A couple of things to keep in mind though....30 years ago, even the high-performance sports cars of the day were only producing 200-250 HP (C4 Corvette in 1985 with the L98 had only 230 HP, for example). Even the vaunted Corvette ZR1 in 1995 had only 330 HP, with a 0-60 time of 4.4 seconds (so less powered and slower than our C63s).

Even other more affordable cars, like the Mustang GT in 1985, were only 205 HP and a 0-60 time of 6.4 seconds.

Yes, the cars were lighter in weight at the time due to fewer safety equipment requirements (1985 Mustang GT weighed 3157 lbs with 205 HP. 2015 Mustang GT weighs 3705 lbs, with 435 HP).

But we're talking about a more than 100% increase in horsepower, with a roughly 17% increase in weight.

Traction control was significantly less of a requirement in 20 and 30 year old cars with 50% less power than today.

All that being said, I agree that learning how your car handles WITHOUT TC enabled is a good skill to have. I agree with others though that driving around city streets with TC off to "learn how your car handles" and to "make you a better driver" is the wrong approach.

Learn how your car handles with TC off in a controlled, isolated environment (ie, HPDE, Skid Control school, AMG Academy, BMW Club et al)....not on city streets.

I will also admit that the AMG TC is pretty intrusive on what seem to be ordinary conditions (I can recall feeding some throttle and only after a brief moment wondering why that felt slow...and noticing the flashing TC light on my dash). And I can also recall thinking at those same times that "Huh...tires were colder than I thought....road looked clean but maybe was slicker than I thought" etc. And I simply kept going on my merry way, cognizant of the fact that either the car or the roads (or both) weren't ready for more power.

The reality is, the roads we drive on are not the swept, air-dried, patched tarmac of the race tracks of our dreams. They are roads that are driven on by people who's primary motivation is to get their kids to school, or themselves to work....they're used by city buses, transport trucks and taxis....all of which may be vehicles that are maintained in a less than meticulous manner.

Nobody in the world is as good of a driver as they think they are.



Patrick

 

I accept that. I also go 10kph over the limit on residential roads and 20-30kph over the limit on the hwy.

 

Yea, going over the speeding limit is a different story. I'm usually 10-15mph over in my area. Doesn't matter much here and we all know if you go 40 in a 40 you're being more dangerous.

Cheers

 

Why are you even here? Go back to your old forum then

 

Big words coming from someone who didn't even buy their own car. Do your parents know that you're using their computer again?

 

How's this for "relevant"?

 

 

Just came back from the MB Winter Driving course yesterday where we had a lot of AMGs (among non-AMG MB cars) on three skid pads and an iced-over parking lot at Mosport. Just for good measure, they also had a car with all-seasons and one with summer tires (three identical E-class sedans, one with with winters and the other two as above).

After driving the living daylights out of all of them and trying to stop or correct various skids, anyone who thinks that ESP and/or winter tires are not necessary is absolutely delusional. Sure, with the ESP off you can drift until you have no more gas/rubber/ice left, but when it comes to safety and being able to maneuver, the difference between the all-seasons and winters (the car with the summers was completely undriveable) or between ESP on or off are night and day.

P.S. When it comes to the TC, it isn't about your abilitly to get moving because you're able to modulate the throttle better. It's about the systems' ability to brake an individual (usually inside rear) wheel to change the pivot point of the car's rotation once you are in a skid which it does in 1/1000th of a second. Unless you have four legs and separate brake pedals for each wheel in your vehicle and can react in the same amount of time, nothing that you as as a driver can possibly do can even remotely compete with that. End of story.

 

I think we have a winner, folks. We will, however, allow Merc63 the customary 30 seconds to post his rebuttal. Aaaaand GO.

 

The difference in tires is a no-brainer, but the TC comments left me with questions. The TC stops your tires from slipping when you're accelerating. Turning ESP completely off disables the TC function and prevents the ECU from cutting throttle when it senses rear tire slip. It looks like turning the ESP off also kills stability control, but the manual suggests that stability control kicks back in if you're braking. Recent autocross experiences seem to support that. Is that different from what you found on the ice?

 

Here's an interesting video, starting at the 2 minute mark, of a MBZ doing avoidance maneuvers on ice. It's tested first with ESP off and then with it on. Difference is dramatic, but the driver seems to have learned skid control at the same school as the BMW guy whose curb leaping actually started this thread.

 

The driver is Tiff Needell, former Formula One driver. He now hosts one of the most popular TV car shows - Fifth Gear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiff_Needell
Also, Tiff was driving on a solid sheet of ice, at 70 mph, with no traction control, and still managed to avoid the first two obstacles.

With ESP on, he aced the test. I don't know how he could have done much better?

 

Really? You trying to go with personal attacks?
I'm sorry your parents were so useless that they couldn't afford to get you a nice car
Don't hate on people that are more "privileged"

 

 

Look at the tire tracks behind the wrecked white C63 at the end of this vid. Hooning around and it goes left into a post.

 

Seriously! I am STILL mad at my parents 13 years for buying me a new Z06 as a high school graduation gift instead of getting me that 3-year old sedan I always wanted.

You win this time, Kimeran. But I'll be back.

 

guy makes mistake driving his car, gets castrated on every forum.

we all make mistakes, laugh at him and move on.

 

Tiff Needell, huh? I need to re-prioritize my TV time and get a little more Fifth Gear exposure. It would probably be good for my health!

No argument that he aced it with the ESP on - that was impressive.

I'm not so impressed with the ESP off performance. Maybe this all happened faster than I think, but take a look at 3:12 where he is starting into a clockwise spin . . . and his front tires are being turned still further to the right. He eventually reversed the steering and started to turn into the slide, but he never turned the wheel far enough and by then it was probably way beyond salvage anyway.

Or maybe he just had one tire that was 1.5 pounds low! :-)

 

Tiff is an excellent driver, a great personality in the automotive world.

And Lol i see what you did there at the end hehehe.

 

TIFF tiff tiff!!!

 

Hey genius, TC in your stock p31 car and my stage 3 car are two totally different worlds. I can hit 1/8th throttle in 1st gear trying to merge and it will drastically cut power come back on and cut it again leaving me sitting there with my thumb up my ***.

I don't know if you know or anyone else in this thread, since everyone seems to think TC is the greatest thing since sliced bread and you're a complete idiot for even trying to drive without it, but in reality, even if you have TC off completely and you hit the brakes hard, the system automatically comes back on.

 

Tiff is a good dude. He and Chris Harris are good buddies.

There's a great episode of Fifth Gear where he and another guy take turns driving some relatively thick bimbos around a track to see which driver can get the bimbos' heart rates higher (bimbos are wearing heart rate monitors).

I think the car Tiff used was an E9X M3. I'll try to find it.


And I see your argument re: the no ESP performance.



Well played.

 

They bought you a Z06 straight out of school?
Well I guess they didn't love you and wanted you dead, I can sorta see why

 

amazing thread

 

Bingo. Try it in the snow. Slam on the brakes and it kicks in.

I will continue to be an idiot and drive with TC off