SonnyakaPig

I didn't know this. I would love to find out if I could incorporate the improvements into my 09' 7g Tronic.

Thanks for letting us know.

SonnyakaPig

Do you really think the driveline shock from the twin screw at low to moderate boost will be a problem outside of the transmission? Seems like cars that are pushing a lot of power to the rear wheels aren't having issues with the drive shaft, differential or axles.

Btw, please update us if you figure out the T56 conversion. That sounds cool.

MBH motorsports

great work! Very cool new product. As for the header thing being tossed around here... Every long header I've seen on a supercharged car has in turn lowered the boost.
For example the last aftermarket superchargable NA mercedes. The 55NA, as seen in the 203,208,210,209,and SLK55. My C55 had a C/R of 11:1 I ran 10psi of boost all day long as a daily driver. Then after the the project was finished, I made long tube headers. Seeing a boost drop of about 1 - 1.5psi and making more power... and that boost drop was over a shorty header.

At this stage in the game and this being a new product that isn't even to market yet. I would let the cards play out, see where they fall. If tuning pans out down the road, I dont think running a long header will be an issue... Also do not underestimate the strength of an AMG N/A piston. They have been proven to be able to handle boost in the past.

it will be interesting to see the power output. Then if i can speculate, one would think tuning would be based off of a map that has the throttle body opened all the way? If it does or doesn't make any more HP over a tuned and headered 63. I would bet it would make a lot more torque.

To me this is very exciting new ground and I hope it works out. All we can do now is sit back and see how it all plays out. I wish this company the best of luck with with extremely exciting new product.

RStevens63

Positive Displacement superchargers make significantly more boost/torque off idle than a centrifugal ever will. It's also common knowledge that pos. displace. superchargers add more stress to the driveline because of the low/mid rpm boost/torque. With a cent blower you can stay out of boost if you want too, not so much with these.

The statements about more hp than tq and vise versa are all generalizations. Ultimately the ratio depends on pulley size, engine capacity, boost, other modifications, etc. Any positive displacement blower can easily make more torque than hp depending on the application at hand.

TVS blowers are more efficient under 15psi than twin screws, that is a fact.

This is spot on. Next to rpm nothing kills engines faster than heat, and there will be more of it in every instance here. Engine coolant, engine oil, trans fluid, etc.

I think it's going to take years to prove that FI is safe on a M156. This motor was never meant to be boosted (later on yes, but with different internals, fuel system, engine management, etc) and we are all spoiled by the N/A power we can make without batting an eye as far as losing reliability or durability. It takes a real monkey to screw things up N/A, with FI it's pretty easy. LOL, there are members on here now that are worried about a tune screwing their car up. Now factor in no one has gotten FI to work on a 63 yet, which is why I say it's going to take time--as it should.

Great summation. I think (as already stated by others) this kit was designed for a stock vehicle, going much if any further will require a lot of $ to be spent upgrading pretty much everything engine/trans related.

Cool, but not even close to what the BMW guys have to play with as far as superchargers go.

JL_C63

Ok my friend, my car is not a daily car, i use it only in track days and street races with my friends, and believe me, i put the 633 rwhp on the asphalt all time, the 98% of time my car has been the pedal to full throttle.

So, I think that the transmission may present some issues in a near future, maybe, its possible

I have many years with very powerfull cars, i have a Shelby GT500 with 1100 rwhp, and believe me, i know who many problems can occur, but we must be prepared.

I would like to know if is possible swap a 5 speed transmission, maybe it is possible, i dont know.

I trust that they solve the problem, because they can not offer a extreme power kit if not solve the problem of transmission, either with other internals or making a swap with other transmission.

But i think that this kit can offer very good results, is early to make some afirmations. we must wait for them to perform all necessaries tests to make the kits reliable, everything we say now is just speculation.

RStevens63

That's because boost is merely a measurement of restriction (backpressure) that's relevant only to the motor it's being measured on. Every motor will be different.

You're seeing more power with less boost because less backpressure is allowing a greater mass of air (HP is air moved) through the motor. Therefore more power and torque and less boost or backpressure.

propain

Id like to see this 1400 crank HP GT500 ASAP. Sounds like a beats.

RStevens63

You must be spinning a lot Do you run drag radials with low pressure and heated up? If you run radials (non DRs) you may never blow your trans because the tires are the ultimate slip point. If they spin very little wear occurs to your driveline.

You can't compare a factory FI GT500 (trans will take 1100rw from the factory) with a 722.9 equipped C63. The car was built to handle boost and serious modification, C63s were not.

No. Different trannys and ECU & TCUs, it would be just as easy to use a Ford or Chevy trans and you'd likely have just as many CELs.

Here's the kicker. We have no info to go off of that the transmission and converter issues have been handled.

You can tell a lot from just looking at the kit and the specifications that have been released. The good news (for you) is that your throttle bodies will work very well with the blower.

RStevens63

http://www.weistec.com/

Not much info here either.

C63 Guy

No no, I was still talking about shock inside the trans... Really more of a rhetorical question than anything specific.

Also, MB is using the '10 upgrade parts in all trans repairs now. So all you have to do to get them is make nice with your local SA (get him laid at the very least, this is a biggie), cook your trans up (I can give you instructions), and pray to the deity of your choice. Then probably get your tech laid as well, just to cover all your bases.

And regarding the T56, it's not so much a hardware issue as a software issue. The European C has a manual, so the pedals, clutch MC parts, and the stick assembly are available. I measured the back of my motor when the trans was out, so machining or casting a bellhousing isn't out of the question. And the T56 is fairly compact like the 722, so it should fit. But I'm a metal guy. I look at that stuff and think "sure, why not."

The software is going to be the real nightmare. For starters, just look at our speedo: It's got the gear display integrated into it, and the AMG screens use the gear display prominently. Also, the ECU won't work without the TCU being connected (Personal experience, again). Maybe a SW engineer can remove the associated coding, but it seems really deeply coded together. The stability control uses a trans speed sensor in it's calculations, so that's out the door too. I'd be down with a standalone system, but I don't know of any that'll also run the instrument cluster and stability systems.

Also, I have no idea of the interconnection between the MMI system and the ECU/TCU is. Could be some untangling there too... Yikes.

Anyway, boost is good if done right. These guys seem to be on the right track. Can't wait to test one of their cars.

Josh

SonnyakaPig

I would counter that your last statement is also a generalization as it's simply not true for LS3/L99 application.

Twin screws make more power with less boost than TVS blowers for the above two engines. It's not a crazy difference but it is consistent.

Like you said, it really depends on engine size, blower size, and other factors.

When you look at 2.3L TVS blowers, they make boost faster than 2.8L twin screws on a 6.2L LS3/L99. But, the 2.3L TVS blowers are reaching their limits on efficiency before 15 psi. At 15 psi, the blower is spinning outside of its efficiency range for this specific application.

2.8L twin screws make more power on the LS3/L99 from like 7-8 psi on up.

And again, like you correcly pointed out, centris do not make boost off idle as soon and efficiently as top mounts, unless, big unless, the centri is running more boost than the top mount.

For instance, a centi running 15 psi on a built LS3 will make more hp and torque off idle than a twin screw running 7 psi. That's a fact too.


Completely agree.

SonnyakaPig

Josh,

Thanks for the clarification! And great input. Learning a lot from your posts.

RStevens63

You are comparing a smaller 2.3L TVS with a larger 2.8L TS. Not quite apples to apples. Try comparing a 2.3L TS vs a 2.3L TVS. I know by comparison no one sticks a 2.3L TS on a 6.2L motor (case in point) but if there was data out there it would support my argument.

Again this is a function of supercharger displacement, get the right size blower on there and the numbers will change.

Yes if you put it that way, "a centri running 2x as much peak boost as a TS may make more boost just off idle" it makes sense, but why not compare with equal boost levels? Seems to make the most sense. In that case the TS would trump the centri again.

C63 Guy

Thanks bro.

Also, I just re-watched the video and didn't see any provision for chargecooling. It looks like the charger is stacked right on the manifold. That's definitely going to limit the amount of boost they can run if I'm seeing it right. Maybe they use a thin core air/water system or...? I remember seeing some cool round core chargecoolers that a lot of manufacturers use, but I forgot the name. Lame.

Also, I like that they use the stock upper airboxes because I hear the ECUs are real testy when it comes to the MAFs. Something the Renntech guys had to deal with. Gotta use their tune with their airboxes. Good way to add cubic dollars to the price of your system.

Josh

RStevens63

Thank you, I thought I was the only one that noticed this setup doesn't appear to be intercooled??

JL_C63

I use Nitto NT555r 285/35-18 with low pressure, i go to the track a couple of times of the month, and the race days on the street are a couple of times on a week, jeje.
I`m not compare the GT500 trasmission with a C63 transmission, i talk only about the experience modded powerfull cars and the problems that can occurs.
Yes aparently my throttles are ready for this kit.

RStevens63

I think it's great you race your heavily modified C63. What kind of times are you seeing out of it N/A and on nitrous? 200 shot? Wow!

blackbenzz

Laminova cores. The vid says it's water cooled

C63 Guy

Laminova. That's the one, thanks and nice catch.

Josh

SonnyakaPig

I understand your points. As you can see, I was just comparing the available blowers, not really blowers that don't exist for the engine applications that I mentioned. But your point is well taken and obviously true.

Btw, I mentioned the example of the centri making more power off idle than a twin screw (even though the centri makes more psi in this example) because it used to **** me off that guys running centris on LS3's would make more off idle torque than my twin screwed L99 (L99 has less aggressive cams so makes less power).

Even if the centri was pushing less than 15 psi, like around 10-12 psi, it still made more off idle power than my 91 octane, conservative tuned, L99. I would think, "but this can't be, my twin screw should make more off idle power."

It really depends on the specific application.

Also, the first blower I installed on my L99 Camaro was a Vortech V-3 Si centri. I don't intend for that statement to mean anything in this argument, just pointing out that I've tried them on two cars now.

Anway, just responding to your well reasoned posts.

Mort

It does not appear to be intercooled and I wondered about that as well but it does say that it has "-Air to Water Intercooler System" at the end of the video. It will be interesting to see how they fit it in and how efficient it will be. This will be a key part of the puzzle.

SonnyakaPig

You're welcome.

So, in this twin screw option from Weistec, the intercooler is not under the blower? Perhaps there is an air/water heat exchanger that mounts up in front of the radiator, like on the Kenne Bell twin screws.

RStevens63

Always nice chatting with you Jacob!

Yes there are truly so many factors involved that it makes comparison difficult no question.

Thanks

RStevens63

I wonder if the intercooler is reserved for their higher level kits? Not included with the base kit (it really should be as pointed out) but on more expensive models?

As you said an IC is very necessary when trying to push boost into a 11.3:1 motor.

Thanks!

EUGENE-Taiwan

damn that thing will be a beast for sure!

someone has to get on the transmission development!!! its going to need it.