M156 head bolt problems
10-29-2013, 03:52 PM
#526
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CL600
What are you charging the guy if you don't mind me asking? Will you be switching out the studs with the ARP headbolts that weistec uses?
10-29-2013, 04:43 PM
#527
Originally Posted by bhamg
Did I say "high-level" dumb***? I'm saying on the service-floor level, where it really counts and where we get real information, not some apologist like you spewing a constant stream of BS. F*** off.
You seem to be hypersensetive and insecure in your skin.
You do not need to be afraid of me, we'll never meet, I am here, and you are where ever they corral people like you.
I never said that the 'high-level' people shared trade/corporate secrets
as you implied they did. You and your secret squirrel gossip, lol
10-29-2013, 05:16 PM
#528
It was not class action BMW took it upon theirselves to do it...
I didn't think it was done anywhere but NA, wasn't done in the UK or Germany? it also included a 100k/6 year warranty extension
afaik from my suit it was the same for all of NA, at least that is what the letter said, quote:
Q4 What markets does this action affect?
A4 NA, basically the USA and Canada.
Q13 Will BMW initiate a recall?
A13 No, a service action.
When my bearings were removed at 99k miles they were perfect, almost new, and worn in so they would have never been a problem (they gave me the bearings). I was told that if they made it to 20k miles they had loosened up enough and the risk was past. The issue was they were too tight when new, and if run hard like on the Autobahn and expanded they may bind (which in turn damaged pumps if they started to shed material and plugging up the oiling passages, then bang!). Almost all of the failures I heard of were in Germany. They tried to mitigate the issue with thicker oil, going from 5W30 to 10W60, only a band-aid. They hired an engineering firm named Nowack (they tune BMW's also) to do the analysis and they found the root cause, which was acerbated by the long crank whipping at high revs. Funny thing the M roadsters were not included, no failures (lower 7600 redline - reason?).
The fix here was an in car replacement of the rod bearings, mine was done improperly and failed, so I sued and got the money for a new engine (MRSP plus rate labor at my dealers cost) + lawyer fees.
They made statements that were false:
the SI counter is fixed at 14k
it's not, it = 666 x OBC avg mpg
that a counter indicated that I mechanically over-reved the engine:
the counter actully accumulated time >7800 (redline/fuel cut-out = 8000) in seconds, mine had 20 seconds in 100k miles or 2500 hours of operation
which means I spent 20 seconds >7800 but <8000 in over 10,000 shifts
the flag for >8000 mechanical over-rev was not set
they also said I sped (ECU said 134 mph)
my counter was the speed limiter was 155
the decision was reached before I left the courthouse...
in the US alone 25,000 M156 engines are affected (estimated 2010 MY)
There only 4000 M3's affected in NA, it cost 6 million for the action
the cost for MB would be closer to the 50 to 75 range...
why worry about anything I have no control over? I'll deal with it if it happens, until then, why sweat it?
My car is under the base and extended CPO warranty.
If it fails, a very small chance, then I will deal with it one on one with MB USA.
Why spend money on something that may never happen (preventative) or that by having it done may cause more issues due to shoddy workmanship, been down that road, lol.
If the car blows, and they won't fix it, I'll sue. But most likely I will sell it before it does (has 15k now and I average 5k a year and usually keep them for 5-6 years, so 50k or so). And let the buyer beware: sure is enough info out there if he does his research.
even if 20k to fix (if I decide to do so) that won't break me, if 20k is an issue after working for 40 years, I have bigger problems...
I didn't think it was done anywhere but NA, wasn't done in the UK or Germany? it also included a 100k/6 year warranty extension
afaik from my suit it was the same for all of NA, at least that is what the letter said, quote:
Q4 What markets does this action affect?
A4 NA, basically the USA and Canada.
Q13 Will BMW initiate a recall?
A13 No, a service action.
When my bearings were removed at 99k miles they were perfect, almost new, and worn in so they would have never been a problem (they gave me the bearings). I was told that if they made it to 20k miles they had loosened up enough and the risk was past. The issue was they were too tight when new, and if run hard like on the Autobahn and expanded they may bind (which in turn damaged pumps if they started to shed material and plugging up the oiling passages, then bang!). Almost all of the failures I heard of were in Germany. They tried to mitigate the issue with thicker oil, going from 5W30 to 10W60, only a band-aid. They hired an engineering firm named Nowack (they tune BMW's also) to do the analysis and they found the root cause, which was acerbated by the long crank whipping at high revs. Funny thing the M roadsters were not included, no failures (lower 7600 redline - reason?).
The fix here was an in car replacement of the rod bearings, mine was done improperly and failed, so I sued and got the money for a new engine (MRSP plus rate labor at my dealers cost) + lawyer fees.
They made statements that were false:
the SI counter is fixed at 14k
it's not, it = 666 x OBC avg mpg
that a counter indicated that I mechanically over-reved the engine:
the counter actully accumulated time >7800 (redline/fuel cut-out = 8000) in seconds, mine had 20 seconds in 100k miles or 2500 hours of operation
which means I spent 20 seconds >7800 but <8000 in over 10,000 shifts
the flag for >8000 mechanical over-rev was not set
they also said I sped (ECU said 134 mph)
my counter was the speed limiter was 155
the decision was reached before I left the courthouse...
in the US alone 25,000 M156 engines are affected (estimated 2010 MY)
There only 4000 M3's affected in NA, it cost 6 million for the action
the cost for MB would be closer to the 50 to 75 range...
why worry about anything I have no control over? I'll deal with it if it happens, until then, why sweat it?
My car is under the base and extended CPO warranty.
If it fails, a very small chance, then I will deal with it one on one with MB USA.
Why spend money on something that may never happen (preventative) or that by having it done may cause more issues due to shoddy workmanship, been down that road, lol.
If the car blows, and they won't fix it, I'll sue. But most likely I will sell it before it does (has 15k now and I average 5k a year and usually keep them for 5-6 years, so 50k or so). And let the buyer beware: sure is enough info out there if he does his research.
even if 20k to fix (if I decide to do so) that won't break me, if 20k is an issue after working for 40 years, I have bigger problems...
I guess you guys got a ****ty class action stateside because in Canada it was an official recall. We replaced alot of complete motors without customers paying a dime our dealer alone has swapped out 30+ motors in a spand of 2 years. Almost all 01-02 E46s M3 are affected by this. I also personally have done between 100-120 complete engine bearing rebuilds/new bearings, crank, etc of other parts and oil analysis cars in a 2 year span. I would do at least 2-3 a week sometimes everyday. The customer never paid out of pocket on top of that BMW canada had to extent warranty to 10 years/200,000kms as well as provide free maintenance for an extra 4 years after warranty runs out (Exactly like M maintenance program, just extended 4 years after your warranty runs out)
I don't really understand how you can say why worry about it for the headbolts. The only reason for failure is crappy headbolt material prone to flexing and stretching which is all on the manufacturer it should be address by a recall not a TSB that is voluntary.
I don't understand you dealing with it...You'd rather replace a blown motor and associated costs then replacing headstud the prices vary ridiculously. Even if you get an incredible deal for a motor you aren't getting it under 8-10k with full wiring + proper ecu/tcu calibration then you still have labor on top of that easily a 12-15k if everything goes perfectly well and that's getting stupid lucky finding a cheap motor.
I don't really understand how you can say why worry about it for the headbolts. The only reason for failure is crappy headbolt material prone to flexing and stretching which is all on the manufacturer it should be address by a recall not a TSB that is voluntary.
I don't understand you dealing with it...You'd rather replace a blown motor and associated costs then replacing headstud the prices vary ridiculously. Even if you get an incredible deal for a motor you aren't getting it under 8-10k with full wiring + proper ecu/tcu calibration then you still have labor on top of that easily a 12-15k if everything goes perfectly well and that's getting stupid lucky finding a cheap motor.
Last edited by Ingenieur; 10-29-2013 at 05:24 PM.
10-29-2013, 05:48 PM
#529
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C63AMG, NIssan NX2000, Pontiac Fiero GT
Geez guys all this vitriol makes me feel like I haven't babbled so much after all. Although I promised not to I will give a brief summary of the MB posture stateside shown in a class action suit. First a brief word on US Fed courts-they have taken over class action suits because of decades of frivilous settlements enriching lawyers and shorting plaintiffs. Probably needed , but damage to our head bolt issue, I think.
So these 2003-2009 W 211's leaked gas enough to puddle in the car, on the foor, and soak the rear seats. The MB dealers kept replacing the part under warranty, but not beyond. Class action with plaintiffs in several states. Fed court threw out the claims concerning extended warranty because "all parts fail eventually." They allowed the suit based upon states with fraud laws. Apparently some owners bought used and the sellers purposely witheld the information from buyers.
I was shouted down suggesting class action and I believe now (reluctantly) it is a losing
proposition. If this thread is of value it might be to determine e.g., one of two suppliers always (apparently) supplied good head bolts with logo. Few would pull a valve cover to read bolt heads. Some one needs to try a lighted camera with 90 degree head which could be snaked in from the oil cap to look at the left bank. Absurd? Maybe.
This one still tickles me...from an irate reader to my plea for a failed headbolt. Something like "Why would I want to send a failed headbolt to some weirdo on the internet?" I confess, I really want to melt 'em down for their carbon content.
So these 2003-2009 W 211's leaked gas enough to puddle in the car, on the foor, and soak the rear seats. The MB dealers kept replacing the part under warranty, but not beyond. Class action with plaintiffs in several states. Fed court threw out the claims concerning extended warranty because "all parts fail eventually." They allowed the suit based upon states with fraud laws. Apparently some owners bought used and the sellers purposely witheld the information from buyers.
I was shouted down suggesting class action and I believe now (reluctantly) it is a losing
proposition. If this thread is of value it might be to determine e.g., one of two suppliers always (apparently) supplied good head bolts with logo. Few would pull a valve cover to read bolt heads. Some one needs to try a lighted camera with 90 degree head which could be snaked in from the oil cap to look at the left bank. Absurd? Maybe.
This one still tickles me...from an irate reader to my plea for a failed headbolt. Something like "Why would I want to send a failed headbolt to some weirdo on the internet?" I confess, I really want to melt 'em down for their carbon content.
Last edited by motoman; 10-29-2013 at 05:55 PM.
10-30-2013, 04:21 PM
#530
I'm not sure what can be done until one actually suffers damages, diminished values generally don't cut it
it's a frustraing situation but why fret over things I have no control over? I made an investment (really a depreciating asset or consumable commodity) andjust want to enjoy it, and so far everytime I start it up or hear it burble/gurgle/pop I smile
I may try to see if I can get some satisfaction but I will do so privately
it's a frustraing situation but why fret over things I have no control over? I made an investment (really a depreciating asset or consumable commodity) andjust want to enjoy it, and so far everytime I start it up or hear it burble/gurgle/pop I smile
I may try to see if I can get some satisfaction but I will do so privately
10-30-2013, 05:38 PM
#531
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2007 Mercedes Benz CLS63 AMG
Wow Dude. Take it easy.
looking at your threads:
18 out of 20 are in this thread (or about head bolts)
join date 8/23
first post 8/25 showing new car
you say it happened 9/28 after 1 week (?) of ownership
took to an indy (?) shop on 10/1
looked at the disassembled engine on 10/17 (indy shop?)
no additonal info as of 10/24
did you approach the dealer?
in writing? show them the TSB?
how about MB USA?
what was their response?
18 out of 20 are in this thread (or about head bolts)
join date 8/23
first post 8/25 showing new car
you say it happened 9/28 after 1 week (?) of ownership
took to an indy (?) shop on 10/1
looked at the disassembled engine on 10/17 (indy shop?)
no additonal info as of 10/24
did you approach the dealer?
in writing? show them the TSB?
how about MB USA?
what was their response?
So First of all I had a previous account on MB World as this is my 3rd MB. Somehow the account was not accessible. Easiest answer was to create a new one. Done.
I believe you that 18 of my 20 posts are regarding the broken head bolts as that is key in my recent life.
I may have posted on 9/28 about the broken head bolt but the Low Coolant warning did come on within the first week of ownership. I was also in a certain amount of denial when the low coolant light came on and began researching on this very forum and others. The real shister in my mind here is the Used Car Dealer that sold me the car. There is little chance that he didn't know of the Low Coolant warning prior to the sale and did not disclose it to me.
Post dates do not mean that is when something happened. I don't really spend a lot of time daily on any forum.
The MB dealer is not very good here in this area on many levels so I have a very trusted MB trained Indy that I go to here. This does make it hard to show "Customer Loyalty" to the local dealership.
When I spoke to the local MB dealer Service Manager on 9/20 he had "Never heard of it". I did not have a copy of the TSB So I chose to get my Indy shop on the case.
I did not inform anyone in writing nor did I contact MBUSA about this. My experience with other manufactures such as Acura is that when a problem is found and a course of action laid out in a TSB, the production line is stopped and the update is immediately implemented with the affected VIN recorded. A letter is subsequently sent to the owner of affected VIN cars in what ever wave determined and they are invited to come in for inspection and / or correction. Cases that have been repaired by the customer prior to the TSB are reimbursed and cases that are currently underway are covered usually at 100%.
Car was actually taken to the Indy shop on Friday 9/20 and the funding and go ahead on the work given on Wednesday 9/25.
Yes, Inspected disassembled engine at Indy.
Currently it has been determined that a piston/ring/rod set was not needed as these were not Hydraulically damaged.
It is getting the SLS lifters, rod and main bearings, TTY bolts, seals and gaskets as needed. I have opted out of the Wistech studs due to cost.
So Car failed due to an engineering flaw. I chose to use my own repair facility because of flaws in the local dealership. I accept that responsibility and am paying for it. After all the car is way too nice not to fix it right.
The fact remains the failure is common to this engine and due to an engineering flaw in one component affecting THE major assembly of any vehicle.
I am not sure what your point was in calling me out for just saying "I'm one".
Just adding myself to the count pardner, that's all.
Do I think MB should step up and clean up their mess? Hell yes I do. Is that Wrong? I don't think so.
Last edited by Bud Wilkinson; 10-30-2013 at 05:53 PM.
10-30-2013, 05:57 PM
#532
stalk? I don't even know where you live?
I looked at your posts in a public domain to get a feel for the history
not sure why you say you were 'called out'
How do you know whether MB would have helped if you didn't ask? You did not give them the chance to 'clean up their mess'. It's a business, they run it, not the consumer, and they make their decisions. Most manufactuers do not make changes retroactively unless it involves safety or there is a large chance of financial exposure. It took BMW 6 years to own up to the bearing issues, Audi almost 5 for the DRC.
It is not reasonable to assail an entity if you do not give them the opportunity to make it right.
is the car fixed? do you know at what location on the head the bolt failed?
rhetorical questions:
what can anyone do prior to failure?
how about after failure?
who's going to pay for any legal action that may be suggested by responses to the above questions?
Has anyone written a reasoned and compelling letter to MB asking them to come up with a solution? or are people just belly-aching?
It may not help, but it can't hurt, just another piece of paper in the trail if it ends up in litigation. I prefer a more confidential (and selfish) approach, I may contact them and see what they can do, but I will keep all these dicussions confidential or they will have no choice but to shut down.
I looked at your posts in a public domain to get a feel for the history
not sure why you say you were 'called out'
How do you know whether MB would have helped if you didn't ask? You did not give them the chance to 'clean up their mess'. It's a business, they run it, not the consumer, and they make their decisions. Most manufactuers do not make changes retroactively unless it involves safety or there is a large chance of financial exposure. It took BMW 6 years to own up to the bearing issues, Audi almost 5 for the DRC.
It is not reasonable to assail an entity if you do not give them the opportunity to make it right.
is the car fixed? do you know at what location on the head the bolt failed?
rhetorical questions:
what can anyone do prior to failure?
how about after failure?
who's going to pay for any legal action that may be suggested by responses to the above questions?
Has anyone written a reasoned and compelling letter to MB asking them to come up with a solution? or are people just belly-aching?
It may not help, but it can't hurt, just another piece of paper in the trail if it ends up in litigation. I prefer a more confidential (and selfish) approach, I may contact them and see what they can do, but I will keep all these dicussions confidential or they will have no choice but to shut down.
Stalk much? Are you a lawyer or something?
So First of all I had a previous account on MB World as this is my 3rd MB. Somehow the account was not accessible. Easiest answer was to create a new one. Done.
I believe you that 18 of my 20 posts are regarding the broken head bolts as that is key in my recent life.
I may have posted on 9/28 about the broken head bolt but the Low Coolant warning did come on within the first week of ownership. I was also in a certain amount of denial when the low coolant light came on and began researching on this very forum and others.
Post dates do not mean that is when something happened. I don't really spend a lot of time daily on any forum.
The MB dealer is not very good here in this area on many levels so I have a very trusted MB trained Indy that I go to here. This does make it hard to show "Customer Loyalty" to the local dealership.
When I spoke to the local MB dealer Service Manager on 9/20 he had "Never heard of it". I did not have a copy of the TSB So I chose to get my Indy shop on the case.
I did not inform anyone in writing nor did I contact MBUSA about this. My experience with other manufactures such as Acura is that when a problem is found and a course of action laid out in a TSB, the production line is stopped and the update is immediately implemented with the affected VIN recorded. A letter is subsequently sent to the owner of affected VIN cars in what ever wave determined and they are invited to come in for inspection and / or correction. Cases that have been repaired by the customer prior to the TSB are reimbursed and cases that are currently underway are covered usually at 100%.
Car was actually taken to the Indy shop on Friday 9/20 and the funding and go ahead on the work given on Wednesday 9/25.
Yes, Inspected disassembled engine at Indy.
Currently it has been determined that a piston/ring/rod set was not needed as these were not Hydraulically damaged.
It is getting the SLS lifters, rod and main bearings, TTY bolts, seals and gaskets as needed. I have opted out of the Wistech studs due to cost.
So Car failed due to an engineering flaw. I chose to use my own repair facility because of flaws in the local dealership. I accept that responsibility and am paying for it.
The fact remains the failure is common and due to an engineering flaw in one component affecting THE major assembly of any vehicle.
I am not sure what your point was in calling me out for just saying "I'm one".
Just adding myself to the count pardner, that's all.
Do I think MB should step up and clean up their mess? Hell yes I do. Is that Wrong? I don't think so.
So First of all I had a previous account on MB World as this is my 3rd MB. Somehow the account was not accessible. Easiest answer was to create a new one. Done.
I believe you that 18 of my 20 posts are regarding the broken head bolts as that is key in my recent life.
I may have posted on 9/28 about the broken head bolt but the Low Coolant warning did come on within the first week of ownership. I was also in a certain amount of denial when the low coolant light came on and began researching on this very forum and others.
Post dates do not mean that is when something happened. I don't really spend a lot of time daily on any forum.
The MB dealer is not very good here in this area on many levels so I have a very trusted MB trained Indy that I go to here. This does make it hard to show "Customer Loyalty" to the local dealership.
When I spoke to the local MB dealer Service Manager on 9/20 he had "Never heard of it". I did not have a copy of the TSB So I chose to get my Indy shop on the case.
I did not inform anyone in writing nor did I contact MBUSA about this. My experience with other manufactures such as Acura is that when a problem is found and a course of action laid out in a TSB, the production line is stopped and the update is immediately implemented with the affected VIN recorded. A letter is subsequently sent to the owner of affected VIN cars in what ever wave determined and they are invited to come in for inspection and / or correction. Cases that have been repaired by the customer prior to the TSB are reimbursed and cases that are currently underway are covered usually at 100%.
Car was actually taken to the Indy shop on Friday 9/20 and the funding and go ahead on the work given on Wednesday 9/25.
Yes, Inspected disassembled engine at Indy.
Currently it has been determined that a piston/ring/rod set was not needed as these were not Hydraulically damaged.
It is getting the SLS lifters, rod and main bearings, TTY bolts, seals and gaskets as needed. I have opted out of the Wistech studs due to cost.
So Car failed due to an engineering flaw. I chose to use my own repair facility because of flaws in the local dealership. I accept that responsibility and am paying for it.
The fact remains the failure is common and due to an engineering flaw in one component affecting THE major assembly of any vehicle.
I am not sure what your point was in calling me out for just saying "I'm one".
Just adding myself to the count pardner, that's all.
Do I think MB should step up and clean up their mess? Hell yes I do. Is that Wrong? I don't think so.
Last edited by Ingenieur; 10-30-2013 at 06:00 PM.
10-30-2013, 06:31 PM
#533
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Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 64
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2007 Mercedes Benz CLS63 AMG
Really Dude
stalk? I don't even know where you live?
I looked at your posts in a public domain to get a feel for the history
not sure why you say you were 'called out'
How do you know whether MB would have helped if you didn't ask? You did not give them the chance to 'clean up their mess'. It's a business, they run it, not the consumer, and they make their decisions. Most manufactuers do not make changes retroactively unless it involves safety or there is a large chance of financial exposure. It took BMW 6 years to own up to the bearing issues, Audi almost 5 for the DRC.
It is not reasonable to assail an entity if you do not give them the opportunity to make it right.
is the car fixed? do you know at what location on the head the bolt failed?......
I looked at your posts in a public domain to get a feel for the history
not sure why you say you were 'called out'
How do you know whether MB would have helped if you didn't ask? You did not give them the chance to 'clean up their mess'. It's a business, they run it, not the consumer, and they make their decisions. Most manufactuers do not make changes retroactively unless it involves safety or there is a large chance of financial exposure. It took BMW 6 years to own up to the bearing issues, Audi almost 5 for the DRC.
It is not reasonable to assail an entity if you do not give them the opportunity to make it right.
is the car fixed? do you know at what location on the head the bolt failed?......
Stalk? = Even though your posts record is public I have no idea or care of your activity or history here or anywhere.
Call me out? = Why even quote me @sswipe?
If you were to read the entire post you might have run across this where I said;
"My experience with other manufactures such as Acura is that when a problem is found and a course of action laid out in a TSB, the production line is stopped and the update is immediately implemented with the affected VIN recorded. A letter is subsequently sent to the owner of affected VIN cars in what ever wave determined and they are invited to come in for inspection and / or correction. Cases that have been repaired by the customer prior to the TSB are reimbursed and cases that are currently underway are covered usually at 100%."
It is reasonable to expect an entity to fix something they know is not right. Also just as reasonable to assail them for not taking proper action. This is what I mean by cleaning up their mess. That is how a reputable "Business" conducts itself. By taking care of a known negative situation.
The car is being fixed and if you had bothered to look at the posts I made, that you took the time to look up but not read, you would have seen the pictures I posted of the failed bolt and it's position of outside end of head at cyl #8.
I'm thinking you get a lot of private satisfaction.
Good Day Sir
Last edited by Bud Wilkinson; 10-30-2013 at 06:35 PM.
10-30-2013, 07:11 PM
#534
since when is stating fact and truth troublemaking?
bhamg couldn't find his @$$ with both hands
This thread is not 'mine', just asking the question what can anyone do? who will front the $$$ ? otherwise it's just idle pointless chatter...
You seem agitated and angry, but I have a feeling that it stems from things in your real life, not the internet...I did not cause your problems, nor can I solve them...own them.
I read that, it is the exception, not the rule...generally no action is taken unless it is a safety recall mandated or may result in large financial exposure, and/or if it results in litigation and their position is not strong.
I also read your post, I do not see where it stated which bolt failed. (just reread it?)
YOU say it is not right, as if you are the arbitrator, they say the failure rate is low so no action required until it happens...there is a reason there are warranty laws and limitations...no one would enter into business if they had unlimited, indefinite exposure...but we do not know what MB would have done for you: you never asked
Now you slander MB, as they are not a 'reputable' business because they do not assess risk and react with their business strategy as you think they should...
I'm thinking you neither get nor give satisfaction
you sound emotionally constipated, lighten up skippy you'll live longer. much to the consternation of some I'm sure
good day sir...I said GOOD DAY!!!!
bhamg couldn't find his @$$ with both hands
This thread is not 'mine', just asking the question what can anyone do? who will front the $$$ ? otherwise it's just idle pointless chatter...
You seem agitated and angry, but I have a feeling that it stems from things in your real life, not the internet...I did not cause your problems, nor can I solve them...own them.
I read that, it is the exception, not the rule...generally no action is taken unless it is a safety recall mandated or may result in large financial exposure, and/or if it results in litigation and their position is not strong.
I also read your post, I do not see where it stated which bolt failed. (just reread it?)
YOU say it is not right, as if you are the arbitrator, they say the failure rate is low so no action required until it happens...there is a reason there are warranty laws and limitations...no one would enter into business if they had unlimited, indefinite exposure...but we do not know what MB would have done for you: you never asked
Now you slander MB, as they are not a 'reputable' business because they do not assess risk and react with their business strategy as you think they should...
I'm thinking you neither get nor give satisfaction
you sound emotionally constipated, lighten up skippy you'll live longer. much to the consternation of some I'm sure
good day sir...I said GOOD DAY!!!!
Ohhh I see you're a trouble seeker. Pot stirrer or something huh. bhamg had you pegged from the start then? You are Way Better than the rest of us. I guess this is your thread now so I'll just reply the one more time and bow out.
Stalk? = Even though your posts record is public I have no idea or care of your activity or history here or anywhere.
Call me out? = Why even quote me @sswipe?
If you were to read the entire post you might have run across this where I said;
"My experience with other manufactures such as Acura is that when a problem is found and a course of action laid out in a TSB, the production line is stopped and the update is immediately implemented with the affected VIN recorded. A letter is subsequently sent to the owner of affected VIN cars in what ever wave determined and they are invited to come in for inspection and / or correction. Cases that have been repaired by the customer prior to the TSB are reimbursed and cases that are currently underway are covered usually at 100%."
It is reasonable to expect an entity to fix something they know is not right. Also just as reasonable to assail them for not taking proper action. This is what I mean by cleaning up their mess. That is how a reputable "Business" conducts itself. By taking care of a known negative situation.
The car is being fixed and if you had bothered to look at the posts I made, that you took the time to look up but not read, you would have seen the pictures I posted of the failed bolt and it's position of outside end of head at cyl #8.
I'm thinking you get a lot of private satisfaction.
Good Day Sir
Stalk? = Even though your posts record is public I have no idea or care of your activity or history here or anywhere.
Call me out? = Why even quote me @sswipe?
If you were to read the entire post you might have run across this where I said;
"My experience with other manufactures such as Acura is that when a problem is found and a course of action laid out in a TSB, the production line is stopped and the update is immediately implemented with the affected VIN recorded. A letter is subsequently sent to the owner of affected VIN cars in what ever wave determined and they are invited to come in for inspection and / or correction. Cases that have been repaired by the customer prior to the TSB are reimbursed and cases that are currently underway are covered usually at 100%."
It is reasonable to expect an entity to fix something they know is not right. Also just as reasonable to assail them for not taking proper action. This is what I mean by cleaning up their mess. That is how a reputable "Business" conducts itself. By taking care of a known negative situation.
The car is being fixed and if you had bothered to look at the posts I made, that you took the time to look up but not read, you would have seen the pictures I posted of the failed bolt and it's position of outside end of head at cyl #8.
I'm thinking you get a lot of private satisfaction.
Good Day Sir
Last edited by Ingenieur; 10-30-2013 at 07:17 PM.
10-30-2013, 08:36 PM
#535
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2007 Mercedes Benz CLS63 AMG
since when is stating fact and truth troublemaking?
bhamg couldn't find his @$$ with both hands
This thread is not 'mine', just asking the question what can anyone do? who will front the $$$ ? otherwise it's just idle pointless chatter...
You seem agitated and angry, but I have a feeling that it stems from things in your real life, not the internet...I did not cause your problems, nor can I solve them...own them.
I read that, it is the exception, not the rule...generally no action is taken unless it is a safety recall mandated or may result in large financial exposure, and/or if it results in litigation and their position is not strong.
I also read your post, I do not see where it stated which bolt failed. (just reread it?)
YOU say it is not right, as if you are the arbitrator, they say the failure rate is low so no action required until it happens...there is a reason there are warranty laws and limitations...no one would enter into business if they had unlimited, indefinite exposure...but we do not know what MB would have done for you: you never asked
Now you slander MB, as they are not a 'reputable' business because they do not assess risk and react with their business strategy as you think they should...
I'm thinking you neither get nor give satisfaction
you sound emotionally constipated, lighten up skippy you'll live longer. much to the consternation of some I'm sure
good day sir...I said GOOD DAY!!!!
bhamg couldn't find his @$$ with both hands
This thread is not 'mine', just asking the question what can anyone do? who will front the $$$ ? otherwise it's just idle pointless chatter...
You seem agitated and angry, but I have a feeling that it stems from things in your real life, not the internet...I did not cause your problems, nor can I solve them...own them.
I read that, it is the exception, not the rule...generally no action is taken unless it is a safety recall mandated or may result in large financial exposure, and/or if it results in litigation and their position is not strong.
I also read your post, I do not see where it stated which bolt failed. (just reread it?)
YOU say it is not right, as if you are the arbitrator, they say the failure rate is low so no action required until it happens...there is a reason there are warranty laws and limitations...no one would enter into business if they had unlimited, indefinite exposure...but we do not know what MB would have done for you: you never asked
Now you slander MB, as they are not a 'reputable' business because they do not assess risk and react with their business strategy as you think they should...
I'm thinking you neither get nor give satisfaction
you sound emotionally constipated, lighten up skippy you'll live longer. much to the consternation of some I'm sure
good day sir...I said GOOD DAY!!!!
10-31-2013, 11:38 AM
#537
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C63AMG, NIssan NX2000, Pontiac Fiero GT
Since this thread has gotten wordy...what is your advice on deck and head flatness, on RA (average roughness ) of mating surfaces with the gasket selected ? How do you prepare the surfaces?
I appreciate your contributions. After my failure to obtain a single , broken, headbolt I will be surprised if anyone sends money without more detail.
motoman
10-31-2013, 12:34 PM
#538
Sorry for confusion. We don't retorque after run in.
We install one stud, torque to 100ftlbs and keep doing the same till all studs are in at 100ftlbs. Then we go around in sequence and do a final torque to arp spec. This is all done at the same time.
We install one stud, torque to 100ftlbs and keep doing the same till all studs are in at 100ftlbs. Then we go around in sequence and do a final torque to arp spec. This is all done at the same time.
10-31-2013, 12:39 PM
#539
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07 E63 + 07 CLK63CAB
Surface RA, deck flatness, should be obtained from a reputable engine machine shop, dealing in high performance work. As far as the re-torque of the ARP studs, my personal choice would be to recheck these studs for proper torque at least once, if there is indeed a lose of tightness and the bolts need more to return the previous set value then I would again check them after a few more cycles or until there is no more movement and torque remains stable. Always retorque on a completely cold engine block. If ARP studs come pre-stressed then they may hold after first torque is set. BUT!
10-31-2013, 01:20 PM
#540
My intention with the 100ftlbs is to get the arp stud close to what the stock bolt is torqued to. Which I have no clue as its done by angles. This time around I have a gauge torque wrench that reads torque in counter clockwise, so I'll know relatively close how tight they are when
If stock bolts were torqued to arp spec, I would just install the studs and torque once.
If stock bolts were torqued to arp spec, I would just install the studs and torque once.
10-31-2013, 01:28 PM
#541
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07 E63 + 07 CLK63CAB
Just what does ARP suggest for torque on their stud bolts? Reverse torque check was a good idea but do not forget about the use of sealant on the threads of the stock bolts which will influence the static torque until that breaks loose!
10-31-2013, 02:03 PM
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C63AMG, NIssan NX2000, Pontiac Fiero GT
Merc, ARP is a specialist in hi-po fasteners with an extensive catalog tailored to specific engines. They offer studs for M 156, but do not show them in the catalog. OK, but surely specify torque value and procedure? But it sounds like you are estimating ? This can not be correct. The ARP stud material , (dia ? greater), and tightening technique MUST be different. What head gasket is used? Somewhere (could have been diesel and so not relevant) I saw 200 ft lbs. The point is why is this murky information? Critter is right about the deck and head machining. If you check and machining is required I personally would not know where to turn. In a former life I have had terrible experience with so called "custom machine shop" effort . One could not hold a proper bore clearance, requiring sleeving etc etc. I do give credit to MB with the flashing oil temp and digital coolant temp read out. These should be strictly watched. motoman
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Kamal63 (09-13-2016)
10-31-2013, 04:18 PM
#543
Id have to check instructions but I think its aroubd 125 to 135ft lbs for weistecs arp studs.
arp doesnt sell studs for the m156, weistec custom orders them and sells them.. you need specific measurements that would require a dissembled m156 to get.
.
arp doesnt sell studs for the m156, weistec custom orders them and sells them.. you need specific measurements that would require a dissembled m156 to get.
.
11-02-2013, 01:42 PM
#544
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2009 E63
2009 E63 head bolt failure
Hello all. I am new to this forum, and after reading post regarding the m156 head bolt issues, I felt it was important to add mine to the pile in hopes of adding encouragement to mbusa to take a more responsible part in this issue.
I have a 2009 e63 and just crossed over the 60k mile mark. The wife was driving to work last week, exited freeway and as she came to the stop light, car began to idle very rough, check engine light began to flash and smoke. She immediately shutdown vehicle. Waited a few moments, started it back up and made it to the office about 3/4 mile. Check engine light did not come back on, but continued to idle rough.
Took it to my local inde shop, very qualified, for diagnosis, and as I know now, it happens to be the head bolt issue. He took video of coolant gurgling through the head bolt when he manually pressurized the cooling system. Just got a second video of him draining the oil, and as the oil pan bolt was removed, all you see for about 3-4 seconds is coolant pouring out, then the milkshake looking oil followed.
Initiated contact with mbusa, but still in infancy stage with them. Their first statement was I MUST bring the vehicle to a mb dealer for diagnosis. That's BS, engine is already taken apart. Thinking I would need to have it reassemble, towed to dealer for them to have to tear it down again to diagnose.
Anyone have experience with having an inde shop perform repair, while car owner (me) requesting monetary assistance (expecting 100 percent) from mbusa? Help!
P
I have a 2009 e63 and just crossed over the 60k mile mark. The wife was driving to work last week, exited freeway and as she came to the stop light, car began to idle very rough, check engine light began to flash and smoke. She immediately shutdown vehicle. Waited a few moments, started it back up and made it to the office about 3/4 mile. Check engine light did not come back on, but continued to idle rough.
Took it to my local inde shop, very qualified, for diagnosis, and as I know now, it happens to be the head bolt issue. He took video of coolant gurgling through the head bolt when he manually pressurized the cooling system. Just got a second video of him draining the oil, and as the oil pan bolt was removed, all you see for about 3-4 seconds is coolant pouring out, then the milkshake looking oil followed.
Initiated contact with mbusa, but still in infancy stage with them. Their first statement was I MUST bring the vehicle to a mb dealer for diagnosis. That's BS, engine is already taken apart. Thinking I would need to have it reassemble, towed to dealer for them to have to tear it down again to diagnose.
Anyone have experience with having an inde shop perform repair, while car owner (me) requesting monetary assistance (expecting 100 percent) from mbusa? Help!
P
11-02-2013, 02:18 PM
#545
MBWorld Fanatic!
Hello all. I am new to this forum, and after reading post regarding the m156 head bolt issues, I felt it was important to add mine to the pile in hopes of adding encouragement to mbusa to take a more responsible part in this issue.
I have a 2009 e63 and just crossed over the 60k mile mark. The wife was driving to work last week, exited freeway and as she came to the stop light, car began to idle very rough, check engine light began to flash and smoke. She immediately shutdown vehicle. Waited a few moments, started it back up and made it to the office about 3/4 mile. Check engine light did not come back on, but continued to idle rough.
Took it to my local inde shop, very qualified, for diagnosis, and as I know now, it happens to be the head bolt issue. He took video of coolant gurgling through the head bolt when he manually pressurized the cooling system. Just got a second video of him draining the oil, and as the oil pan bolt was removed, all you see for about 3-4 seconds is coolant pouring out, then the milkshake looking oil followed.
Initiated contact with mbusa, but still in infancy stage with them. Their first statement was I MUST bring the vehicle to a mb dealer for diagnosis. That's BS, engine is already taken apart. Thinking I would need to have it reassemble, towed to dealer for them to have to tear it down again to diagnose.
Anyone have experience with having an inde shop perform repair, while car owner (me) requesting monetary assistance (expecting 100 percent) from mbusa? Help!P
I have a 2009 e63 and just crossed over the 60k mile mark. The wife was driving to work last week, exited freeway and as she came to the stop light, car began to idle very rough, check engine light began to flash and smoke. She immediately shutdown vehicle. Waited a few moments, started it back up and made it to the office about 3/4 mile. Check engine light did not come back on, but continued to idle rough.
Took it to my local inde shop, very qualified, for diagnosis, and as I know now, it happens to be the head bolt issue. He took video of coolant gurgling through the head bolt when he manually pressurized the cooling system. Just got a second video of him draining the oil, and as the oil pan bolt was removed, all you see for about 3-4 seconds is coolant pouring out, then the milkshake looking oil followed.
Initiated contact with mbusa, but still in infancy stage with them. Their first statement was I MUST bring the vehicle to a mb dealer for diagnosis. That's BS, engine is already taken apart. Thinking I would need to have it reassemble, towed to dealer for them to have to tear it down again to diagnose.
Anyone have experience with having an inde shop perform repair, while car owner (me) requesting monetary assistance (expecting 100 percent) from mbusa? Help!
POn a good note, you are very lucky your wife realized the problem and she didn't drive it to the point of hydrolock which would have destroyed you entire motor.
11-02-2013, 03:39 PM
#546
Take it to the dealer like they said, why would you argue with them, unless you want to cover the whole job out of your own pocket.
The trend has been a 50percent coverage from MB, 100percent, I guess you can always try.
The trend has been a 50percent coverage from MB, 100percent, I guess you can always try.
11-02-2013, 07:36 PM
#547
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2009 E63
Thanks for the feed back
Duane63 and Merc63, thanks for your feedback. Merc63, ya, don't want to argue with mbusa, just pissed off right now.
I will talk with my mbusa case manager monday and make a decision. I will post how this progresses in hopes to help others.
Do you think the vehicle could be towed 4 miles in the condition it is in? I think its just valve covers and fluids drained. Or for the safety of engine internals, does it has to be reassembled?
I will talk with my mbusa case manager monday and make a decision. I will post how this progresses in hopes to help others.
Do you think the vehicle could be towed 4 miles in the condition it is in? I think its just valve covers and fluids drained. Or for the safety of engine internals, does it has to be reassembled?
11-03-2013, 12:58 AM
#549
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Porsche 911 Turbo S 2014! E63S 14, Audi S8 13, CLS63 12, E550 12, C63 09, all tuned
DuaneC63, tell these guys to just change out the head bolt if there worried about failure. Change one bolt at a time, no need to pull heads, just drain coolant first.
11-03-2013, 05:05 AM
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c32 amg evosport stage 2
Iam wondering if you have to take the cams out first ? or could you change the head bolts one bolt at a time with out taking cam out ?
