Good info Josh.

Didn't know about the torque converter and stall speed issue.


Mike

 

You mean the 11.1@128 car on spray? That's still slower than JRs car? 10.8s is what he went N/A right? 10.6s on spray?

Does that include cosmetic mods only or are you trying to tell me you've modified the drivelines of 220 of the how many CLK63 BS's in the world?

Either way you haven't put nitrous on 220 of them and that's the only mod available so far that adds enough torque to blow a brand new trans in less than a week. Like I said before NA bolt-ons won't do it alone unless the car is raced hardcore for XXXXX miles.

LOL, I wasn't born yesterday Brad. Please keep the numbers real. While you may have modified other BSs not to JRCART level. DTM seats? Dymags? Nitrous? Sorry not buying it.

It has been posted, 8 passes with a 160 shot on Keith's car making 550rwtq+ burned through 2 trannys, 1 built, 1 stock in a week.

Please show me a 600rwtq dyno graph from a 63 AMG, you know because the trans torque limiter(s) don't allow that much twist to be fed through the trans it would be interesting to see.

Unfortunately for you the fact is I was correct, ZERO. Will I now receive an infraction point because I posted factual information by means of a rhetorical question?

Tuned, big deal, again it's not tunes or bolt-on parts that kill them, it's power adder torque or in Josh's case likely his many brake assisted burnouts.

1 and 3 converters. No heresay here my friend, which is why I'm confident in discussing this topic with you. How many clutches are in the OEM converter? What percentage does an OEM converter lock at WOT? Indulge me

That is an assumption if I've ever seen one. See above, being that I actually have experience in this field, frankly I find your assumption condescending.

You've seen pictures? I'm sorry that relates to having your hands inside one how? Again another incorrect assumption from you.

Have you ever built or rebuilt a transmission ever? Of any make or model?

So far I've seen far more assumptions from you in this post than anyone else in this thread. My apologies if you think I'm condescending, I don't, I consider myself a realist. Based on my first hand experience I know how many trannys are going to go south unless Weistec comes through with trans hardware and software solutions, not to mention a totally redesigned converter with additional clutches.

Keith has 26K miles of abuse on his car and has sprayed larger shots (meaning more torque) than JRCART as far as I know. That's the difference. Yes JRCART races no question but all the NA passes or laps in the world won't do it, it's the high torque apps that will.

LOL, I would say Keith had a great trans, the fact it lasted that long, 150+ 1/4 mile passes, 3 standing mile events, Roebling Road, Sebring, him just daily driving it, etc. The aftermarket parts he used were the same as used by Josh in his rebuild so scratch that possibility off the list please.

The truth is you don't know because you're not a hardware guy, you run the business. You base your info on pictures, you've never rebuilt a trans before, therefore you are the last person that should be commenting on this. Again there are NOT 300-400 cars with full bolt-ons spraying large shots of nitrous. There are less than 5, and some of them run street tires which mitigates any driveline wear as they are the slip point of the system. Traction + Torque = Death for these transmissions.

You are doing exactly what you describe presently, with no experience to back your claims, I would personally call that hypocritical.

No, it's the rpm that kills them not HP. 1) Torque 2) Rpm 3) Heat. Those are the leading causes of transmission failures. ALL driveline parts are rated in lb/ft aka torque not HP. You should know this Brad, this is 101 stuff.

HUH??? Every 63 AMG is at least 4100lbs and is naturally aspirated vs the 55k/600/65s with superchargers or turbos to make insane torque to get their heavy cars moving. You want as much torque as possible in any performance application (within constraints of the driveline). Further I find it absolutely impossible (and yes I've designed headers myself while at Cope) for one style of header to generate the extra 100lb/ft necessary to destroy the trans vs another. Where are you getting this? It just makes no sense whatsoever??? If anything 63s are torque deficient compared to previous AMG models, I'm sure everyone on the forum agrees to that.

FWIW, I would love to see pictures of your 4 into 1s, surely you must have some laying around.



WHAT???? Hahahahahaha!!! You are now saying Keith's header design (MHP) may be responsible for his trans breaking? Talk about the mother of all assumptions. Just Wow Brad. Driveline shock? Are you kidding me? These are not manual trans cars dumping the clutch at 9000rpm with 1000lb/ft. Erratic acceleration caused by a 4 into 1 header design? I'm really just dumbfounded by these comments. You are not talking to an oil change tech.

So instead of thinking along the lines of a larger shot making more torque because that's what nitrous does better than anything (make torque) you want to blame header design.

That is yet another assumption and is the most unfounded one yet.

You must be joking, you have to be???

No, it's up to us to decide because Weistec isn't the only one pushing the limits (others already have and you'd be wise to listen to them instead of arrogantly assuming something based on pictures you saw).

If Weistec doesn't do what they said they would with the trans, I wish them the best of luck.

No, Keith isn't a drag racer, he is a Racer. Open track, drag, whatever, he is a true performance enthusiast.

Do you think that future Weistec owners (if the product is released as planned) won't drag race their cars? You don't think they will go WOT through the gears a few times even if they don't?

I didn't say ignoring questions, that must have been someone else, I said we were patiently waiting for answers to questions that need to be addressed.

Overall I think you need to get your hands dirty and spend less time posting.

Thanks
Robert

 

I want to thank all, I'm learning so much.

 

And I'm also learning what is the fastest way to get banned from this site

 

Disagreeing and correcting the site admin? If so that makes for a sad site.

I would prefer a technical discussion with additional questions and answers, but if I get banned for posting what I just did, so be it, that would mean this is not the kind of forum I want to be associated with anyway.

I didn't break any rules, violate the tou, etc so it would be a purely personal ban.

 

Well in the interest of full disclosure, why don't you give us all a bit more info on your background? You seem to know the aftermarket game pretty well, have contact with former Kleemann employees in Europe and apparently know quite a bit about exactly what Brad does, etc...So, who are you - really? Do you work for another tuner? Is Robert your real name? If you know so much about AMG's, why not give us a bit more info about who you really are so that we can draw our own conclusions about your technical knowledge.

 

If you want to know about my technical background, ask me a technical question as it's the only relevant factor in what you're asking for.

Yep I know a lot of people in the aftermarket, not just MB & AMG, it's nice to have friends.

I don't know Brad from Adam, but when you work in this business (actually building hardware) you can tell from reading someone's posts if they are on the same level or even close to it.

 

Brad,
My "package" is the same package that just ran the 10.8 at over 131mph. Its a great package and it runs those numbers because of the torque and HP it puts out. I don't really understand why you would want someone to make headers that produce less torque on a car that you call "torquey" when these cars are heavy and need torque to get moving. Thats some of the difference in the performance of the different packages that don't run the numbers. Don't see how we can complain about having too much torque??

Can I ask a logical question? JRCart has talked about his 10 second passes over and over and never posted a single time slip or video that I know of? He always says he has nothing to prove but I am asking. Where are the videos and time slips?

My car has grown up 1/4 mile at a time and when it was allowed to stretch its legs it was road racing. Neither of which are really good on a tranny. Hundreds of burn outs, launches, and runs. I admit it got abused and never said it wasn't. It was absolutely flawless until we installed the nitrous. Not a single hick up or miss shift until the first night we took it out on the nitrous. The car was making incredible torque and HP and the tranny was tired and worn out. Its as simple as that. We replaced the internals with L10 parts and returned to the track with the nitrous and destroyed it again. Doesn't matter how or even why, it didn't survive.

We have since put a newer design tranny in like Josh's and will run it N/A for now. I may use the nitrous for the mile runs so we can get over the 200mph mark. Other than that the Nitrous set up is good for car shows.

I don't understand why you guys need to argue about the tranny and its potential. In "MY" case it didn't survive. Maybe there are others like JRCarts that have have managed to survive. Maybe the black series is lighter and therefore doesn't put the same amount of strain on the drive train. I don't have an answer and it doesn't matter. Mine is fixed and ready to go.

 

Luke, stop wasting your time. I have.

He has no clue who I am or what I have or haven't done. RStevens, for the record I have built and rebuilt my own track record holding and wining road race cars for many years before founding evosport (Yes, including transmissions, diffs, valve jobs, etc). I am not a certified trained tech by a long shot, but mechanical work is not rocket science. With logic and experience or good instructions, many of us on this forum could rebuild nearly anything mechanical on a MBZ.

Further, I think our 12 year record of pushing the performance envelope gives me some ability to have this discussion. RStevens has an agenda and I am done debating people who cannot discuss things without being rude and condescending!

Let it go! As my mentor always said, to fight a gutter war, you have to be in the gutter!

Thanks
brad

 

What does a JD/MBA have to do with building engines, transmissions, or converters?

Valve jobs? What kind of machine, what valve angles, what heads? That is my forte so I'll be glad to listen to whatever you have to say.

Be proud that you own the company but don't take credit for the work of your staff/techs. That's only fair.

This is a technical discussion, and I'm sorry you've found certain comments to be condescending, I felt the same regarding some of yours but am still here to amicably discuss tech.

My agenda is to seek the truth and ultimately learn and help others, hopefully that is within the guidelines of this site's membership.

Thank You

 

That is the exact point Keith. In YOUR case it failed. In MANY other cases it has not failed. Yet RStevens wants to push the agenda that your failure means it will fail for anyone. THAT is the point. I have a problem with people preaching FEAR in order to push an agenda.

Thanks
Brad

 

Brad,

With all due respect, how many other cars are at Keith's level? How many have sprayed 160+HP worth of nitrous (and torque) on top of a full bolt-on M156? 2 (Keith and JL)? How many have done it as many times as he has on sticky DRs on a prepped surface? 0. Even JR hasn't sprayed a 160 shot.

I have nothing to gain by putting "fear" into anyone's mind, however the trans hardware & software issues do need to be addressed. This is not just my opinion as Weistec even admitted to making changes there to accomodate the supercharger.

Thank You

 

My last reply to you on this topic, period is this:

HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU KNOW WHAT JRCART (JIM) HAS OR HAS NOT DONE? HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT PEOPLE IN DUBAI, AUSTRALIA, JAPAN, CHINA, QATAR, KUWAIT, ETC HAVE OR ARE DOING?

Things exist and happen that are not reported on this site or on drag times. I would say only about 5-10% of Mercedes modifying customers even know what those sites are based on the fact that less than 5% of our AMG business comes from this site.

You should REALLY think about that question. You continue to post things as if you KNOW when you really just have opinions and assumptions.

Have a nice weekend!
Brad

 

Someone clarify for me.

There has been no success in developing a useable supercharger aftermarket product for the M156.

Instead everyone is argueing about what would break if you had the product.

"Force it, and if it breaks, it needed replacing anyway."

 

Why are you yelling? Did I yell at you?

JR's accomplishments have been well documented on this forum. I read everything about his car I could. It was never claimed he went over a 100 shot.

I have as many connections to racers in those countries as I do in the U.S. Do I know it all, no, but word travels incredibly fast when someone has a car worth noting.

Sorry but there are no cars in Japan comparable to Keith's or JRs. I wouldn't have even listed that one

Anyway, that door swings both ways, how do you know that Keith is the only one aside from Josh to have blown his trans? A: You don't either.

What is the percentage cited based on? Was there an objective poll taken by MB/AMG, SEMA, PRI or are you just tossing a number out?

I highly doubt only 5% of your business comes from MBW, if that were truly the case I don't think you'd stil be running it (wasting the time online). I could be wrong, but MBW seems like a cash cow to me?

Nah, I post facts unless I'm uncertain in which case I post that it is an opinion. Again I reference blaming header design for a trans blowing while ignoring the fact that the racer in question was using significantly more nitrous than your example. Nitrous increases torque exponentially as a power adder should. That was kind of like saying, my friend survived being stabbed in the heart with a 3ft knife, it was the tetanus shot that killed him.

Please enjoy your weekend as well. Hopefully we can have a civilized discussion next week.

 

It is because of the very reasons you cite (driveline breakage) that no FI kit exists. Others have gotten as far as Weistec aka Brabus, MKB and others, however they couldn't get past the trans and converter issues.

Problem is no one can upgrade the parts necessary to do so.

 

Anything can be done - it just takes money. As evidenced by this thread:

https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/...?highlight=pos

If that guy who spent $31k for a crankshaft had put his money towards building a new 722.9, I'm sure it would be unbreakable. But, some people are very misguided...and while the build was unreal and the car is very very fast, it's still a POS IMO.

 

I'm a firm believer that damn-near anything is possible if you throw enough money at the issue.

Why can't the 7G be upgraded to withstand the higher limits? Couldn't the stock metal parts be cryo-treated for greater strength? Couldn't grippier friction surfaces be spec'd to hold greater TQ?

While debating the cost/benefit is another issue, I have a hard time believing you couldn't call up AMG, Brabus, RENNtech, or maybe a trans specialist like Southern Hot Rod, and say "hey, here's $20k - build me a bullet-proof (hardware) 7G trans." It literally can't be done?

 

Holy crap... I have a new policy, no longer reading anything longer then 3 lines....

Sheesh

 

I made this EXACT argument not long ago on this forum...

otherwise I haven't been keeping up with this thread so I have no clue what you guys are debating.

 

I agree, money helps, but here's the catch the hardware is already at least partially available--that's not the real problem.

Problem is the trans software. Unless you can account for the upgraded hardware via software, the hardware is useless; again as we saw in Keith's case, even with L10 internals BAM 6 passes and 50 miles later another trans died.

Then there is the 3 clutch converter. Just never going to hold the tq, it physically can't.

 

Hardware wise, sure, but again the problem is trans software and the converter. $20k isn't going to do it.

AFAIK, there are 4 factory trans tools that can remap a 722.9 TCU including all the relevant maps that would need to be modified based on hardware changes live on the fly. 3 are in Europe, 1 is in NJ USA, and they are guarded like gold.

Unless Weistec has one of those, well, I just don't see good things happening.

 

Hey I just checked out that build. Some cool stuff but also some flaws you can see in the pics.

Check out the valve guides, mowed down to the roofs of the ports, that means those valves when going up and down at 11,000rpm are going to be beating those beautiful seats to death. Mowing the guides down eliminates all stability in the valve.

Also speaking of the seats, where's the blend on the VJ? Head looks like it came right out of a valve cutter.

Rods are overkill, you want components to be light to live at those rpm. Ken Duckworth (one of the founding partners of Cosworth) was once quoted as saying "if after a race a motor is torn down and a part is found to be in one piece, it is immediately redesigned and made lighter." LOL. Love that one.

Anyway, yes it proves the point that anything is possible with hardware. Again though beating the encryption on the TCU software, not going to happen.

 

I thought this thread was about a supercharged C63?

 

Just regarding your last point here: is it because of the nature of the transmission design that it just could never consistently handle torque of a supercharger or that no-one is smart enough yet to figure it out. Is is a design limitation or a lack or R&D. From what you are saying brabus MKB etc who dont want for R&D $$, just could figure it out which would ijply the design could never take the power of a turbo supercharger etc?

Do you think the trans of an SL63 is a different kettle of fish in terms of accomodating supercharger, or is it even more delicate?