goatfarmer1970 and 2012c63amg, respect to both of you guys for the discussion.

I love a C63 either way, with or without LSD. I'm a bit of a loose cannon behind the wheel so i love to really challenge myself without an LSD. The science behind the LSD is outstanding especially when you want to track the car (i'd prefer to track a car with LSD than without) But i love a C63 without LSD because i feel as though i have to be alert 24/7 especially with spirited driving when you're behind the seat of a 671rwhp machine!

I stand by my opinion that the C63 was made to brutally eat the road like a possessed axe murderer rather than hit the corners with precision like an F16 hornet, that's where the M3 comes in. I always tend to look back at Top Gear's review of the RS4, C63 and M3 (one of my fav videos). You see the M3 hitting corners with precision, then the C63 bobs out chewing every bit of the track in the M3's rear view mirror.

I think we will all agree on one thing whether we have an LSD or not... The C63 is one brutal animal compared to any other car. It's that brutal that when they built it, AMG didn't even ram an LSD in it lol.

 

The face-lifted C63 is *almost* as capable around a track as a E9x M3 (it's only the heavy glass roof that makes it a little less nimble around the corners than an M3). The Top Gear review and comparison that you keep referring to is certainly entertaining but really not very objective, at least not in the handling department. You can drive a Prius like a hooligan if that's what you're after. Just because Jeremy Clarkson likes to vaporize the tires in the shortest possible amount of time, it doesn't mean that it's the only way to drive the car nor that the car was meant to be driven that way. It certainly isn't the fastest.

Having said that, if you're looking to go faster, in terms of options or upgrades an LSD is probably the biggest bang for your buck. An LSD allows you to put the power down better, in any vehicle than that same vehicle with an open differential. I really don't get your argument about "being more alert" if you don't have one. You have to be alert all the time, in any car. If you drive like a hooligan and the TC is interfering all the time, you're just a bad driver, just like you would be if every time you wanted to slow down you slammed on the brakes so hard that the ABS has to engage.

P.S. As for MB not putting in an LSD in by default, it's because there are many more poseurs that buy the C63 for the badge and the status (and never drive the car beyond 50% of what it is actually capable of) instead of those that buy it for the actual performance it can deliver, so MB makes it cheaper than an M3 in order to attract more buyers. Just look at the relative numbers of C63 owners that track their vehicles and compare that to the number of M3 owners that do. It's not because the car doesn't need it, it's because the majority of owners don't. It's the same thing with Porsche. The only way to make the brand more affordable for the masses is by leaving out bits like an LSD that the majority of owners don't care about.

 

This.

 

Looks good, got closeups?

 

Read what i said properly - Being MORE alert. I never said i wasn't alert.

*rolls eyes* if only this guy knew..

Have a nice day *waves*

 

Great post. A high torque motor really highlights the deficiency of an open differential. I can't think of any good argument against matching the M156 with a LSD. The reason manufacturers leave out LSD is cost only.

 

It's a pretty smart differntial for an open differential. Most open differentials will only spin one wheel. Yet the C63 still manages to spin both endlessly.

The funny thing is, I have an LSD in my C63. But i still love the feeling of getting into a car that runs 600-700hp at the wheels, modified and tuned off it's head, especially if it's got a blower on it and managing to put pussies on show that don't know how to drive. Especially the ones who sit there and whinge about how an LSD is better yet they drive like a 90 year old woman. These are the same people who would buy a 458 italia because the software and ESC will make anyone look like a good driver lol.

I laugh when i see a 50+ year old man who owns a C63 and sits there talking about LSD this LSD that, specifics of the car and so on. Mate, grow some *****, learn how to drive and you will never complain about a double legger non-lsd again.

LOL What's the bet most of the people complaining about LSD vs Non-LSD probably have stock cars. Yet people running 600rwhp+ don't even complain.

Moral of the story, learn to drive.

Meh rant over.

 

Regarding your "smart" differential - what MB does on the C63 if you don't have an LSD is use the ABS sensor to detect wheel spin and then apply the brake to the spinning wheel so that the wheel does not rotate faster than it should. While this might keep the rear end of the car pointing in the right direction, it effectively wastes energy (and wears your rear brakes), which with a proper LSD is instead transferred to the road and allows you to accelerate faster.


As for the rest, I am not in the mood for a fight, but instead of blabbing about what you saw on Top Gear and trying to justify the fact that you don't have / want / need a diff or you don't see a point in having one, it doesn't mean that it's not very useful to those of us that do want to actually go fast instead of bragging about how much hp our cars produce. Listen to your own advice, grow a pair yourself and accept the fact that you are neither the smartest person nor the best driver on the planet.

 

The C63's open diff will spin its inside wheel if you get on the throttle hard on corner exit. This was a little frustrating during a track outing at Buttonwillow.

If you only want to get your driving thrills in a straight line and never want to experience holding opposite lock, save your money and skip the LSD.

 

Do you realise how much of a ****** you sound like?

 

People with 600+ RWHP cars either ordered the car with an LSD or had it installed already. They know it's value and how much it helps so you don't see them talking about it. They just order it.

 

lol

 

That's why I got the CLS with LSD. I dunno if it's worth to upgrade to Wavetrac

I sent you a PM a few days ago

 

I'm working out something for you on the wheels, I'll get back to you today!

 

AFAIK all the OEM LSDs that MB uses on their sedans are of the clutch-type variety which are (performance-wise) usually superior to gear-based diffs. I don't think you'll see an improvement over what you already have with an aftermarket diff, and furthermore the installation is probably going to be a tad more complex as you're not only replacing the internals but likely the entire pumpkin. If you want a bit more lock-up (either on acceleration or deceleration), it would be cheaper and easier to just change and/or repack the plates and change the ramp angles to your liking in the OEM LSD.

 

I'm going a little off-topic here. I always thought the clutch-based LSD units were superior from a performance perspective. I was a bit surprised to see that Ford offered an upgrade option on the Boss 302 for a helical Torsen diff. Then Chevy followed by fitting the new Z/28 also with a Torsen. What's especially confusing is that the less performance oriented models of these two cars come equipped with clutch-based LSD.

 

Those guys do more drag racing type stuff, the gear based differentials are going to last longer in heavy duty situations like that. That's the only reason I can think of for something like that as I've always thought the clutch based ones were better if you wanted to pay 3x as much!

The clutch based ones would still be better to use though since you would only be wearing out clutches instead of breaking gears so maybe I'm preaching a mute point.

 

Hmm, both the Boss 302 and Camaro Z/28 are the track cars of their product families. The GT500 and the ZL1 are better for drag racing.

 

You are correct - the upgraded LSD on the Boss 302 is a Torsen-T2 unit, but it is really an upgrade in terms of longevity and maintenance rather than maximum on-track performance or the ability to tweak the diff. I know nothing about the Z28.

For street driving and/or drag racing purposes a gear diff would be more cost effective and just as good, but it can not be set up (customized) like a clutch based LSD. For track racing purposes even the Torsen guys make a diff (T2-R) which employs a clutch in addition to the gears for the preload.


P.S. *Completely* off-topic - is it just me or is MBWorld double-spacing everything now? Or maybe it's IE11 - anyone else using it yet?

 

I don't know if I got this whole "take out the OE LSD and replace it with a Wavetrac" thing started or not but I agree with Diabolis in most all of what he says about the clutch-type LSD. But I have also stated that my choice of the Wavetrac was done with a larger project in mind, and that project includes a fully built Weistec transmission (my spare trans) which is now done and awaiting my TCU and car for installation. So, that's all I'll say about it for now but after I put a few k miles on the car I'll report back on how it all worked out. I'll probably drop the car off at Weistec in the first week of Dec.

 

And no, I probably wouldn't have changed out the OE LSD otherwise, but absent the OE item definitely a Wavetrac. Also my perfect OE LSD is now officially offered at $500.

 

For the street or track I preferr a gear type diff over a clutch type any day. Once the clutches wear you essentially have an open diff. The gear type LSD's are typically durable enough to install and never touch again.

However, the biggest drawback to clutch type differentials is that they increase initial turn in understeer and power out oversteer where a good gear type LSD does not. This may not be a problem for people who don't track their car at the limits (or drive on ice) but I do both.

I have in the past and would again swap a clutch type diff out for a gear type as it is superior in almost every way (aparently Ford & GM think so too since the Torson is an UPGRADE). Now for off road or drag racing only that is a different story as neither clutch or gear LSD's are ideal for those applications.

 

Left a one wheel peel out yesterday, was really pathetic.

 

I agree with the part that once the clutches wear out you would essentially end up with an open diff and that gear-based units do not wear like clutch-based LSDs and are thus much more friendly from a maintenance perspective.

As for the rest, I cannot agree with your statement, either as a wannabe racer with a fair bit of track and mud/gravel experience at the limit and (unfortunately) beyond, or as an engineer. If perhaps you clarified your statement that you're talking about a FWD (or AWD) car and the LSD is on the front as opposed to the rear axle, then yes, an LSD will indeed cause the car to plow on deceleration no matter what, but on a RWD car it isn't going to happen. Even in the extreme case of a live rear axle (100% lock all the time), you're still not going to induce understeer as a result of the lock on the rear either on accel or decel.

If you find that your LSD is doing unpredictable or undesirable things to your car's dynamics, chances are it was not set up correctly for your application, not that it is of the wrong type. As for the upgrade on the Boss 302, as I said earlier it is likely an upgrade over the Ford base unit from a longevity and maintenance perspective, not performance.

 

Lets get you into a Wavetrac unit then