AlbertM

I sent the pictures of the dent to Cory @ Kleemann for review. His response was: "Should not cause any problems". So, anyway, pics tell the story. The Header was not a fit for W212 body.

SonnyakaPig

Do you know if the steering shaft hitting the headers could end up being a safety issue? Not a problem anymore. But, perhaps the large dent was a fix for the shaft and headers touching but I wonder who decides what is a large enough safety margin in that circumstance? And wouldn't it make more sense to err on the side of caution and conclude the header to not be an appropriate fit for W212 and abort the mission rather than throw spagetti at the wall sort of thing?

AlbertM

Completely agreed, that is why the whole setup made me feel really nervous and uncomfortable. Here is the pic of the comparison, meaning what replaced the primary cats from the stock manifold down (@ TTM)

SonnyakaPig

Yeah, a bit of a difference.

propain

After seeing these pictures......


For Future Reference: 2MM




The definition of "Dimple" should also be looked up next time.


I can only take this as Albert being taken advantage of a little bit. RPM tried to make it work. They did what they had to get it in the car. But to say "They bolted right in" and then "2MM dimple" after shows a bit of shadyness. Should have just told the truth from the beginning.

The effort was very gracious by Cory and Kleeman to give him the Manifolds for free and that he only had to pay for the labor. But when you had to do that to get it done it should have been aborted. Sadly a nice jesture was overshadowed by this.

Hard to say what kind of losses were created by that dent but the fact that he had no gains and even some loss in power on the Dyno could tell the tale.

Oh well, experiment failed. Better luck next time. I hope Albert gets some type of compensation. Glad your back to normal now Albert.

dodger63

I could almost bet that was done at the same exact proffesional shop I suggested you go to to have the kleemans straightened.. Please give props to who did the work.. Let me guess......

propain

No offense, but why was that decision left up to Albert?

If the Kleemans needed to be straightened for a proper installation is shouldnt have been a suggestion, it should have just been done. Was it a money thing?

dodger63

Idk it wasn't left up to him.. I'm not defending anyone here.. Just telling my account of what happen I don't no what transpired between Albert and rpm at all other then what I heard this will become a he said she said.. Who cares I don't.. I did my best to help a fellow member out I gave my stock airboxs, ran my a$$ to the dyno with Albert for support.. I don't need to defend myself I go above and beyond for people as per jon drag radials at the track.. We all will sit here and think about this and blam whoever but the fact is there will never be any concrete info if this was the reason wgy there was no power.. But let's all remeber malaka made 50hp with ALL his mods???

propain

I am not questioning your integrity at all Mike. You have shown that you go above and beyond to help people on on this forum with not only your knowledge but also your time and materials. That's why I said no offense. I'm not blaming you or pointing the finger I am just trying to figure out how things went and what went wrong.

Anyone who helps Jon should get a medal in my book!

I'm ready to drop it. Whats done is done. I hope all parties have at least gained something from this experience.

Happy Holidays, May Santa bring everyone more HP in their stockings...

dodger63

You showing up to Mir on the 18th

propain

I actually think im going to make it! Unless something changes I will be there.

dodger63

Are u buying drs

propain

Its really cold. I don't think I have a choice or ill be running 13's

SonnyakaPig

The issue isn't just "why was no power gained" but why would this project get this far and why would the car owner not be informed about the gross install job before he had to come to the forums to try to figure out what was wrong with his car.

The wild goose chase that Albert was set on was shady and disrespectful. It wasted his time and yours, apparently.

But if we return to why the car made no power, it likely had to do with the fact that one of the manifold primaries looks to be over 20% dented. Wouldn't that affect airflow at a very crucial point in the exhaust stream? Or put another way, is anyone actually surprised that his car made no power with this particular install job and lack of proper fitment?

dodger63

My response to this is was albert informed that modifications were done was kleeman contacted and asked if this so called mod would effect the performance of there product.. Are these known or unknown?? It's starting to look like I'm defending rpm here which I am a bit because as always there are things left out I'm sure.. There seems to be a witch hunt between shops tuners and members which I do not care to get involved with.. I'd like to try to keep whatever credibility I have here and that is.. I run my car hard.. And don't talk *****.. I'm here only to do my part in helping others as I hope/wish people do the same.. I just 2 day aired my rear shock to qship.. Why idk that's how I am. I offered my airboxes to Albert and my time and ideas, I gave jon my dr's at the track.. Ok well the last one I was selfish about I new there would be no way he could break a record.. Look, like I said in the bigging I don't want part of any bad mouthing.. Dirty laundry I feel shouldnt be aired out on a public forum under any circumstance.. All I can offer or my opinions. The part we will never no the whole reason for this thread was to find alberts 40+ hp from the kleemen manifolds. Which in my opinion is not possible with kleemans part!! Forget the install we willnever find out if it did or did not have an effect? Could the dent idk could the misangles of it I'm sure it could but we will not no? This is my only point..

SonnyakaPig

As per usual, your points are well taken.

This is not a witch hunt.

You help people by lending them things. That's very nice.

My way of helping people is stepping up and speaking my mind when I feel something not quite right happened. This was an example of someone that didn't deserve it, to get the short end of the stick and then to be just led around.

This one single episode caused me to instantly never want to purchase a product from a company that does R&D like this.

And I understand we are talking about peoples' livelihoods here. This is no joke and normally I would just not respond and stay out, but I step in and say my piece when someone is being taken advantage of.

This episode is pretty clear.

I think it can be dangerous to ignore situations like this. No one should have to go through this.

I've gone through this from other "reputable" multi-million dollar performance vendors. And I will not go through it again. That's why I do so much research, that's why I pay such close attention to threads like these.

With all this said, I respect you, and I care about your opinion, that's why I'm explaining myself.

dodger63

Thank you as I respect your opinion! I have learned allot from this forum. About business practices, bait and switch, and plain old people talking *****. Here is my final thought on this;
If you are miticulas and are crazy about detail.. Maybe you shouldn't be the guinea pig.. Allot of mods require slight modifications especially ones that have never been tried..

If you want a perfect fit make sure you get pleanty of feed back from multiple users..

If the parts need custom peices for the job to be done right let's all go to the right shop that can get it done to our own personal preference..

Albert non of this is an attack on you in anyway u seem like a very nice guy..

And anyone who knows Craig and his way of doing business will no that he just wants people to be faster and happier at least me anyway...

SonnyakaPig

Well said.

Staff@RPM

I'll say it one last time, the clearance was not put into the pipe until after the car was driven with the headers installed, no modifications were done to the pipe until after the install was done. The headers were installed with no modifications to the pipe. Under very hard acceleration while the wheel was cut to the left it was hitting. There were other suggestions for the cure to this made by other people that Albert talked to but we deemed those modifications to be dangerous and would not perform them. We made clearance on the pipe to get rid of the noise. Albert still had the noise when the wheel was cut full lock and the car was accelerated at WOT. I don't really know what situation you would be in when you would drive a car like this but it still made noise under that situation and it was requested that we make more room to eliminate the noise. Without the modification to the pipe the steering rack had enough clearance without hitting until the engine was torqued. It's up to you how you want to interpret this.

BELIEVE ME THAT IF THE PIPE HIT THE STEERING COLUMN WHEN WE INSTALLED IT WE WOULD HAVE BOXED THEM UP AND SENT THEM BACK!!!! Nobody seems to understand the circumstances under which this was done because what you hear is what is conveniently said.

I'm not coming on here to defend anything or say anything about anyone else. There is a reason that things are done and there are circumstances to everything. I do not discuss these things on the forums, I am just on these forums to help people out and give people things that they need. We are the farthest shop from greedy out there. Believe me when I tell you we are not looking to hurt our customers in any way and we go way above and beyond what any other shop does for there customers.

Albert has never picked up the phone and called me and told me he was going back to stock or he wanted this or that from me. Don't you think that if he wanted something from me that I would or at least should have been one of the first people that he contacted? Why does everyone feel that they need to explain to me what I have to do for Albert and you're all acting like I blew him off or left him hanging out to dry? Well, I guess it's not everyone on here, just a couple of people that seem to be very interested in it.

propain

3 sides to every story I guess.

I'm interested because Albert was very upset about it and is a very nice guy. I was looking out for his interests as a consumer. If he didn't feel like he was wronged in any way it would have never made it this far.

Maybe you can reach out to Albert and make things right with him. He mentioned some money off the labor costs of the job to recoup his loses. I don't know how much you have talked since. That is a personal matter between you and him as far as Im concerned.. I was only interested in seeing his car perform to the best it possibly could and properly. Im not looking to get into a shop war or a tune war or anything else on here. Ive learned my lesson getting into ***** like that on here. I want to take my car and go as far as it will take me with the amount of money I'm willing to spend on it. The end.

We are all car enthusiasts here. We all try to educate ourselves and offer theories to problems. We like to pretend we all know the problem or the solution to it. Some have more practical knowledge. Some are just book smart but rarely do any of the work. You guys are the pro's. The longer you stay out of a thread like this the worse it gets. You said you don't like to talk on forums, but this is the place where you make your money.

There is nothing else really left to say. Whats done is done at this point. Lets get back to going faster and setting some more records!

AlbertM

Craig, I perosnally don't have anything against you and never said that you owe me this or that. Second, I questioned the quality of the work, not the reasons why you did this vs that. True, I never called after our last meeting at rpm, reasons? You told me you did not know what else to do. You told me that you can put me back to stock or delete the cats for a fee, of course, not free. So frankly, the quality of the install is what bothered me more than anything so I decided to go else where. It is really that simple, do you think I would go out of my way and look elsewhere, considering that you are conviniently located an exit away from me? Think about it. I only wanted a closure, that is all. If you told me, come back and we straigten this out for you (for free), I would have gladly come back to you. But, that never happened. It would cost me the same at your shop or elsewhere. So I went to the place where I thought I will get better quality. Anyone is my place would do the same, including you.

Trust me when I tell you, I hear ur reasons, I really do. But the truth is the quality of the job just sucked. So I went elsewhere, so would u if u were me. It is not personal.
I also do believe that this form is the place to air out stuff like this, where else? if you remember there were at least 5 theories why headers did not work:
1) OEtune was too lean, need to go with K1
2) Airbox mod
3) Dent in the header, bad installation
4) Kleemann headers just dont work
5) Primary cats are shot

So I turned to the forum to get advise. Why? Well the pros can't figure it out, not at RPM, not at Kleemann not anywhere. I was looking for answers. My mission was not out to get RPM or make anyone look bad, my mission was to find what the hell was wrong with my car.

AlbertM

Craig, I think we should take this offline and close this thread.

GHAZAN

I imagine your lost about 500+....to be honest you shouldve never been charged for that amateur hour work even if it did fit