Q&A with Shop Foreman - C63 507 Edition
10-18-2013, 10:43 PM
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MY19AMG GT-C; MY14C63-507 - former Audi B6 S4
Q&A with Shop Foreman - C63 507 Edition
Here is the Q&A session with the head foreman at the shop.
Break in.
The head foreman has been in the automotive business for 50 years with 30 of those years at MB. Started off doing mechanic work with racing (dirt track, SCCA GTP series, continues to do work with Mustang series racing). His direct quote, "you will talk to 100 different people and get 100 different opinions on break in." From his perspective, one ought to break in the car as you will be driving the car in the future. With the new processes now with manufacturing, the sealing ought to be good to go from the factory. As has been stated here, the oil consumption issues seen on cars usually is down to the sealings. The most important thing with our cars is to ensure the oil is up to temperature! Don't go out and beat on the car when the text is blue. Other than that, have fun with the car. Break it in as you will drive it.
Oil
He showed me an official document from MB dated 10/08/13. It looked very similar to the one someone posted here in another thread from the startekinfo site: http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/doclist.jsp. This document is what the foremen receive from MB. Bottom line: the document stated the M156 engine uses MB229.5 0W40 and 5W40. The interesting thing is the document stated Mobil 1 only! I found that a bit interesting....especially since the bevo site gives many different options. He showed me that documentation as well and said one can use your brand of choice as long as it is on the sheet. The other item he mentioned is MB now has their own brand of oil. This is due to the fact that M1 is not always available around the globe. The packaging looks surprisingly like Mobil 1. So, it looks like Mercedes and M1 have some kind of agreement.
For the factory fill, he personally does not know what AMG puts in the cars from the factory. In fact, he just got back from a training session at AMG last month and everything was still very secretive. Not much is shared except what one is there to do. He suspects it's either the M1 0W40 or the MB oil. This is mostly due to the 10/08/13 fluid sheet he showed me.
For oil change intervals, the standard policy is to do the 10K OCI. This is mostly for marketing and sales purposes. MB wants to be able to compete with other manufactures in regards to maintenance. With that said, he had no problem with me doing a 5K OCI. The fact that I will be driving the car a bit hard, it is a good idea to do the 5K OCIs. In fact, he found it nice that he was actually having a conversation with someone about the matter! "Not many people ask about these things. In my opinion, anyone buying a car like this needs to have this level of detail!"
As long as I hit the 10K OCIs, everything will be good to go.
Oil Temp
Yesterday, while not driving hard at all, the oil temp got up to 242F. This happened while in a tunnel here in NYC after being in stop and go traffic. After I got out of the tunnel, the oil recovered back to 212 F. I emailed my Sales guy the question who in turn sent it to the foreman. His reply was there is nothing in various MB sources that speak to oil cooling and the "acceptable" range. If the oil gets too hot, one will get a warning on the display about the temperature. However, "sometimes, specs are not necessarily in print" and would forward my information on if I wanted. In his experience, the oil temp is usually 10-15 degrees above the coolant temperature in normal, non-aggressive driving. With my 242 F, he was not concerned about the temperature as synthetics can handle temperatures into the 300s. At this point, I am thinking it was the traffic that got the oil temp high. I'll monitor the situation and escalate if it get's crazy. It will be interesting to see what the temperature does in the summer time!
Tire Wear
He has personally not seen much tire wear on the C63. This dealer does not have many C63 AMG customers (mostly the AMG customers are E, CLS and S customers). He did hear about a situation where there was excessive wear on the inside shoulder of the tires. However, that was due to incorrect Caster and Camber settings. He described the process of alignment that MB has for the cars. Essentially, a "leader" is placed on the suspension components and this piece must line up exactly into a machine to the proper caster/camber/toe specifications for the vehicle. There is very little room for going off the suggested settings: < 3 degrees. He said if we wanted to play around, with the settings we did not have much wiggle room. I mentioned let's see what happens. I just heard from this board there were some issues and wanted to get his insight. (And yes, he comes to this board and knows about our debates! 
).
It was a great conversation and he was excited to talk to me about everything! As he said, not many AMG owners get into the level of detail I had from the questions. He kept himself open to me for additional questions as we move through the lifecycle of the C. Good stuff.
That's all for now. Can't wait to get back to break the car in!
Take care everyone.
-C
Break in.
The head foreman has been in the automotive business for 50 years with 30 of those years at MB. Started off doing mechanic work with racing (dirt track, SCCA GTP series, continues to do work with Mustang series racing). His direct quote, "you will talk to 100 different people and get 100 different opinions on break in." From his perspective, one ought to break in the car as you will be driving the car in the future. With the new processes now with manufacturing, the sealing ought to be good to go from the factory. As has been stated here, the oil consumption issues seen on cars usually is down to the sealings. The most important thing with our cars is to ensure the oil is up to temperature! Don't go out and beat on the car when the text is blue. Other than that, have fun with the car. Break it in as you will drive it.
Oil
He showed me an official document from MB dated 10/08/13. It looked very similar to the one someone posted here in another thread from the startekinfo site: http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/doclist.jsp. This document is what the foremen receive from MB. Bottom line: the document stated the M156 engine uses MB229.5 0W40 and 5W40. The interesting thing is the document stated Mobil 1 only! I found that a bit interesting....especially since the bevo site gives many different options. He showed me that documentation as well and said one can use your brand of choice as long as it is on the sheet. The other item he mentioned is MB now has their own brand of oil. This is due to the fact that M1 is not always available around the globe. The packaging looks surprisingly like Mobil 1. So, it looks like Mercedes and M1 have some kind of agreement.
For the factory fill, he personally does not know what AMG puts in the cars from the factory. In fact, he just got back from a training session at AMG last month and everything was still very secretive. Not much is shared except what one is there to do. He suspects it's either the M1 0W40 or the MB oil. This is mostly due to the 10/08/13 fluid sheet he showed me.
For oil change intervals, the standard policy is to do the 10K OCI. This is mostly for marketing and sales purposes. MB wants to be able to compete with other manufactures in regards to maintenance. With that said, he had no problem with me doing a 5K OCI. The fact that I will be driving the car a bit hard, it is a good idea to do the 5K OCIs. In fact, he found it nice that he was actually having a conversation with someone about the matter! "Not many people ask about these things. In my opinion, anyone buying a car like this needs to have this level of detail!"
As long as I hit the 10K OCIs, everything will be good to go.Oil Temp
Yesterday, while not driving hard at all, the oil temp got up to 242F. This happened while in a tunnel here in NYC after being in stop and go traffic. After I got out of the tunnel, the oil recovered back to 212 F. I emailed my Sales guy the question who in turn sent it to the foreman. His reply was there is nothing in various MB sources that speak to oil cooling and the "acceptable" range. If the oil gets too hot, one will get a warning on the display about the temperature. However, "sometimes, specs are not necessarily in print" and would forward my information on if I wanted. In his experience, the oil temp is usually 10-15 degrees above the coolant temperature in normal, non-aggressive driving. With my 242 F, he was not concerned about the temperature as synthetics can handle temperatures into the 300s. At this point, I am thinking it was the traffic that got the oil temp high. I'll monitor the situation and escalate if it get's crazy. It will be interesting to see what the temperature does in the summer time!
Tire Wear
He has personally not seen much tire wear on the C63. This dealer does not have many C63 AMG customers (mostly the AMG customers are E, CLS and S customers). He did hear about a situation where there was excessive wear on the inside shoulder of the tires. However, that was due to incorrect Caster and Camber settings. He described the process of alignment that MB has for the cars. Essentially, a "leader" is placed on the suspension components and this piece must line up exactly into a machine to the proper caster/camber/toe specifications for the vehicle. There is very little room for going off the suggested settings: < 3 degrees. He said if we wanted to play around, with the settings we did not have much wiggle room. I mentioned let's see what happens. I just heard from this board there were some issues and wanted to get his insight. (And yes, he comes to this board and knows about our debates!
).It was a great conversation and he was excited to talk to me about everything! As he said, not many AMG owners get into the level of detail I had from the questions. He kept himself open to me for additional questions as we move through the lifecycle of the C. Good stuff.
That's all for now. Can't wait to get back to break the car in!
Take care everyone.
-C
10-19-2013, 01:41 AM
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As far as oil temps, most of us see 240-250 whenever we drive our cars slightly hard, its kind of a known problem with our cars about the oil heating up. Car will go into limp mode between 270-280 which is a complete bummer on the track.
10-19-2013, 11:52 AM
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07 E63 + 07 CLK63CAB
There seems to be so much worry about oil temps, just what did drivers do when they did not have a oil temp readout. Did many or any actually worry what the oil was doing as long as the engine oil light did not come on, meaning no oil pressure. If you happen to have these high temps when driving on the street or highway then obviously you are driving different from all the other cars on the road with you. Most cars do not even have an oil cooler for the engine and manage to rack up 100's of thousands' of miles with minimal issue on just 4 quarts relying on the engine coolant to keep things in check. But then again I am not one to run 10,000miles on an oil change, oil consumption on both cars is minimal, with no top ups required. E63 507 rated HP
10-19-2013, 12:20 PM
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507 SEDAN
^^^^agreed!! I felt the same way. He obviously doesn't know too much about the C63. That is one of the easiest problems to admit too. Seems he doesn't spend too much time working on the C63 and thus, maybe isn't that informed.
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10-19-2013, 04:29 PM
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MY19AMG GT-C; MY14C63-507 - former Audi B6 S4
There are not many C63 customers at this dealership. In fact, I am #2 with the 507 edition for this year. As he said to me, they have not seen much C63 tire wear there as they don't have many C63 customers (didn't ask if it was just the 2 507 customers only including me...but thinking about the clientele of this dealership, I would not be surprised). The good news is he is open to me working on the issue. Who knows, maybe something good will come out of it. I suppose I will find out soon about this issue....tirerack has been on my speed dial since 2004.
I'll be contributing to that one soon! Glad that there was some value in the post for everyone.
Happy
-C
10-19-2013, 10:21 PM
#9
MBWorld Fanatic!
haha. I think the biggest tire issue is with the owners having come from a normal econo car and never owning a real performance vehicle with summer tires. yep they all wear on the inside and the rears go fast if you drive spiritedly. Ya faster than your previous torque-less bmw. by the time the inside is bald the rest of the tire is at the wear bars or further along and needs replaced anyways. if thats not case then the rear toe needs adjusted in further. Also putting strange wheel offsets, different widths, and #1 cheap crappy off brand tires not rated for the vehicle weight and performance will not help the situtation.
to also add.... so much talk about temps here and there. Ya some go into limp mode when tracked but who has actually had a catastrophic failure? benz is one of the few to have numurous oil coolers on cars for a over a decade.
to also add.... so much talk about temps here and there. Ya some go into limp mode when tracked but who has actually had a catastrophic failure? benz is one of the few to have numurous oil coolers on cars for a over a decade.
10-19-2013, 10:27 PM
#10
I have thrashed mine up steep grades at sustained 4k to 6k rpm and never saw 240 F, as soon as I let off it went to 210-220
240-250 F oil temp is NOT a 'problem', it's normal, that is sump temp AFTER cooling/lubricating the engine...it will be pumped thru the cooler before returning to the engine and will be 20-40 F cooler
modern synthetics will handle >275 F on a regular basis
I thought limp mode was based on the tranny fluid temp not the engine oil?
Mobil website
Mobil 1 Hot Temperature Properties
So what value is this at high temperatures? At high temperatures the oil molecule in synthetic oils are far more stable and degenerate less. This means not only do synthetic oils maintain lubrication integrity, they continue to cool and clean engine components at constant temperatures of up to 180°C, and can handle short term temperatures in excess of 200°C.
180 C is >350 F
Last edited by Ingenieur; 10-19-2013 at 10:32 PM.
10-20-2013, 10:40 AM
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C63 AMG Coupe
Here is the Q&A session with the head foreman at the shop.
Break in.
The head foreman has been in the automotive business for 50 years with 30 of those years at MB. Started off doing mechanic work with racing (dirt track, SCCA GTP series, continues to do work with Mustang series racing). His direct quote, "you will talk to 100 different people and get 100 different opinions on break in." From his perspective, one ought to break in the car as you will be driving the car in the future. With the new processes now with manufacturing, the sealing ought to be good to go from the factory. As has been stated here, the oil consumption issues seen on cars usually is down to the sealings. The most important thing with our cars is to ensure the oil is up to temperature! Don't go out and beat on the car when the text is blue. Other than that, have fun with the car. Break it in as you will drive it.
Oil
He showed me an official document from MB dated 10/08/13. It looked very similar to the one someone posted here in another thread from the startekinfo site: http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/doclist.jsp. This document is what the foremen receive from MB. Bottom line: the document stated the M156 engine uses MB229.5 0W40 and 5W40. The interesting thing is the document stated Mobil 1 only! I found that a bit interesting....especially since the bevo site gives many different options. He showed me that documentation as well and said one can use your brand of choice as long as it is on the sheet. The other item he mentioned is MB now has their own brand of oil. This is due to the fact that M1 is not always available around the globe. The packaging looks surprisingly like Mobil 1. So, it looks like Mercedes and M1 have some kind of agreement.
For the factory fill, he personally does not know what AMG puts in the cars from the factory. In fact, he just got back from a training session at AMG last month and everything was still very secretive. Not much is shared except what one is there to do. He suspects it's either the M1 0W40 or the MB oil. This is mostly due to the 10/08/13 fluid sheet he showed me.
For oil change intervals, the standard policy is to do the 10K OCI. This is mostly for marketing and sales purposes. MB wants to be able to compete with other manufactures in regards to maintenance. With that said, he had no problem with me doing a 5K OCI. The fact that I will be driving the car a bit hard, it is a good idea to do the 5K OCIs. In fact, he found it nice that he was actually having a conversation with someone about the matter! "Not many people ask about these things. In my opinion, anyone buying a car like this needs to have this level of detail!" As long as I hit the 10K OCIs, everything will be good to go.
Oil Temp
Yesterday, while not driving hard at all, the oil temp got up to 242F. This happened while in a tunnel here in NYC after being in stop and go traffic. After I got out of the tunnel, the oil recovered back to 212 F. I emailed my Sales guy the question who in turn sent it to the foreman. His reply was there is nothing in various MB sources that speak to oil cooling and the "acceptable" range. If the oil gets too hot, one will get a warning on the display about the temperature. However, "sometimes, specs are not necessarily in print" and would forward my information on if I wanted. In his experience, the oil temp is usually 10-15 degrees above the coolant temperature in normal, non-aggressive driving. With my 242 F, he was not concerned about the temperature as synthetics can handle temperatures into the 300s. At this point, I am thinking it was the traffic that got the oil temp high. I'll monitor the situation and escalate if it get's crazy. It will be interesting to see what the temperature does in the summer time!
Tire Wear
He has personally not seen much tire wear on the C63. This dealer does not have many C63 AMG customers (mostly the AMG customers are E, CLS and S customers). He did hear about a situation where there was excessive wear on the inside shoulder of the tires. However, that was due to incorrect Caster and Camber settings. He described the process of alignment that MB has for the cars. Essentially, a "leader" is placed on the suspension components and this piece must line up exactly into a machine to the proper caster/camber/toe specifications for the vehicle. There is very little room for going off the suggested settings: < 3 degrees. He said if we wanted to play around, with the settings we did not have much wiggle room. I mentioned let's see what happens. I just heard from this board there were some issues and wanted to get his insight. (And yes, he comes to this board and knows about our debates! ).
It was a great conversation and he was excited to talk to me about everything! As he said, not many AMG owners get into the level of detail I had from the questions. He kept himself open to me for additional questions as we move through the lifecycle of the C. Good stuff.
That's all for now. Can't wait to get back to break the car in!
Take care everyone.
-C
Break in.
The head foreman has been in the automotive business for 50 years with 30 of those years at MB. Started off doing mechanic work with racing (dirt track, SCCA GTP series, continues to do work with Mustang series racing). His direct quote, "you will talk to 100 different people and get 100 different opinions on break in." From his perspective, one ought to break in the car as you will be driving the car in the future. With the new processes now with manufacturing, the sealing ought to be good to go from the factory. As has been stated here, the oil consumption issues seen on cars usually is down to the sealings. The most important thing with our cars is to ensure the oil is up to temperature! Don't go out and beat on the car when the text is blue. Other than that, have fun with the car. Break it in as you will drive it.
Oil
He showed me an official document from MB dated 10/08/13. It looked very similar to the one someone posted here in another thread from the startekinfo site: http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/doclist.jsp. This document is what the foremen receive from MB. Bottom line: the document stated the M156 engine uses MB229.5 0W40 and 5W40. The interesting thing is the document stated Mobil 1 only! I found that a bit interesting....especially since the bevo site gives many different options. He showed me that documentation as well and said one can use your brand of choice as long as it is on the sheet. The other item he mentioned is MB now has their own brand of oil. This is due to the fact that M1 is not always available around the globe. The packaging looks surprisingly like Mobil 1. So, it looks like Mercedes and M1 have some kind of agreement.
For the factory fill, he personally does not know what AMG puts in the cars from the factory. In fact, he just got back from a training session at AMG last month and everything was still very secretive. Not much is shared except what one is there to do. He suspects it's either the M1 0W40 or the MB oil. This is mostly due to the 10/08/13 fluid sheet he showed me.
For oil change intervals, the standard policy is to do the 10K OCI. This is mostly for marketing and sales purposes. MB wants to be able to compete with other manufactures in regards to maintenance. With that said, he had no problem with me doing a 5K OCI. The fact that I will be driving the car a bit hard, it is a good idea to do the 5K OCIs. In fact, he found it nice that he was actually having a conversation with someone about the matter! "Not many people ask about these things. In my opinion, anyone buying a car like this needs to have this level of detail!"
As long as I hit the 10K OCIs, everything will be good to go.Oil Temp
Yesterday, while not driving hard at all, the oil temp got up to 242F. This happened while in a tunnel here in NYC after being in stop and go traffic. After I got out of the tunnel, the oil recovered back to 212 F. I emailed my Sales guy the question who in turn sent it to the foreman. His reply was there is nothing in various MB sources that speak to oil cooling and the "acceptable" range. If the oil gets too hot, one will get a warning on the display about the temperature. However, "sometimes, specs are not necessarily in print" and would forward my information on if I wanted. In his experience, the oil temp is usually 10-15 degrees above the coolant temperature in normal, non-aggressive driving. With my 242 F, he was not concerned about the temperature as synthetics can handle temperatures into the 300s. At this point, I am thinking it was the traffic that got the oil temp high. I'll monitor the situation and escalate if it get's crazy. It will be interesting to see what the temperature does in the summer time!
Tire Wear
He has personally not seen much tire wear on the C63. This dealer does not have many C63 AMG customers (mostly the AMG customers are E, CLS and S customers). He did hear about a situation where there was excessive wear on the inside shoulder of the tires. However, that was due to incorrect Caster and Camber settings. He described the process of alignment that MB has for the cars. Essentially, a "leader" is placed on the suspension components and this piece must line up exactly into a machine to the proper caster/camber/toe specifications for the vehicle. There is very little room for going off the suggested settings: < 3 degrees. He said if we wanted to play around, with the settings we did not have much wiggle room. I mentioned let's see what happens. I just heard from this board there were some issues and wanted to get his insight. (And yes, he comes to this board and knows about our debates!
).It was a great conversation and he was excited to talk to me about everything! As he said, not many AMG owners get into the level of detail I had from the questions. He kept himself open to me for additional questions as we move through the lifecycle of the C. Good stuff.
That's all for now. Can't wait to get back to break the car in!
Take care everyone.
-C
Great stuff and great writeup. Thanks
10-20-2013, 09:38 PM
#12
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haha. I think the biggest tire issue is with the owners having come from a normal econo car and never owning a real performance vehicle with summer tires. yep they all wear on the inside and the rears go fast if you drive spiritedly. Ya faster than your previous torque-less bmw. by the time the inside is bald the rest of the tire is at the wear bars or further along and needs replaced anyways. if thats not case then the rear toe needs adjusted in further. Also putting strange wheel offsets, different widths, and #1 cheap crappy off brand tires not rated for the vehicle weight and performance will not help the situtation.
to also add.... so much talk about temps here and there. Ya some go into limp mode when tracked but who has actually had a catastrophic failure? benz is one of the few to have numurous oil coolers on cars for a over a decade.
to also add.... so much talk about temps here and there. Ya some go into limp mode when tracked but who has actually had a catastrophic failure? benz is one of the few to have numurous oil coolers on cars for a over a decade.
"...yep they all wear on the inside and the rears go fast if you drive spiritedly..."
K-MAC manufacture front Camber and Caster and rear Camber and Toe adjuster kits to properly compensate for premature edge tire wear and improve traction. Currently front and rear Toe only adjustment is available OEM on virtually all Mercedes models.
