other car.
Cheers,
-H
BTW, don't think street tires over heat on autox...at least not the non-crazy grips ones (like RE11). At least not in my experience. In fact, up in Vancouver, I've yet to overheat my V710.
I'm just curious to see what others think after their autox experience. Pretty sure it's the wrong car for this type of event but having a/c and a radio for the drive home sure beats sweating it out in that other car.
Cheers,
-H
In regards to tire heat. The goal is to keep your tires stable so you have the same conditions run after run. That way it allows you to play with pressures to get the handling set up the way you want.
#16
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C63 AMG
I took my car to auto cross ones and have been to couple of track days already. This car is probably one of the worst sports cars for auto cross. The car is quiet heavy and you can't really fit big tires on this car.
On the track though our car is very predictable and very easy car to learn on. I bought this car thinking that it will be uncontrollable and unpredictable on the track but turned out to be quiet the opposite.
I personally find autocross a bit pointless. Autocross is designed for UNDERPOWERED cars with HUGE tires and unless your car very well setup just for autocross you won't get a very impressive time. That being said, many of these autocross cars will only be fast on an autocross play ground and pretty damn slow anywhere else.
On the track though our car is very predictable and very easy car to learn on. I bought this car thinking that it will be uncontrollable and unpredictable on the track but turned out to be quiet the opposite.
I personally find autocross a bit pointless. Autocross is designed for UNDERPOWERED cars with HUGE tires and unless your car very well setup just for autocross you won't get a very impressive time. That being said, many of these autocross cars will only be fast on an autocross play ground and pretty damn slow anywhere else.
#17
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I took my car to auto cross ones and have been to couple of track days already. This car is probably one of the worst sports cars for auto cross. The car is quiet heavy and you can't really fit big tires on this car.
On the track though our car is very predictable and very easy car to learn on. I bought this car thinking that it will be uncontrollable and unpredictable on the track but turned out to be quiet the opposite.
I personally find autocross a bit pointless. Autocross is designed for UNDERPOWERED cars with HUGE tires and unless your car very well setup just for autocross you won't get a very impressive time. That being said, many of these autocross cars will only be fast on an autocross play ground and pretty damn slow anywhere else.
On the track though our car is very predictable and very easy car to learn on. I bought this car thinking that it will be uncontrollable and unpredictable on the track but turned out to be quiet the opposite.
I personally find autocross a bit pointless. Autocross is designed for UNDERPOWERED cars with HUGE tires and unless your car very well setup just for autocross you won't get a very impressive time. That being said, many of these autocross cars will only be fast on an autocross play ground and pretty damn slow anywhere else.
Tell that the Porsche crowd.
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2009 C63 AMG
Hey, hey...no need to pit track against autox. Different types of fun, imo. But it's good to know that the C63 is surprising good on a track...I was thinking unless it's a smooth power track like Portland, this car may not be so happy. Not to mention the mass may eat brakes.
As I said, I had not expected this to be an FTD door-slammer but I was definitely surprised how out of its element this car became in an autox environment.
As I said, I had not expected this to be an FTD door-slammer but I was definitely surprised how out of its element this car became in an autox environment.
#21
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2021 Taycan Turbo, 2018 Radical SR3, 2021 Lincoln Aviator
Don't use S mode when at the track or autox, its not optimal at all, especially because you need to downshift and turn the car in.
Stay with big long tracks. The C63 is sick on the straights, good braking for the weight but Civics will catch up to you during corners. The type of track you choose will pretty much decide how fast you'll be, driving skills put aside obviously.
Stay with big long tracks. The C63 is sick on the straights, good braking for the weight but Civics will catch up to you during corners. The type of track you choose will pretty much decide how fast you'll be, driving skills put aside obviously.
#22
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2009 C63 AMG
Thx for all the replies...I still dig this car as a DD but there's no need to pump up its track abilities since I probably will never track this car. I only took it out to chase cones because I had an itch and it's so simple just to haul myself there for a bit of fun. For track (and more serious autoxing), I'll take my dedicated toy....won't feel as bad if I damage that vs wrecking a daily.
Cheers.
-H
Cheers.
-H
#23
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C63 AMG
I fear I might be disappointed if I track the C63 in stock form, so until it is appropriately modded (LSD, tires, coilovers, tune, headers) I will stick to the GT-R and ZR1 for track use.
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Actually if the weather is cool, a stock C63 will do very good, but still not as good as a GTR or ZR1, these are probably the top 2 track cars ever lol
#25
I m thinking you went to the VCMC auto cross days?
This car is really fun on the track but not as good on our local track because it's hard on the brakes and we dot get enough speed as well!
This car is really fun on the track but not as good on our local track because it's hard on the brakes and we dot get enough speed as well!