Ingenieur

this site has 280,000 members, and I estimate >10% of all threads are in affected model forums

there are probably 5% in the C63 alone (14,000), we have 13 failures...
I base this on 6% of all model forum threads being in the C63 forum
even if it's only 7000 that is a large portion of owners

too many variables:
we know a serial no. range
but is it a tight group in that range? bad batch of bolts
all built by the same tech? wrong assembly
something else? pushing the car before it's hot and cracking cold hardware?
associated with a tune? detonation, too much stress?

all I know is I'm not going to get jazzed up about it, until, if and when it happens, then I will do what I can to be made whole

every car has it's gremlins
RS4 DRC and valve deposts, the DRC was addressed by a service action and was rare anyways, the carbon, much ado about nothing, imo

e46 M3, rod bearings

e39 M5, cylinder scoring

Porsche IS seal

cabruce64

You've raised some valid points... but like I said what's reported here isn't representative of the problem by any stretch of the imagination due to the reasons I stated. There are probably less than a few hundred active x63 posters/lurkers vs. listed subscribers [that 280K number] which is normal for most forums (large number of subscribers, much smaller number of active users). If there were a lot more active posters/lurkers you would have seen a more vigilant response IMO and had 10 or 20K posts on the subject instead of 1K.

If you read the TSB it states "affected engine numbers up to 1569xx 60 060658" so up to 60,658 engines - not a subset, which is probably the only fact we have from Merc to go off.

In all honesty there is too much speculation as I mentioned in my previous post due to the lack of facts from Mercedes and the way they have managed this issue which IMO is the most disappointing piece of the whole puzzle. I mean it's not like a known design floor in a fuel pump or something it's a failure that can destroy the engine FFS.

Anyways to pay $4-5K to have the top end pulled down and fixed with say Weistec head studs is peace of mind IMO. Hey I could probably safely fit an aftermarket turbo after I get this done (that was a joke).

Ingenieur

if you think this site in not statistically significant consider at a given time there are many times as many guests as members viewing, and they seem to have no hesitation to sign up and make 1 post saying their heat bolt failed, lol

this forum alone 245 (62 members & 183 guests) factor of 3
whole site 4651 (387 members and 4264 guests) factor of >10
and 15% of members are in the C63 forum at this time as are 4% of visitors

Merc63

Just had 2 engines go locally. First ones here.


Id say 1 in 50 M156's is having head bolt issues.

Ingenieur

I'm guessing 1 out of 1000 max

I've called all 4 dealers in my area not one has done the service yet (or claims not to have), there were familar with the service notice

there are 20,000 affected engines in the US alone
that would equate to 400 cars...no way it's 2%
I can find only 13

Bud Wilkinson

Lots of guessing on here about it all.
1. affected vehicle %age.
2. cause of failure.
3. miles before failure.
4. running conditions of failed vehicles.

I can only say that the bottom line is if MB knows enough about it to produce a TSB containing corrective action and updated parts then they know there is a problem. That being said they should step up and fix the problem regardless of how many or if they have failed yet.
Shame on you Mercedes Benz for letting us, your flagship AMG vehicle owners, just twist in the wind.

One of the wildcards in the equation is also the long term effectiveness of the updated MB parts in question.
As long as you were doing an update why not add the stem to head radius to the fastener. Costs nothing really. The updated part does not include this feature either and IMHO would have stopped the whole problem if the original part had it.

Damn It Man. Own up to your mistake / problem Mercedes. I just wana my car again without worrying if it will fail today.

DuaneC63

My thoughts exactly. Some dealers are going to bat for their customers and some are not. Shame on MBZ for letting it's owners twist in the wind.

Bud Wilkinson

The real shame of that is that the dealer even has to "go to bat" for the customer at all. The manufacture needs to be leading the charge, not hiding behind its franchised dealers. After all they did produce the TSB for updated parts and repair procedures and publish it.
This is a KNOWN PROBLEM. Clean up your mess.
I Call

Ingenieur

how many people have had failures (out of warranty) that MB did not cover?

bhamg

No one knows. I do know this though. Since I'm the one responsible for this sticky it stands to reason that I've had more than a passing interest in this issue. I had some candid conversations in the "early days" with M-B personnel that someday I'll share if the situation warrants, but only if I'm absolutely certain there'll be no fallout for the individuals involved. That said, my experiences recently suggest that stonewalling this issue will be/is now the official MO going forward. We can expect no information from M-B that adds value to our conversation.

Bud Wilkinson

I'm one

Ingenieur

I seriously doubt you are privy to damaging or confidential informatiom from high level MB management. People that ascend to those positions are loyal and know how to keep their mouth shut, and definitely won't spill the beans to some dude off the street, lol.

One man's 'stonewalling' is anothers pragmatic approach. Only MB knows how many failures happened (they either peformed the work or sold the bolts, except for people who went the stud route) and they must not consider it a significant risk to their business.

I'm guessing as long as the injured party is not threatening lawsuits or internet revenge MB will work with them...if the party is hostile MB has NO choice other than to shutdown and make the party do it the hard way, ie, get a court to MAKE MB fix it...that's how I would approach it. This is business, a financial transaction, a contract, it's nothing personal, MB is a large corporate entity, not a personality.

That is why if I have the issue I will not discuss it until I have been made whole or expended all options trying (you can ask BMW NA about that : ) )

bhamg

Did I say "high-level" dumb***? I'm saying on the service-floor level, where it really counts and where we get real information, not some apologist like you spewing a constant stream of BS. F*** off.

CL66

I know of 3 C63s locally and 1 E63 just from one good friend that works at Canada's biggest Mercedes dealer in the last year as master tech. Granted we have shorter warranty periods then the US but still and that's only one dealer.

If you want factual numbers on engine failures become friends with a master tech at your dealer or service manager they can get you most of the records for past engine failures covered and not covered under warranty they have done. Even at that you won't be able to get service records for warranty/out warranty jobs from other dealers only that one.

Ingenieur

looking at your threads:
18 out of 20 are in this thread (or about head bolts)
join date 8/23
first post 8/25 showing new car
you say it happened 9/28 after 1 week (?) of ownership
took to an indy (?) shop on 10/1
looked at the disassembled engine on 10/17 (indy shop?)
no additonal info as of 10/24


did you approach the dealer?
in writing? show them the TSB?
how about MB USA?
what was their response?

bhamg

^^^ And oh, when you registered a few months ago, didn't you mean to name yourself after "ingenue" instead of "engineer?" Seems that way LOL.

Sincity

I just met someone today that had a '07 ML63 with a failure at 10k miles. He also said that he had to change his headgasket twice. He wasn't sure if it was a head gasket failure or the head bolts failed causing a seal issue.

Ingenieur

simmer down nancy, you'll blow a gasket
why would low-level have MB corporate policy information, board room stuff?

you sound angry: remember, anger is like cancer, instead of flesh it eats happiness

now stop pumping the family pooch and learn to control your temper, you seem like a small, angry child

Ingenieur

wow, so clever, a legend in your own mind...and a joke to all others

did your parents have any kids who aren't mouth breathers?

Ingenieur

a good buddy from school is the service manager at the largest dealer in my area, a good sized city...he hasn't seen one yet

you can get a service history VIN specific for all work at all dealers
I got one for my car, every service action, oil change, etc.
car only had 14.5k miles, but it was 2 pages long

it's called a VMI (for internal use only)
one column has the dealer code associated with the service action

the only action done by my dealer was the CPO stuff
all previous work was done by the dealer the original owner used (and bought it from)

CL66

That's only for your car getting service records for your car is easy if you own the car. But if you are looking for a services records on how many cars this has affected that would be your best way too go about it on multiple cars.

I find that highly highly suspect that youre buddy hasn't seen one if he works at a big dealer, does he also say that he has never seen the TSB as well?

Over here it's so widely known that most performance and mercedes specialists (non dealer) are even highly aware of the head studs problems.

On the problems above about the E46 (rod bearings), E39 M5 (cylinder scoring) that is a little different as it has been addressed as recall not TSB and even out of warranty the dealer will still do the work for free, I worked at BMW as master tech during that time and did mutliple crank bearing recalls 20-22hr in labor + lots of testing/oil analysis to make sure no bearing shavings made it into rest of the motor.

Merc sticking everyone with the bill out of warranty or even refusing to do the work without major failure is far out of the norm.

VMI is definitely helpful to find out if the car has been worked on and had the problem address or at least if the car has seen symptoms of loosing coolant as has been looked at by a tech. Nowadays alot of dealers don't want too give out VMI info glad you got it, alot of dealers will tell you it's is now proprietary information and you have to call a couple of dealers to get it. The thing is with the VMI if it doesn't say it hasn't been done it's almost impossible to know if they have been changed by a non-dealer already without getting symptoms of the problem and by then it's almost too late.

Ingenieur

correct, they can't do a search across all VIN's for a specific repair code at the dealer level

he looked at the TSB after I asked about it, but I think he was aware of it

when I do internet searches for the issue this site primarily comes up, can't find any reference to the issue on German sites, and only reference to here on UK sites, which leads me to believe it's not widespread

the e46 bearing issue was NOT a recall (it is what led to my suit against BMW NA in which I prevailed) it was a service action: they would replace the bearings up to 100k miles (still have the letter), it was voluntary, not mandated by the government or a legal settlement...SI B 11 04 04 (US), in the letter they call it a 'service action'

I owned a RS4 and was concerned about the intake valve deposit issue (non-issue?) so I sent a letter to the Audi USA president (he's since moved to the top post at Infinity)...he replied and we spoke, he put me in touch with his assistant for any future needs. I once sent her a query about what oil the tranny & diff needed, she emailed that she'd send it to the appropriate parties. 2 days later Fedex delivered enough for 2 changes plus some other swag. He also called me personally and said if I wanted he would arrange for a local dealer to a valve clean for free, which they did. He also authorized install of H&R springs during the DRC service action repair, with no warranty voiding. I believe if these companies are dealt with in a respectful and confidential manner they will respond in kind.

It's a business, look at it like this:
say 2 out of 100 are affected (highly unlikely), just easy numbers for discussion purposes
preventative action $1000
after failure $5000 (average, no major collateral damage)
one will cost 95 x 1000 or 95000
the other 2 x 5000 or 10000
which would the prudent business do? how much is customer 'good will' worth?

this is not worth losing sleep over or wringing hands...if it happens I will deal with it, until then, who really cares? other than for the technical discussions it spurs and the internet engineering analysis...personally I think the wrong type of screw was used (as did MB since they changed it) imho an internal should only be used when clamping force is the primary resisting mechanism and shear the secondary...

in this case the force is tension, almost all tension, which is variable and cyclic due to the combustion process and outward pressure on the head...the bolt takes the whole load, no help from clamping force...the screw head is 'sucked' into the opening due to the internal void collapsing/flexing due to the torqued tension and the head being blown outward by combustion...a solid external head is much better in this application...I don't think corrosion, etc., has much to do with it...just the wrong bolt selected for ease of assembly/automation...

bhamg

I see you're not above some major anonymous chest puffery - you must be the only one here to access top management - LOL. You might impress others here which is clearly your intent but as far as I'm concerned you can take clown show on the road.

Merc63

Too many big words in this thread.

Ill be switching out a local guys bolts to studs in a couple weeks. Changing valve buckets out as well.

Perhaps everyone should donate to my time and I will write a detailed DIY.

CL66

I guess you guys got a ****ty class action stateside because in Canada it was an official recall. We replaced alot of complete motors without customers paying a dime our dealer alone has swapped out 30+ motors in a spand of 2 years. Almost all 01-02 E46s M3 are affected by this. I also personally have done between 100-120 complete engine bearing rebuilds/new bearings, crank, etc of other parts and oil analysis cars in a 2 year span. I would do at least 2-3 a week sometimes everyday. The customer never paid out of pocket on top of that BMW canada had to extent warranty to 10 years/200,000kms as well as provide free maintenance for an extra 4 years after warranty runs out (Exactly like M maintenance program, just extended 4 years after your warranty runs out)

I don't really understand how you can say why worry about it for the headbolts. The only reason for failure is crappy headbolt material prone to flexing and stretching which is all on the manufacturer it should be address by a recall not a TSB that is voluntary.

I don't understand you dealing with it...You'd rather replace a blown motor and associated costs then replacing headstud the prices vary ridiculously. Even if you get an incredible deal for a motor you aren't getting it under 8-10k with full wiring + proper ecu/tcu calibration then you still have labor on top of that easily a 12-15k if everything goes perfectly well and that's getting stupid lucky finding a cheap motor.