Homie C63

Hey guys! I recently bought a p31 sedan... and I have been reading mixed thoughts about tuning on it. Some say do it, some say don't because I will not get too much power because it is already tuned.

So my main question is... will a tuned p31 be more powerful than a tuned regular c63? or will they be the same?

Any additional info related to this will be really helpful! thank you

charliekay

Welcome.

Take a look at this, this gives a comparison between a non-P31 C63 pre and post tune, as well as a P31 C63 pre and post tune.

http://oetuning.com/blog/?p=891

Plenty of tunes that sponsor this site, and plenty that don't.

Talk to Eurocharged, OE Tuning or Weistec and I am sure you will be happy whichever you go.

Homie C63

Thanks brotha!

Superleggera123

you always get gains with a tune, p31 or not.. and power isnt the primary reason for a tune. better throttle response, shift times and overall driving pleasure is greatly increased while meeting the safe standards of your engine. ( depending on who tunes the car) . I personally always go for eurocharged.. best tunes for the money and hands down best customer service.

Diabolis

Bu11*****.

Increased driving pleasure while meeting the safe standards of your engine? Really? What have you been smoking?

A tune will certainly unleash extra power from an artificially restricted car (like the non-P31 C63s) but can not produce any extra power from a non-restricted, naturally aspirated engine without sacrificing something else. Whatever little gains you may be able to get always come at the expense of everyday driveability, engine longevity or a safety margin if you will. Also, it will not do anything for your shift times unless you also modify the TCU (in an automatic of course).

loungn14

PM Sent

Jared.branda

I chose eurocharged for their handheld do it yourself kit in which you can switch back to stock at any time. I have heard Remntech is one of the safer tunes but pretty expensive. Not sure if anyone cam validate that

CarHopper

At this point it is pretty unlikely that you will encounter major issues given how long the major companies have had tunes out for. Sure, you might get little gremlins here and there but it isn't like a base tune is leaning the car out to detonation.

avery.whss

Yeah if anything the tune companies run rich and the factory runs lean...I have proof cause I dyno'd mine stock and it was around 14-15 AF...very lean...and then with the rune it ran around 11.5-12.5

Diabolis

The gains from a tune on an otherwise unmodified engine are going to be marginal at best without sacrificing something else. Unless you change something on the engine itself, I have yet to see any confirmed, documented gains across the entire RPM range that amount to more than 2 to 3%. Yes, I have seen the OE tuning "promotional" graph for the P31 engine tune but I don't buy it.

When you take into account that, say, 20 hp is still under 5% on a 480+ hp motor (which is roughly what a professional race car driver can detect) and add to that the "minor gremlins" as you put it and the possibility that you will get detonation if you put regular instead of premium fuel in the car by mistake, IMHO the ~$1K for the tune is a waste of money. I know that this is a mod-oriented community (pretty much all enthusiast boards are by definition), but the tune alone on a P31 car is about as useful in the real world as a large fin CF diffuser. Looks real nice and all, but the gain is 98% cosmetic and 2% actual. You may get a different throttle response, but you can get the same thing by stepping on the accelerator a little harder and faster. Besides, IMHO a jumpy throttle response is not an advantage in a luxury sports sedan as you can always press the gas pedal more/faster to achieve the same effect, but when the smallest of inputs makes the whole car jerk IMHO you've got a problem, not a performance boost.

I've spent many hours during the last 20 years building, rebuilding, modding, tuning and testing my own bikes and cars, and in particular the two Porsche 928's I've had. I use a SharkTuner 2 (if any of you are interested in what it is and what it does you can read about it at http://www.jdsporsche.com/Mk%202%20sharktuner.html) and have spent many more hours driving them both on and off the track, and I have yet to find that holy grail of hidden power in *any* engine that is properly designed and built without paying the price in some other way. I am not a professional car mechanic (although I have been known to drive one or two to madness with a barrage of endless questions), I know relatively little in comparison about the M156 motor in the C63 as I've only had my C63 for less than a year and I haven't even started to tinker with it, but based on what little I know, the tune on the P31 M156 engine is already pretty much ideally set up. If anyone - and I mean ANYONE, including the tuner companies - is willing to take a chance and disclose to me either publicly or in private how they are getting significant extra power from an M156 motor with the P31/APX/507 tune without any other mods and/or sacrificing driveability or safety margins (which obviously includes tuning for higher octane fuel), I'll pay you the going rate for your tune without actually getting it. Contact me on or off the board, I will execute and mail you a non-disclosure agreement of your choosing, and you can simply tell me what parameters you're modifying and why. You show me how you can get, say, a 5% increase over stock - roughly 25 hp - without sacrificing driveability, without "gremlins or glitches", without tuning for higher octane gas and without any other physical engine mods from a 2013 P31/APX/507 engine and you'll make $1K for your time alone. That's it. Any takers?

CarHopper

I see where you are going with the P31 argument and that I can get on board with. However, non-PP c63's see large gains which make it well worth it for many as there is thread after thread on how happy people are with their tune.

On a side note, if you "accidentally" put regular instead of premium in then that is your own fault. Then again, some of the questions I see here seem like common sense to me but apparently aren't. I'm sure that works both ways though.

A P31 won't see the gains a non-PP will get, however, you will see gains.

Diabolis

Agreed on all three counts.

I don't know why MB artificially restricted the M156 engine in the non-P31 cars as it certainly has the ability to produce the extra power (probably marketing). If I had a non-P31 C63 or for that matter a diesel or anything with a forced induction engine, I'd be first one lining up to get a tune and get some additional power.

P.S. I am very much in favor of tuning a car after the engine has somehow been modified (i.e. intake, exhaust or internally) as that will indeed allow the motor to get the most out of the mod, but the tune on its own on an otherwise completely stock, unrestricted car will do very little.

Jacob-63

Go with either one of these;

1- Weistec
2- OE Tuning
3- Eurocharged

They all provide high quality tuning and high quality customer service

Homie C63

Wonder why not a lot of people recommend Renntech!
Almost everyone recommends one of the above 3!

CarHopper

The thing about Renntech is the price. You'll get customer service but you also will get good customer service from the other tuners.

I'm not sure on this, but I know that BMW will install Dinan parts under warranty so I'm not sure if Renntech is the same with Mercedes. Then maybe their price is worth it, otherwise, the other tunes are much less expensive and do the same if not more.

Faris63

Yes some dealers offer Renntech tunes for their customers in the US only

I would go with Weistec they have the best customer service I've ever seen

Homie C63

Thanks guys! I will make a decision soon Personally, I've never heard of any tuners besides Renntech before visiting this forum. Glad to know there are a lot of options available!

Case1906

And our forum sponsor:

http://www.kleemann.dk/Performance/Engines/AMG63

roadtalontsi

the problem with renntech/kleemann/brabus is they all have the benz tax. Where as the others actually have somewhat competitive pricing. Most people choose one of the above because they are somehow convinced that since some dealers sell them they dont void the warranty which is not the case. They also stay very conservative on tuning which i wouldnt say is bad but if safety isnt being compromised why hold back. In the 156 de-tuned from the factory comment- simple marketing - you cant have the cheapest amg be the faster and add more value to the pp. thats why the slk55 never saw the 156, blown 55 113k, or biturbo motor.

edwardsflight33

Anybody ever get anything done through Carlsson? I know you have to ship your ECU to Germany, but I'm already here so it wouldn't be too bad for me. Curious if anyone has any experience with them.

papashango

So I was contemplating getting a tune for my P31 car but after reading your posts I have started to think that perhaps it isn't the best idea. I don't have any other mods (internal) so sounds like I have nothing to gain from a tune and more to lose in terms of a potential longevity of the engine etc.

So to get some more power from the p31 car, what sort of mods other than supercharging etc, do you recommend one should get so the tune provides the most bang for the buck? I am talking about bolt on mods etc. Just trying to figure out what parts I should be looking at getting installed and then get a tune so that I actually see some noticeable power gains in the car.

Thanks for the input!

Diabolis

Any bolt-on mod that removes some kind of restriction (like a free-flowing exhaust for example) will allow you extract more power from the engine. A tune on its own on an otherwise stock P31 engine isn't going to do much, but if you remove the cats and put headers on, then a tune will indeed help to get the most out of the "new" motor. An engine is essentially a dynamic system and the ECU is a closed-loop controller, so the idea behind a tune is to tell the controller that the system itself has changed - not just the variables - and in this case allow you to extract more power from the car than you would do by simply adding the free-flowing exhaust on its own.

Obviously, the mod has to actually do something. There are a lot of people changing air filters and airboxes for example, but IMHO these will do nothing for the performance unless the OEM filer or airbox are somehow restricting the volume of air that a particular motor needs at WOT and maximum RPM (taking into account the atmospheric pressure and temperature since these affect the air density if you really want to get into the details) for complete combustion of the available fuel. For example, if a particular engine requires 40L of air per minute at the most, and you replace a filter that can already flow 60L/min with a 80L/min, you have solved a problem that does not exist. A lot of the mods marketed to car enthusiasts are placebos or "cosmetic" (2% gain and 98% wishful thinking and bragging rights), but they obviously work from a marketing perspective and so they sell well. I am NOT saying that this is the case with the airboxes on the C63 M156 engine but just using it as an example. This is also the reason why I am not a fan of pre-canned, "one-size-fits-all" tunes that are being sold on the mod market - they may help somewhat, but again this is not optimal as every modification that you add affects the motor in a different way so the only way to get the maximum available benefit from the modification is to make a custom tune for your specific engine. Unfortunately a custom tune makes the cost prohibitively expensive for commercial purposes on a large scale as the tuner would need the car there during the process and there would be a significant time investment both by the tuner and you. The pre-canned tunes all make certain assumptions about state of the engine and the mods on the car, which is why you end up with "gremlins" on the vehicles that differ form the assumption the tuner has made. Again, I am not talking about an artificially restricted motor like the non-P31 M156 where you can get the extra power simply by allowing the engine to use all the air and fuel that it can.

Homie C63

Diabolis, you are absolutely amazing! Thanks so much.

What have you done to your car in terms of modding? I dont think im going to get a tune on my p31 yet. I really wanted to do headers and an X pipe through the 2ndary cat. Do you recommend replacing my entire piping ? And.. if i do headers, is there anything I HAVE to replace to avoid problems?

quadexhaust

Curious if anyone with a non-p31 tuned C63 has run into problems - detonation or other? I just did the Eurocharged tune, and it is great. I do question how safe it is though, as I do want to keep the car for quite a while... it definitely appears to shift faster, just wondering what it may be doing to the transmission over the long term... if a tune just brings it into "alignment" or "sameness" as with the stock E63 tune, does anyone have results indicating the A/F and other ratios are equivalent?

Anyone with a tune running into problems attributed to "the tune?"

Diabolis

Thanks - I am sure there are a lot of people that would disagree but thank you nonetheless. I'm just a die-hard petrolhead and car fanatic with a need for speed. The engineer in me likes to know how things work and why they do what they do and the wannabe racer wants to go fast, so I have spent a fair bit of my discretionary time pursuing those passions.

I have not done anything to my C63 yet simply because I have only had it for a relatively short time, and I haven't had a chance to push it to its limits. I have a few sets of wheels and I have made a couple of cosmetic mods but that's not what we're talking about here. Everything I have learned is from my previous cars and from hanging out at the track and at my mechanics' shop late into the night on many occasions working on someone's ride just for the fun of it. I grew up in a country where car parts weren't readily available and you had to fix things instead of simply replacing them, so I started getting my hands dirty at a relatively early age "helping" my dad. These days it keeps me happy and the wife relatively content - at least she knows who my mistresses are and what their oily bits smell like. I have only taken the C to the track once (it was even greasy to boot so I couldn't really push it hard) but it seems like a very capable vehicle out of the box. Other than that I have no experience with the C63, either with wrenching or with tuning it so I am afraid I can't offer any actual input on what may and may not work on the car. I have had three proper track rats though and on these I have probably done every single mod you can think of and then some so that's where I am drawing all my conclusions from.

A set of headers, exhaust and a tune would probably be the best bang for the buck in terms of gains vs. investment, but you will definitely need a tune to get the most out of them and to eliminate a CEL warning if you remove the cats. Not sure whether this would be road legal where you live, but if you can get away with it, it is probably the only proven bolt-on mod that can deliver a significant hp increase without tinkering with the engine internals.

There are a few people on the board here that track their C63s regularly and some that have gone to lengths to set them up (Dads C63 comes to mind) but I am not one of them yet. As a platform on which to build a proper track car the C63 is probably not the best choice to start with so there is relatively little actual data compared to what you can find for Porsches on Rennlist for example, but it is certainly a very capable beast that can hold its own against more "track ready" cars and then get you back home in style and comfort that you won't get from the others. IMHO that's what makes the C63 unique - better comfort and luxury than anything the competition has to offer, but it turns into a completely unhinged beast when you want it to go.