jclaus98

There's the opposing view point I was looking for! I think what I'm going to try is doing the head bolts, then filling up the cooling system, pressurizing the system and see what happens. I'll be sure to post my findings and let everyone know what I find. Thanks for the vote of confidence Merc63.

Jasonoff

If you trap fluid, it moves around and or evaporates relieving the force on the bolt head. It could come loose...

Someone asked worst case scenario and that's it. Odds of it happening?

Merc63

How are you going to trap fluid with the head torquing pattern?

Jasonoff

There's already fluid trapped.
He's going to do them one at a time.
The gasket is 3 layers with ridges and valleys...

BLKROKT

It's so funny the lengths people are willing to go through to confirm a pet theory. On a $40k engine no less. Listen, if you poll people here 9/10 people will say you're doing it the wrong way, and chances are pretty good that the HG is compromised already, and therefore chances are pretty good that at a minimum you will have to tear it apart again, and you have a pretty high chance of damaging your engine. But sure, just ignore all that. You're not trying to do this the right way, you've already made your mind up and were just waiting for the one person here to back your course of action (and he didn't have a leaking HG when he did his). So whatever dude, just do what you want and don't make a mockery of the situation or waste everyone's time here hemming and hawing and wringing your hands about what you're going to do. You're going to do what you want to do, regardless of all the counter advice given, and all the evidence you can find by simply Goggling this. I don't wish ill on you or your car, but good luck - you'll need it.

I find it hilarious that this little discussion has happened in a thread made by a guy who CLEARLY knows what he is doing, didn't take any shortcuts, and preemptively replaced his headbolts before they failed, AND lifted the heads and did the HG too at the same time out of an abundance of caution. Good thinking there, and pretty much the exact opposite of what you're contemplating.

Well said. Do it right the first time.

jclaus98

@ BLKROKT - I really did not intend to anger anyone here and I honestly am not trying to go against what someone with the experience and knowledge that I don't have, says. However, I clearly stated that I was not trying to be disrespectful and very clearly asked you not to take offense and asked for some evidence of what experience you had with these gaskets that have lead you to believe that the only option at any point is to replace the gasket. All you could do was personally attack my response to someone who provided some experience they've had with some steel gaskets. If someone at some point hadn't questioned the universally held truth the earth was flat, we'd all be all be walking around believing that today. I realize that's a crude analogy, but what I'm asking here is if anyone has tried what I'm proposing and no one has been able to say they have. I'll say it again, if we were dealing with a composite or graphite gasket here, I would t even be asking this question; I have the experience with those gaskets that tells me that the sealing capability of that material once it's been compressed is gone. But, I have no experience with steel gaskets and I'm here looking for people who do. Plain and simple. If 9 out of 10 people respond and said, I have worked with steel gaskets for years and tried more than once to re-use/re-torque them in the sort of situation your describing and you're wasting your time trying to re-torque that head with the old gasket in there, then I am content to trust their knowledge and experience and follow the advice I'm given. But, without knowing what level of experience the ten people who've responded here have, I can only assume that someone has told them the only option is to replace the gasket, and the someone they heard that from told them same thing and no one has even tried what I'm proposing. Merc63 offered some experience and I was happy to hear from some who didn't just respond by saying "if you already have coolant making it past the gasket, head's off". I appreciate everyone's time, point of view, and responses here, it's all good discussion. Additionally, I'm not trying to say that I'm going to try this and throw it all back together and not even test it before I try to fire it up and bend a rod. What I'm suggesting is torquring everything down, pressurizing the system and seeing what happens. I would think that would be a good test for people here who have experienced similar issues to mine. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. If it does, we'll then, I may save someone like me time, money and the possibility of causing damage to the short block by removing the head. I readily invite someone to tell me that they've tried what I'm suggesting and it hasn't worked. Once again, thank you for those of you who respond with useful and helpful information.

BLKROKT

Ok, fair enough. Totally my bad. Good luck.

Jasonoff

I'd still give it a try. If the cooling system holds pressure it's likely fine.

If not, it's only wasted man hours...

jclaus98

Exactly what I'm thinking, my labor is free. If it doesn't work, then all I'm doing is pulling the studs and coolant back out and I'm right back where I need to be to get the head off. I figure it's worth a shot. Thanks for the reply guys.

jclaus98

So, I got into the sick puppy this weekend and much to my surprise, I had not a single bolt come out cracked, rusted or visibly stretched in any fashion. They all looked brand new. I forgot to take a few pictures of those, but will when I get home tonight and post those. I want to get the small amount of sealant they each have around the top of the fastener off and see if any of them have stress cracks where the head meets the shaft of the bolt, but I didn't see anything on initial inspection. I worked methodically, replacing each bolt with a Weistec stud, in the proper torque sequence, following the Weistec directions carefully. I'll take some pics of them in the head tonight as well and report back. Although none of them were cracked or broken, the torque required to loosen them was pale in comparison to what the torque required to torque the studs down was. I don't know what the actual difference in torque is since the factory service manual uses degrees of rotation as opposed to the torque specs that Weistec gives, but I can tell you I was working MUCH harder to get the nuts to 110 ft lbs than I was to get the bolts loose. At any rate, all ten are in on the driver's side and I'm anxiously awaiting my new pressure tester to see if the studs have re-established the head seal and go from there. If the cylinder in question starts weeping coolant then I know they're all coming back out and I'm adding a head gasket set to my list of parts. I've also been filming most of my progress with two different Go Pro cameras and will, when all is said and done, post a series of videos on You Tube for others wishing to tackle this job by themselves. Finally, I took some pics with my borescope to show just what the inside of the cylinder can look like when you have the low coolant issue. Obviously mine was nowhere near what happens to some with regard to hydrolock, etc., but mine was definitely burning coolant, if only a very small amount. Very obvious by the look of the spark plug as well as what the piston looks like where the problem is with my particular engine.

deadlyvt

Hopefully it works out for you

jclaus98

Crossing my fingers, toes and eyes; I see you have the same model, have you done yours yet?

deadlyvt

Nope, doing it this winter though to be safe ...

jclaus98

How many miles on yours?

jclaus98

Took some pics of the bolts and the studs in place as well as pressure testing the system. Gonna leave it pressurized all night and see what happens. Again, crossing my fingers none of the cylinders are full of coolant in the morning. Wish me luck!

deadlyvt

29k Kms

Critter

The piston/cylinder with the coolant leakage or burning as you state would have been clean unlike the others that would have the carbon build up. This is quite obvious when the head is off, also the combustion chamber will also be clean of deposits.
During the firing of the cylinder the coolant turns to steam and thus the cleaning action, 1 drop of coolant will expand approx. 15000 times when the transfer from liquid to gas occurs.
Just sayin!

jclaus98

You are absolutely correct critter, on all accounts but one; this engine just started burning coolant and so what I'm seeing is the carbon on the top of the piston is "bubbling" up, almost like when you use an aircraft paint stripper on paint? So, it had carbon on the piston prior to it starting to the leak and now what I'm seeing is that carbon layer lifting off the top of the piston and yes, after an extended period, it would end up completely clean in comparison to the others. But, since the leaking symptoms and low coolant light started less than 500 miles ago, that cylinder still has the carbon remnants from before the leak started. Also, I could be wrong, but I believe coolant isn't just water and ethylene glycol that would vaporize in the extreme pressure and heat built inside a cylinder, but also contains a lubricant for the pump? I'm guessing that lubricant is what I'm seeing left behind giving that cylinder the sort of oil slick/carbon residue mess I'm seeing inside that cylinder. Just for informational purposes, this engine has approximately 25k miles which translates to roughly 40k kms for the rest of the world.

jclaus98

Update: Checked everything this morning after letting the system sit overnight with pressure on it and the good news is all the cylinders on the driver's side where I installed the studs are dry. However, now the opposing cylinder is wet. So, I'm going to button everything up on the driver's side and repeat the process on the passenger side. But, at least for now, it would appear as though the studs have reestablished the head gasket seal on the driver's side which was clearly leaking before I started this process. Will continue to report my progress as I move forward, unless no one cares, in which case I will stop wasting people's time making updates.

Jasonoff

Thanks, I'm in for the update. It's good info for a select few

deadlyvt

You mean the other bank of cylinders right? Why didn't you do the whole thing at once lazy butt... Or was there a new episode of American idol on?
Jk nice to see the one side appear to hold up gl

wadejg

Definitely keep posting. Interested. I decided to just get the updated Mercedes bolts along with ARP cam bolts, SLS valve buckets, and ARP cam phaser bolts. Got the updated bolts for only $10 each. Found it hard to justify the ARP pieces without a supercharger. Gonna get them installed in the next couple of weeks.

Regards,
Justin Wade
2007 R63 AMG

jclaus98

I know right?!? I was distracted by the shiny object outside! Any who, I'm trying not to grenade the glorious m156, so I'm doing one side at a time and verifying that the seal is holding. It's not a simple process, and I don't want to miss anything, I want to make sure I get everything right. So, yeah, I am also excited that the one side is holding, now I'm just crossing my fingers that I have the same luck with the other side. Stay tuned.

jclaus98

Just an FYI Justin, the updated bolt design, while they are a better design than the previous bolt design, they are still a torque to yeild bolt, which means they are designed to stretch. The ARP studs are very rigid and they can sustain a much greater torque than even those updated factory bolts. Even if you aren't running the blower, they can still stretch like the older, poorer design bolts and cause leaks.

Merc63

I think you'll be fine. Those studs put an enormous amount of torque down on that head. Those bolts look brand new to what I've removed.

If I recall correctly, when doing the rotational torque sequence on mb head bolts, we were hitting around 80ftlbs.