dleung22

Hey all,

On the board we've talked and reviewed on how GOOD the aftermarket tunes have been for our cars. But how about the negatives? How has the longetivity been on our cars? Has there really been enough R&D put into these tunes for it to last for an extended number of years? say 6-8 yrs?

As for an owner that has a stock car right now, just want to hear both sides of the feedback!

Please chime in everyone!

Sincity

A C63 tune is basically removing the detune to original factory specs. Well, maybe a few more HPs than factory.

jafores

I have had a tune on my 63 for about 8 mos so far no issues at all

rory breaker

I dont think this answers the question, nor do I think it's accurate. Because the 63 base platform can make more HP, doesnt mean the C63 motor in particular was configured to make that power safely. I'm sure someone who has broken down these motors could tell us the exact differences between a C63 drivetrain (remember its not just the motor that you need to look at regarding longevity) and say an E63 or S63. That way you could determine if it is indeed just a tune.

We also would need to know if a Eurocharged tune, for example (use that because that guys active and can maybe chime in to confirm) is literally a carbon copy of an E63 or S63 tune.

One cant say its just "removing the detune" unless that's really what it is...just because HP numbers are similar and logically it makes sense doesnt mean that's what it is. I dont know the answer, but I am curious, so would like to get to the meat of it.

propain

Some good points. Unless MB is tuning the car then its still an aftermarket tune. One that might not be done within the limits of the C63 drivetrain and engine.

However, I dont think its as complicated as your making it. I think the tuner guys have "cracked" the differences between the stock 500+ HP 6.2l and the detuned version. They simply are "Fixing" what was intentionally detuned. Beyond that they have figured out ways of getting better results. Those better results are where you are pusing the limits beyond what MB had in mind for its engine and drivetrain and those results are where long term effects need to be studied.

Its like overclocking a CPU. Sure it will run it and if you take all the precautions cooling it and keeping it within limits you wont see any problems in the short term, but overall the life of the chip is degraded because it is performing outside of its operational limits.

Dark_Knight

is it better to "tune" a P31 or reg motor, are there a gains available if you already have the P31?

Even Money

Not having same results as others w the k1. Not azure why except maybe just bad tune. My last dyno plot isn't very smooth even w smoothing at 5. I don't believe I should be 20 whp short due to variances in motors. They are too well built for that.

vkam

Extra torque does not come for free in K2, fuel gauge going down faster now.

rory breaker

Key phrase in this is "I think" - I get what we are all assuming, but the fact is, we dont know. Hopefully someone who has first hand experience with the actual source of these tunes and the specs within the factory E63/S63 maps can confirm.

Dr_jitsu

The drive-train, or the tranny, in the C63 is just as strong as the CLK Black (to my understanding) so tuning the C63 to the power level of the Black should not present drive-train problems.

Now when you start going aftermarket headers and extensive use us other bolt ons I would be concerned.

Not sure if the highway shut down was tune related, but my car now has 1K on her and I ran her all out last night on the highway and she was flawless.

propain

There is a difference with "thinking" without a clue and "thinking" with common sense.

Obviously the 6.2l engine is capable of the healthy HP the after market tunes unlock. How they got there is most likely the same way the factory did. I don't need someone to spell it out for me to understand it.

Beyond the factory specs however is the real subject. In unlocking beyond what the ML63 (503HP stock I think) and the SL63 (518HP stock). How do they get there and are there any negative effects. (cells, drive train stress ect)


But really this is just something to talk about. The 6.2l engine is capable of a lot of power far beyond what a simple ECU tune will do. You are really just letting the engine get more fuel and air and in some tunes messing with the shift points a bit to increase some torque.

rory breaker

All assumptions.

I have had a fully programmable standalone ECU and have sat and watched as a tuner altered maps cell by cell - to generalize that as "letting the engine get more fuel and air in" is, well kind of talking without a clue. In some cases you may be leaning it out at certain RPMs, in other you may be changing timing, it could be anything. We can all sit back and generally speak in "common sense" and say "yeah they advanced some timing there and leaned it out a bit in mid-RPM's and its probably like the E63 map" but in the end, we're just talking out of our asses.

Waiting for someone who has built a tune for these cars to chime in - someone who has seen the factory C63/E63/S63 maps and understands the differences - it would benefit all of us to learn about the differences and understand if the tunes that these companies offer are just mirroring them, or are they different in some way and if so, how and why?

c32AMG-DTM

I think a lot of people would like to see exactly that. Problem is, the tuners we know typically don't "build a tune for these cars" - AFAIK, they usually source base maps and alter them to their own unique tuning preferences and philosophy. Some are on the more conservative end of the spectrum, some are more aggressive... but in the end they're basically editing what someone else built. The guys who are actually writing code for these maps aren't frequent posters on car forums, from what I gather... which could be totally incorrect, who knows?

Sincity

I spoke with a tuner on the phone who is also a sponsor here on the board about the tunes last year. He request that I do not quote his name and that was what prompted me to start my "Truth about tunes" thread from last year. He did hint/tell me about the torque maps (saying they are already there) and how they are manipulated to get their result. I'm sure that was not the only thing they changed, but basically told me that there wasn't much to it. He is the actual programmer that manipulated the maps. Beyond that, he lost me.

propain

Im actually not talking without a clue. A tiny bit of research would tell you they artificially limit the throttle body to open only 50% on the C63. With that tiny bit of knowledge one could use common sense to deduce that a tune opens the throttle body to 80% like the other 6.2l engines that produce more power than the C63.

They also state they change the air filters out with K&N or others letting the engine breath better. They also do a charcoal delete, again letting the engine get more air.

hmmmm.. sounds like fuel and air to me.

Beyond that your getting into TCU tuning of which I admit I have no clue.

Like I said, you are over thinking it. Either you have never built an engine in your life or your just being argumentative. Knowing your post history and how thick headed you are I think Ive figured that one out with common sense as well.

rory breaker

c32 & sincity - interesting - maybe someone will chime in who has some actual experience with these tunes to shed some light. As you guys say, beyond our own assumptions, it would be great to get some concrete info.

propain

Thinking about doing a tune on your lease or just curious?


Mthis and Dads would be two people who would be able to answer most of these questions though. They have both done extensive work to their C63's.

You might be hard pressed for a company to come on here and give away a full description on how they get the power they do. MHP says they have the best ECU tune on the market. Im sure they wont chime in and tell us all how they do it.

Good luck in your quest though.

chief63

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't MHP banned from this board? I don't really remember why.

propain

They are banned. Not sure why either. I saw a post with Jcart, Thericker and someone from MHP. To long to read but I think it had something to do with it.

Mthis and Dad's both use MHP though.

rory breaker

Just curious - nice to see some knowledge posted around here instead of assumptions. More than likely won't tune mine, the whole reason I leased it was to have zero worries about warranty, resell, etc and dont plan on losing that freedom anytime soon. Maybe someone with some real experience will chime in.

RNS-11Z

As mentioned, there are tunes and then there are tunes. I know with my tuner, he can adjust the torque tables and raise the rev limit and shift points. below is a picture, a screenshot showing a Throttle Hang map which is something not normally used in programming AMG's but stops the engine wanting to keep going for that brief moment when you lift off the throttle. Having the ability to custom map the software allows for small nuance changes like this to be carried out.
A quick way to clarify 'who is who in the zoo' is to ask for a specific modification when having your AMG tuned - such as the rev limiter moved 200rpm. This is simple if the tuner is altering the software themselves or using a generic off the shelf download



apparently this version is one of the variants of "optimaler Zündwinkel" - optimum firing angle,
misdefined with one too many rows (incorrect dimensions) & scaling factor.

the picture screen shot below is another definition of it



if its not an off the shelf tune, your tuner should be able to adjust any of the following:

Left foot braking enable (by percent %)

Speed limit (pick your desired speed or disable)

Rev limit (all limitions on engine speed, for various conditions can be individually adjusted)

RSA patch for OBD programing

All fault codes and be enabled / disabled and functions relating to all sensors can be turned off.

Engine temp for warm engine (for cold thermo etc)

Exhaust gas temppreture limitaion (function control, table for activation)


Throttle related
-----------------
Throttle valve target angle 1 %
Throttle valve target angle 2 % (there are two throttle bodies inside the sliding manifold)
Setpoint limit on throttle angle (rpm)
Throttle valve target angle (mass air flow)
Max airmass flow (throttle angle)
Function imposed maximum throttle setpoint angle
chracteristic curve for maximum torque (2 variants)
Disable certain functions for torque limitation via throttle
Maimum intake plenum pressure before throttle limitation
Maximum relative filling (intake air temp)
Max throttle opening @ full throttle (VL) via engine rpm.

Ignition related
-----------------
Optimal ignition angle (relative filling / engine speed) (multiple variants for various conditions)
base ignition angle (relative filling / engine speed) all variants
Starting ignition angle
ignition reduction (intake air temp)
minimum permissable firing angle
Knock sensor sensitivity

Camshaft control
----------------
Intake camshaft timing
Exhaust camshaft timing
models for incylinder EGR

Torque model
--------------
Maximum relative filling (multiple variants)
Characteristic for calculating target filling
Characteristic for intake manifold effiency
Function monitoring for torque control (all variants)
Optimum motor torque characteristic
Torque control via spark & throttle opening.
driver pedal linearity
chracteristic Throttle response

fuel related
---------------
airfuel ratio (cataylst enrichment,running limits, coldstart, injector scaling factor, enrichment by calculated exhaust gas temp / calculated manifold temp)
lambda limits (by temp, deactiviation / activation limits)

(ps: i have got the following info from fellow australian amg tuners)

rory breaker

Great post - really good information - doesnt tell us specifically what the tunes are comprised of, but certainly gives those folks who think they have a clue about tuning a bit of perspective.

If Eurocharged or whoever else is sitting there modifying maps like this to find an ideal tune, I would certainly be interested to understand their thought process around what makes their tune better or "safer" (quoted purposely) than others. Back in the day tuners used to share their philosophy on tuning and one could compare "x" tuner vs "y" tuner based upon how aggressive they were in a given area - x may believe one philosophy on ignition timing holds the key to high RPM power whereas another may attribute it all to something else.