Could the C63 snap as quickly as in that M4 crash ?
01-10-2015, 08:46 AM
#101
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2011 Range Rover Sport SC
While I strongly agree that hooning and ‘kicking it out’ on the street are just f'ing stupid, I'm on the other side of the fence from most of you about use of TC. I usually turn TC fully off as soon as the car is warmed up, because the TC can be so intrusive and because I find the car easier to drive without it.
Mercfan64 said in eloquently in a prior discussion:
"I drove without traction control for 33 years. So of course I find the behavior of the car more predictable with traction control off. It always surprises me when the power is cut. Lol, I think, "Let's cross this busy highway now", the car thinks, "Let's cross half way and shut off all power because one tire's going to slip a little." Just another traction control "Oh $#1t" moment for me, give me a little one tire peel any day rather than an unpredictable power cut."
And it's not just those unexpected power-off moments - the subsequent and equally abrupt power-on can be equally unsettling. I'm far more comfortable, and feel a lot safer, with the TC fully off. There's no excuse for having a TC that's as slow and overcontrolling as the one Mercedes has provided on these cars.
These cars clearly DO have enough power to snap like the BMW did and flogging it, even with the TC on, can lead to ugly surprises. Those are best saved for someplace like an autocross where there's not much you can hurt other than your pride . . .
Mercfan64 said in eloquently in a prior discussion:
"I drove without traction control for 33 years. So of course I find the behavior of the car more predictable with traction control off. It always surprises me when the power is cut. Lol, I think, "Let's cross this busy highway now", the car thinks, "Let's cross half way and shut off all power because one tire's going to slip a little." Just another traction control "Oh $#1t" moment for me, give me a little one tire peel any day rather than an unpredictable power cut."
And it's not just those unexpected power-off moments - the subsequent and equally abrupt power-on can be equally unsettling. I'm far more comfortable, and feel a lot safer, with the TC fully off. There's no excuse for having a TC that's as slow and overcontrolling as the one Mercedes has provided on these cars.
These cars clearly DO have enough power to snap like the BMW did and flogging it, even with the TC on, can lead to ugly surprises. Those are best saved for someplace like an autocross where there's not much you can hurt other than your pride . . .
Even other more affordable cars, like the Mustang GT in 1985, were only 205 HP and a 0-60 time of 6.4 seconds.
Yes, the cars were lighter in weight at the time due to fewer safety equipment requirements (1985 Mustang GT weighed 3157 lbs with 205 HP. 2015 Mustang GT weighs 3705 lbs, with 435 HP).
But we're talking about a more than 100% increase in horsepower, with a roughly 17% increase in weight.
Traction control was significantly less of a requirement in 20 and 30 year old cars with 50% less power than today.
All that being said, I agree that learning how your car handles WITHOUT TC enabled is a good skill to have. I agree with others though that driving around city streets with TC off to "learn how your car handles" and to "make you a better driver" is the wrong approach.
Learn how your car handles with TC off in a controlled, isolated environment (ie, HPDE, Skid Control school, AMG Academy, BMW Club et al)....not on city streets.
I will also admit that the AMG TC is pretty intrusive on what seem to be ordinary conditions (I can recall feeding some throttle and only after a brief moment wondering why that felt slow...and noticing the flashing TC light on my dash). And I can also recall thinking at those same times that "Huh...tires were colder than I thought....road looked clean but maybe was slicker than I thought" etc. And I simply kept going on my merry way, cognizant of the fact that either the car or the roads (or both) weren't ready for more power.
The reality is, the roads we drive on are not the swept, air-dried, patched tarmac of the race tracks of our dreams. They are roads that are driven on by people who's primary motivation is to get their kids to school, or themselves to work....they're used by city buses, transport trucks and taxis....all of which may be vehicles that are maintained in a less than meticulous manner.
Nobody in the world is as good of a driver as they think they are.
Patrick
01-10-2015, 10:20 AM
#102
MBWorld Fanatic!
I also go 10kph over the limit on residential roads and 20-30kph over the limit on the hwy. 
01-11-2015, 02:21 AM
#103
MBWorld Fanatic!
Yea, going over the speeding limit is a different story. I'm usually 10-15mph over in my area. Doesn't matter much here and we all know if you go 40 in a 40 you're being more dangerous.
Cheers
01-12-2015, 03:32 AM
#104
Senior Member
Welcome to the benz forums where everyone who wears a helmet and drives around parking cones in an empty lot is an F1 driver.
I recently moved over from the M3post and must admit I miss it sometimes. They tend to have more relevant content and pictures. I wish the C63 platform had as many tuners as the e9x does.
Example: http://www.m3post.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=302
But if you want to here why Weistec is better than * (now and until forever) you're in the right place!
I recently moved over from the M3post and must admit I miss it sometimes. They tend to have more relevant content and pictures. I wish the C63 platform had as many tuners as the e9x does.
Example: http://www.m3post.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=302
But if you want to here why Weistec is better than * (now and until forever) you're in the right place!
01-12-2015, 11:12 AM
#105
Member
01-12-2015, 01:05 PM
#108
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 3,718
Received 793 Likes
on
545 Posts
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars, EQE 4Matic+ on order
Just came back from the MB Winter Driving course yesterday where we had a lot of AMGs (among non-AMG MB cars) on three skid pads and an iced-over parking lot at Mosport. Just for good measure, they also had a car with all-seasons and one with summer tires (three identical E-class sedans, one with with winters and the other two as above).
After driving the living daylights out of all of them and trying to stop or correct various skids, anyone who thinks that ESP and/or winter tires are not necessary is absolutely delusional. Sure, with the ESP off you can drift until you have no more gas/rubber/ice left, but when it comes to safety and being able to maneuver, the difference between the all-seasons and winters (the car with the summers was completely undriveable) or between ESP on or off are night and day.
P.S. When it comes to the TC, it isn't about your abilitly to get moving because you're able to modulate the throttle better. It's about the systems' ability to brake an individual (usually inside rear) wheel to change the pivot point of the car's rotation once you are in a skid which it does in 1/1000th of a second. Unless you have four legs and separate brake pedals for each wheel in your vehicle and can react in the same amount of time, nothing that you as as a driver can possibly do can even remotely compete with that. End of story.
After driving the living daylights out of all of them and trying to stop or correct various skids, anyone who thinks that ESP and/or winter tires are not necessary is absolutely delusional. Sure, with the ESP off you can drift until you have no more gas/rubber/ice left, but when it comes to safety and being able to maneuver, the difference between the all-seasons and winters (the car with the summers was completely undriveable) or between ESP on or off are night and day.
P.S. When it comes to the TC, it isn't about your abilitly to get moving because you're able to modulate the throttle better. It's about the systems' ability to brake an individual (usually inside rear) wheel to change the pivot point of the car's rotation once you are in a skid which it does in 1/1000th of a second. Unless you have four legs and separate brake pedals for each wheel in your vehicle and can react in the same amount of time, nothing that you as as a driver can possibly do can even remotely compete with that. End of story.
Last edited by Diabolis; 01-12-2015 at 01:14 PM.
01-12-2015, 01:25 PM
#109
Member
Just came back from the MB Winter Driving course yesterday where we had a lot of AMGs (among non-AMG MB cars) on three skid pads and an iced-over parking lot at Mosport. Just for good measure, they also had a car with all-seasons and one with summer tires (three identical E-class sedans, one with with winters and the other two as above).
After driving the living daylights out of all of them and trying to stop or correct various skids, anyone who thinks that ESP and/or winter tires are not necessary is absolutely delusional. Sure, with the ESP off you can drift until you have no more gas/rubber/ice left, but when it comes to safety and being able to maneuver, the difference between the all-seasons and winters (the car with the summers was completely undriveable) or between ESP on or off are night and day.
P.S. When it comes to the TC, it isn't about your abilitly to get moving because you're able to modulate the throttle better. It's about the systems' ability to brake an individual (usually inside rear) wheel to change the pivot point of the car's rotation once you are in a skid which it does in 1/1000th of a second. Unless you have four legs and separate brake pedals for each wheel in your vehicle and can react in the same amount of time, nothing that you as as a driver can possibly do can even remotely compete with that. End of story.
After driving the living daylights out of all of them and trying to stop or correct various skids, anyone who thinks that ESP and/or winter tires are not necessary is absolutely delusional. Sure, with the ESP off you can drift until you have no more gas/rubber/ice left, but when it comes to safety and being able to maneuver, the difference between the all-seasons and winters (the car with the summers was completely undriveable) or between ESP on or off are night and day.
P.S. When it comes to the TC, it isn't about your abilitly to get moving because you're able to modulate the throttle better. It's about the systems' ability to brake an individual (usually inside rear) wheel to change the pivot point of the car's rotation once you are in a skid which it does in 1/1000th of a second. Unless you have four legs and separate brake pedals for each wheel in your vehicle and can react in the same amount of time, nothing that you as as a driver can possibly do can even remotely compete with that. End of story.
01-12-2015, 11:03 PM
#110
MBWorld Fanatic!
Just came back from the MB Winter Driving course yesterday where we had a lot of AMGs (among non-AMG MB cars) on three skid pads and an iced-over parking lot at Mosport. Just for good measure, they also had a car with all-seasons and one with summer tires (three identical E-class sedans, one with with winters and the other two as above).
After driving the living daylights out of all of them and trying to stop or correct various skids, anyone who thinks that ESP and/or winter tires are not necessary is absolutely delusional. Sure, with the ESP off you can drift until you have no more gas/rubber/ice left, but when it comes to safety and being able to maneuver, the difference between the all-seasons and winters (the car with the summers was completely undriveable) or between ESP on or off are night and day.
P.S. When it comes to the TC, it isn't about your abilitly to get moving because you're able to modulate the throttle better. It's about the systems' ability to brake an individual (usually inside rear) wheel to change the pivot point of the car's rotation once you are in a skid which it does in 1/1000th of a second. Unless you have four legs and separate brake pedals for each wheel in your vehicle and can react in the same amount of time, nothing that you as as a driver can possibly do can even remotely compete with that. End of story.
After driving the living daylights out of all of them and trying to stop or correct various skids, anyone who thinks that ESP and/or winter tires are not necessary is absolutely delusional. Sure, with the ESP off you can drift until you have no more gas/rubber/ice left, but when it comes to safety and being able to maneuver, the difference between the all-seasons and winters (the car with the summers was completely undriveable) or between ESP on or off are night and day.
P.S. When it comes to the TC, it isn't about your abilitly to get moving because you're able to modulate the throttle better. It's about the systems' ability to brake an individual (usually inside rear) wheel to change the pivot point of the car's rotation once you are in a skid which it does in 1/1000th of a second. Unless you have four legs and separate brake pedals for each wheel in your vehicle and can react in the same amount of time, nothing that you as as a driver can possibly do can even remotely compete with that. End of story.
01-12-2015, 11:16 PM
#111
MBWorld Fanatic!
Here's an interesting video, starting at the 2 minute mark, of a MBZ doing avoidance maneuvers on ice. It's tested first with ESP off and then with it on. Difference is dramatic, but the driver seems to have learned skid control at the same school as the BMW guy whose curb leaping actually started this thread.
01-13-2015, 12:25 AM
#112
MBWorld Fanatic!
Here's an interesting video, starting at the 2 minute mark, of a MBZ doing avoidance maneuvers on ice. It's tested first with ESP off and then with it on. Difference is dramatic, but the driver seems to have learned skid control at the same school as the BMW guy whose curb leaping actually started this thread.
How Effective is Stability Control - YouTube
How Effective is Stability Control - YouTube
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiff_Needell
Also, Tiff was driving on a solid sheet of ice, at 70 mph, with no traction control, and still managed to avoid the first two obstacles.
With ESP on, he aced the test. I don't know how he could have done much better?
Last edited by zibby43; 01-13-2015 at 12:32 AM.
01-13-2015, 01:52 AM
#113
Senior Member
I'm sorry your parents were so useless that they couldn't afford to get you a nice car
Don't hate on people that are more "privileged"
01-13-2015, 08:09 AM
#114
MBWorld Fanatic!
01-13-2015, 07:59 PM
#116
Member
You win this time, Kimeran. But I'll be back.
Last edited by unruin; 01-13-2015 at 09:15 PM.
01-13-2015, 11:20 PM
#118
MBWorld Fanatic!
No argument that he aced it with the ESP on - that was impressive.
I'm not so impressed with the ESP off performance. Maybe this all happened faster than I think, but take a look at 3:12 where he is starting into a clockwise spin . . . and his front tires are being turned still further to the right. He eventually reversed the steering and started to turn into the slide, but he never turned the wheel far enough and by then it was probably way beyond salvage anyway.
Or maybe he just had one tire that was 1.5 pounds low! :-)
01-13-2015, 11:29 PM
#119
MBWorld Fanatic!
Tiff is an excellent driver, a great personality in the automotive world.
And Lol i see what you did there at the end hehehe.
And Lol i see what you did there at the end hehehe.
Tiff Needell, huh? I need to re-prioritize my TV time and get a little more Fifth Gear exposure. It would probably be good for my health!
No argument that he aced it with the ESP on - that was impressive.
I'm not so impressed with the ESP off performance. Maybe this all happened faster than I think, but take a look at 3:12 where he is starting into a clockwise spin . . . and his front tires are being turned still further to the right. He eventually reversed the steering and started to turn into the slide, but he never turned the wheel far enough and by then it was probably way beyond salvage anyway.
Or maybe he just had one tire that was 1.5 pounds low! :-)
No argument that he aced it with the ESP on - that was impressive.
I'm not so impressed with the ESP off performance. Maybe this all happened faster than I think, but take a look at 3:12 where he is starting into a clockwise spin . . . and his front tires are being turned still further to the right. He eventually reversed the steering and started to turn into the slide, but he never turned the wheel far enough and by then it was probably way beyond salvage anyway.
Or maybe he just had one tire that was 1.5 pounds low! :-)
01-13-2015, 11:33 PM
#120
Out Of Control!!
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 11,684
Received 2,024 Likes
on
1,413 Posts
2014 E63S; AMS 100 octane ecu tune; edok tcu tune; BB intakes; dyno tuned
01-14-2015, 01:29 AM
#121
Hey genius, TC in your stock p31 car and my stage 3 car are two totally different worlds. I can hit 1/8th throttle in 1st gear trying to merge and it will drastically cut power come back on and cut it again leaving me sitting there with my thumb up my ***.
I don't know if you know or anyone else in this thread, since everyone seems to think TC is the greatest thing since sliced bread and you're a complete idiot for even trying to drive without it, but in reality, even if you have TC off completely and you hit the brakes hard, the system automatically comes back on.
01-14-2015, 02:06 AM
#122
MBWorld Fanatic!
Tiff Needell, huh? I need to re-prioritize my TV time and get a little more Fifth Gear exposure. It would probably be good for my health!
No argument that he aced it with the ESP on - that was impressive.
I'm not so impressed with the ESP off performance. Maybe this all happened faster than I think, but take a look at 3:12 where he is starting into a clockwise spin . . . and his front tires are being turned still further to the right. He eventually reversed the steering and started to turn into the slide, but he never turned the wheel far enough and by then it was probably way beyond salvage anyway.
No argument that he aced it with the ESP on - that was impressive.
I'm not so impressed with the ESP off performance. Maybe this all happened faster than I think, but take a look at 3:12 where he is starting into a clockwise spin . . . and his front tires are being turned still further to the right. He eventually reversed the steering and started to turn into the slide, but he never turned the wheel far enough and by then it was probably way beyond salvage anyway.
There's a great episode of Fifth Gear where he and another guy take turns driving some relatively thick bimbos around a track to see which driver can get the bimbos' heart rates higher (bimbos are wearing heart rate monitors).
I think the car Tiff used was an E9X M3. I'll try to find it.
And I see your argument re: the no ESP performance.
Well played.
01-14-2015, 02:31 AM
#123
Senior Member
Well I guess they didn't love you and wanted you dead, I can sorta see why
01-14-2015, 08:40 AM
#125
MBWorld Fanatic!
