VCA_AMG

Please provide a link to data ANYWHERE that makes this type of blanket black & white statement?

I live in the information age. I've learned a lot about engines over the many years motorsports, and I'm FAR from a know-it-all (I learn something new every day)...but I do my best to not claim to know things I have no idea about. Again, how old are you...20?

Pushrods only are used in drag racing b/c the engines are rebuilt every run? Jon, you keep digging yourself deeper into the "I have no f&&king clue what I'm talking about" pit Ignorance. It gets under my skin and I should let it go...which I'm doing now. Peace gentlemen.

Jons95c36amg

Another example is the new Dodge Srt-8 engine which they increased the displacement to 6.4L to get 470hp. They couldnt get 500hp from the 6.1L? Probably could but wouldnt be emission legal. Again the push rod has limitations.

sknight

No, it wasn't GM built. Same as most engines put in most cars around the world. It was still a fairly exotic engine, designed by GM when they had Lotus, then assembled by Mercury Marine. Nothing wrong with that. I don't see how that is a defense. The problem with the ZR1 engine was the size, despite being extremely low profile, designed in by Lotus and GM. Then as technology got better, the gap between it and the pushrod engine drastically shrank, proven by track times, strip times, and power output. This also allowed GM to continue development to fit these engines into smaller and smaller engine bays and optimize the chassis, rather than optimizing it to fit a certain size of engine on the warehouse shelf, not unlike more recent German development that appeared years later, such as fitting V8's into smaller engine bays of 200 bodies in Audis, down to the A4 chassis, which predates Mercedes' capability to do so by many years.

I don't get where you get they have to use bigger displacement to get the HP emissions legal. This isn't 1972 and the Clean Air Act era.

sknight

Can you provide any evidence to that effect and what market they were trying to get the conformity for? You're also not understanding that power generation isn't a single peak number like you're displaying. It's how the power is made, which is why many cars with less power can out accelerate many with higher horsepower to weight ratio cars.

Jons95c36amg

Dude read what you post. Top Fuel Dragsters engines are rebuilt after a day of racing.

sknight

Again, you're not addressing what the fundamental difference in running came from the transition to OHC, which has narrowed now.

Jons95c36amg

Yes how the power is made-push rod needs a bigger displacement to get more hp. Which is not efficient these days of going green. The argument here is not about power to lbs ratio.

propain

Hard to say. With information so easily accessable these days (google) it wouldnt come as a surprise to me if half these people never touched an engine in their life other than adding some oil and coolant.

VCA_AMG

LOL dude...

I did read what I posted, and I'm correct (I even gave you the benefit of the doubt, misquoting you).

Top Fuel engines are rebuilt after every RUN. You are more ignorant about engines and racing than I thought.

You are way outgunned in this conversation, why not step away and drop it?

I'm still waiting on a link to your blanket statement about pushrods vs DOHC engines. Never mind that pushrod engines are smaller, lighter, generally more fuel efficient and cheaper to make.

sknight

I have a feeling that your assessment of him was dead on. He's busy on wikipedia right now trying to find out how and why the two systems differed. Or even better, he's figuring out how to revise things we said into saying we're old and stone age, rather than defending himself.

VCA_AMG

Clueless!!!

Pushrod engines are often MORE fuel efficient than DOHC equivalents b/c they can spin at a lower RPM, make the same or better power, and get better fuel mileage.

Can you find a 505HP DOHC engine that gets 24-26MPG on the freeway like Chevy's SEVEN liter Z06? Make sure to check fuel economy on similar power engines, like Ferrari and Lambo, and tell me what you find. The only one that comes close is Porsche's Turbo F6 engine, which needs forced induction to make its power.

Do a search for his posts. My assessment will be painfully obvious.

propain

After every run bro. They can do a complete rebuild in just over an hour on those engines. NHRA teams are given just 75 mins between rounds and get back to the line. IHRA is 90 mins.

black-clk500

wow, this thread just keeps going on and on
I left a comment this morning came back after a day of working and the sword fight continues.
At least Jon has had a birthday in the mean time--you went from 19 to 20, good for you man

Seriously, I don't know how old Jon is, but if he's 20, I only ask the "engine gurus" what they knew at 20 years old?
I don't know if there's any validity to Jon's claims or if he's wiki-ing, but either way I think we all know who's measuring longer--sorry Jon, but these guys are just thicker and longer

Mods, can we change the title to read "Which engine is a better value, C63 vs CTS-V" because this thread may be confusing for the three guys that use the search button



thanks man, just tryin to keep things simple and OT

VCA_AMG

Passive-aggressive posts like this are internet forum classics...always provoking and hiding behind the "I'm just joking!" excuse. And what's with your awkward ***** reference obsession? Must be a C63 thing?

If this is aimed at me, 1) I'm not an engine guru, and 2) what I knew at 20 was to not post about things I didn't understand. He puts a target on his back with almost every post.

sknight

I'm not an engine guru, but starting in high school, I began taking advantage of the school's pre-engineering program, despite not going into engineering for more than two semesters in college (subsequently changing). I wanted to get a better understanding of how things worked and physics and why things were designed the way they were, so I began getting donations on my own, of vehicles and machinery to take apart (even attempt a couple rebuilds) and analyze. It was a great exercise in initiative to make contacts to get entire vehicles- delivered for free, so I could rip apart a transmission just to find out about torrington needle bearings or how valve bodies and front pumps worked. Fortunately, those teachers were the guidance I needed to figure out what to do later, rather than do nothing. In my current life, I no longer have the time to rebuild an entire car (Audi turbo quattros was my thing) and restore it from a storage unit piece. I have no time to reverse engineer, nor do I have the money to buy a Star machine just for one car. However, in the future, I predict, and already see, ways of getting around that and will find a nice project piece to take six months off for, keep my mind sharp, while keeping it out of my career for a bit, and reconnect those neural pathways to my hands to get them dirty again and figure problems out during the course.

Incidentally, that HS program was when I learned about the LT1 and what the differences between it and following generations and older generations were, along with learning about different layouts, supercharging, calculations (all in the old Edelbrock catalogs!), and differences in design philosophy between various manufacturers and different countries. OHC, Pushrod, whatever. It didn't matter. I learned to understand why each team did what they did, no matter what the design.

black-clk500

That's a first, now I'm passive aggressive
I'm just trying to be "nicer" on here so I don't get banned again--too aggressive, now passive aggressive, I can't win

As for the "***** reference obsession," I think it's fair to say that this is exactly what these debates are all about--I didn't invent the ***** size metaphor, I would say it's pretty much a societal classic and favorite.
In case you don't get the metaphor (maybe you've been under an engine block for half a century) it relates to a man's bravado or manhood.
Whether you face it or not, having lots of money, big muscles, a powerful job, a fast car--men are attracted to lots of this stuff because "we" think that's what women want (and most of them do) and this all circles back to us as men attracting woman so we can screw and continue our existence.
We're all animals and have deep seated desires and aspirations that exist for one reason, procreating with the best available women, end of story.
In our modern civilization we try to mask and hide from this stuff, but it comes through in all of our daily decisions and as MEN we are combative/competitive by nature because we must impress the WOMAN.
Anyway, that's where the ***** reference comes from, I think we're all pretty clear on it, hopefully that helps explain it to you VCA

Either way, I've already said that you (VCA) and sknight are bigger and thicker on this topic of engines vs our "boy" Jon, but no one likes to have their nose pushed in it.
I'm an expert at my industry and explain and teach and discuss things with people all of the time and I try like hell to not come across like a no-it-all about my industry/business and it just boils me a little to see people being so condescending--whatever, I gotta go get some more tiger blood...

BTW I can call it a pee-pee if **** is too much for you VCA--sorry if you're so afraid of it--I can't seem to stop tuggin on mine, is that awkward and aggressive enough for you, big guy

propain

I think his point is more aimed at how ridiculous you guys sound. There is nothing wrong with an intelligent spirited discussion but honestly at this point you and the other guy are just as bad as he is right now.

None of you are an authority on the subject. Its like watching watching a retard take a MENSA test. Unless your next post is engineering credentials for GM you are all just google ******.

Was the internet even around when you were 20?


Lighten up.. move on. Its the internet.

black-clk500

described nicely, I wish I had that opportunity.
Sounds like a lot of fun!

I've always been fasinated by how things work too (natural and man made), unfortunately for me I was never around engines and cars as a kid, my dad always had nice new ones and I've always enjoyed reading the car mags, but that's about it for me.
Once I was old enough to drive, I got a 5.7 350 Z28 IROC and lightly modded it and enjoyed racing friends and strangers a like--finally crashed the thing into a couple telephone poles and learned to drive safer and smarter.
As my wallet got a little bigger I ventured into the German marques and have been enjoying this AMG car a lot--as my wallet grows and I get older, I start to value different things about my "toy" cars and for me, this beast is a blast

black-clk500

^^^this

sknight

Smart people who take MENSA tests or show off how they're MENSA members are even more ridiculous to watch than that.

Vic55

What was this thread about again?

Time to close as the point of the original discussion has long since vanished.