Originally Posted by C63amg Tokyo

They are all nice cars, can all be tuned, are all fast. However "out the box" the CBS is better in every way except the turning radius. The body is sick, it's faster, the interior is amazing and just feels like a completely different car! My last c63 was tuned and faster then my CBS but was hard to get grip. My CBS grips a lot more with the wider tires. I believe the CBS has an e class rear axel? And as VaclavSV said all the extras, coil overs, bigger brakes, etc etc etc.

Also the black series holds its value wayyyy more than the 507 or p31 (can't say for certain in every country but assuming it's the same as here) I can easily sell my CBS for 150k usd right now in Tokyo. There are only 800 world wide minus the few that have been wrecked. The price is going up in Japan already for this car. There are only 50 here and I have the only matte silver one in Japan. I searched for this car for two years in any color with the 4 seater package and luckily found a mint one but it took me two years lol. I could have easily bought a cheaper 507 and been perfectly happy or kept my old c63 but I couldn't be happier with the CBS.

In my opinion the black series is a piece of Mercedes history, one of their best engines produced, and simply an amazing machine!

Originally Posted by Mc81b

I fully agree with you,i was even sourcing worldwide with RHD units (even harder to get) and the closest i can find that is close to stock is back home
I might consider keeping the Black Series Stock as it is and keep my C63 W204 Sedan with the mods instead . . .
Now i have a question for Black Series owners
Is it possible to actually retrofit additional back seats if the unit you have does not comes with it?

Originally Posted by C63amg Tokyo

I tried to find a way to get the rear seats in and was told by everyone (Indy shops, Mercedes, custom work shops) that it's pretty much impossible. So I hunted for two years instead until I found the 4 seater.

Might be possible but I was unable to find a way

Originally Posted by BLKROKT

You're imagining these things.

My P31 does NOT shift when in Manual under any circumstances. I've banged on the rev limiter enough at the track and on missed shifts to know.

Colder plugs are not an engine component, comeon.

And the tuned P31/507 vs your car, the other cars must not have been tuned correctly or the same tune, because otherwise it's not possible for you to have 40whp more with the same set of mods. NOT possible. SAME engine, SAME drivetrain, NO differences.

I know the BS is really cool, but you don't have to convince everyone by making things up.

Originally Posted by VaclavSV

Ill be content leaving this community in the near future as idiots like you keep trying to start **** without any reasoning or proof -just speculation (you could be a little polite when trying to correct me too instead of coming across rude, it will help you out in life). Ill post a video up soon of the shifts as well so you all know what Im talking about. And who knows maybe BLKROKT's car is tuned which is why their car doesnt shift for them......... but stock theres a difference there

Originally Posted by BLKROKT

Listen, I don't know what is wrong with your mates cars, or what is missing in the equation, but you are out of your mind if you think a BS engine is any more special than a P31, or makes 40whp more with the same mods. You are simply wrong here because it's not possible.

Originally Posted by BLKROKT

You're calling ME an idiot when you make ridiculous statements and get your panties all in a bunch when I point out the WRONG information and consistencies in your information and stories? You must be kidding. I don't see what I said that could cause you to come unhinged like this - I have no beef with you, just your wrong information, so why not calm down a bit.

Listen, I don't know what is wrong with your mates cars, or what is missing in the equation, but you are out of your mind if you think a BS engine is any more special than a P31, or makes 40whp more with the same mods. You are simply wrong here because it's not possible. A FBO C63 that only makes 10whp more than your tune-only BS clearly indicates something is wrong. It's like, obvious.

And you are the one who considers plugs to be a critical change between the BS and other cars, or doesn't know that they all came with a diff. Was pointing that out hurtful to you?

My post wasn't rude - sorry if I don't say 'please' and 'thank you' and 'excuse me' and 'with sugar on top' when pointing out all your errors to save your little feelings. I'll treat you more delicately from now on if I respond to anything in the future.

I'm the one who came back with all of the 'proof'. Actually none was needed, these are just facts about our cars and I was clearing up your misinformation/misunderstanding. You're just running your mouth now.

Originally Posted by VaclavSV

Why dont you put a BS and 507 and P31 on a dyno on the same day and see what the outcome is! We did and Im just posting the information. My BS was tune only then! SAME MODS AS THE 507! -If it made less hp than a 507 I would post that without any shame, fact is, it didnt.

Originally Posted by VaclavSV

The engines are either different or the BS has less power loss through the drivetrain...... The only 507 Ive seen put down more power was one with ported/polished heads, full headers, airbox, tune, etc. even then he was 10whp more

Originally Posted by VaclavSV

Guys lets be REAL for all the 507 owners.... they bought a car superior to the black series because it was released 'at a later date' .... yes Ive actually been told that.

Anyways as someone whos owned a P31 Sedan, and Black Series... also have seen many 507s as friends own them here in Ontatio. Ive seen them all on dynos and everything the same/different about them.

Here you go OP, you went get a more honest opinion than this -Trust me!

P30 then P31 Package ... was developed by AMG as a performance upgrade to the regular C63. This included the following;
- Forged internals (probably the hardest thing to see visually)
- Different Tune (the tune on paper was 481hp, however on the dyno after a ECU tune they make IDENTICAL power to a 507... the 507 and P31 cars have the same engine... sorry 507 owners but your car is just a P31 C63 with cosmetic mods, and a different tune ECU tune from the factory. you have nothing physically different about your engine... but according to you Im probably lying.)
-2 Piece rotors for braking performance (same brakes on the 507) I laughed so hard this summer when a 507 owner told me his rotors were composite with carbon pads
- Differential (standard C63 didnt have a Diff Standard, P31 and 507 have the same diff....)
- Carbon fiber accents (The P31 package added CF accents over the standard C63


Black Series
-Forged engine internals but added additional SLS components over the P31/507
- COOLING ... one search on the forum and you will see the huge difference in cooling from a standard C63 or 507. More cooling everywhere you need it
-Body kit, the Black series added a wide body kit that completely changes the look/aggression of the car and allows the car to accommodate larger rubber. 255Front and 285 rear (Rcomps if you get the track pack which added a diff cooler) The wide body and wider tires allows the car to actually grip, again trust me when I say this (Ive owned both) A LOT better than the other C63s. The only downside to this is an Awful turn radius as every other black series will owner will admit
- So I mentioned Diff cooler which the car does that, but in addition to that it has a different differential than what comes on the other C63s
-Suspension the C63 Black Series has coil over suspension by KW but branded as a mercedes part. Ive taken these off to replace with clubsport, V3, and then because neither worked OEM. The Coil is beefier than both options made for the C63. I have a thread somewhere on here which shows how different the Black Series suspension is to standard KW coils.... I cannot comment on how a C63 with V3s or Clubsport would drive compared to a BS cause Ive never tired but the parts are different.
- The whole rear axle of the Black series is different! Its wider, built stronger, and gives the car a completely different rear end feeling. I dont know how you make a C63 feel like this with just suspension and wider rubber.. theres more going on.
- The Black series lacks sound proofing (weight savings? or just annoyance)
- The stock exhaust is louder (nothing a x-pipe or headers cant fix)
-Black series has an interior that imo is more special than the 507...red seatbelts, alcantara, CF black series trim (piece on the dash costs $3K and theres a 77 person wait list, I know this because someone tried to buy mine)
-Rear seats, or lack of rear seats -it was an option in the BS cars
-AMG Performance media, track telemetry (I think SOME 507s come w/ this, Im not 100% sure but they wouldnt get diff temps, etc.)
-CF Accents, Around the whole base of the car and on the trunk... 507 never got that.
-TCU tune... This is definitely different, the trans might have physical differences but I havent taken any apart. The cars shift differently, and the gear is changed on the black series. Also there is no 'automatic shift' in a black series in manual mode. in a P31 or 507 if youre in M the car will shift for you when you get to the limiter. In the BS this DOES NOT happen.
-lack of parking senors/blind spot sensor.... again weight reduction?
-Brakes. The BS comes with larger 2 piece rotors front and rear and calipers off the E63. yes it has better brakes... even better than composite rotors with carbon pads
-Forged aluminum wheels (P31 and 507 come w/ cast wheels)
- Under car protection. JAck the car up and the black series has more skid protection than a jeep wrangler LOL... the other C63s dont have this.
-Lightweight Aluminum trunk... the trunk on the Black series is lighter than a 507 or P31 FACT!


Okay thats about all I can think of... on to the 507

First it needs to be noted as stated before the 507 edition was created by AMG to sell off the W204.

They added the following differences from a P31;

-Stock engine tune (cars ran nearly identical 507 made more torque before ECU flash)
-BS Hood
-Painted black accents (Grille, LED covers, BS hood inserts.... I did this on my P31 before 507 came out... call me a trend setter .. although other members here added the BS hood before 507 was released as well )
-MAtte paint option. Edition 1 P31 C63 coupe was the first C63 offered in MAtte Black, the Edition 1 Sedan was offered in MAtte grey. Then the BS added MAtte white to those colours. 507 got the MAtte paint options but then added decal stripes.... com'on we all know how much HP Stickers add......)
-19" Alloys... Different wheel design... I approve .... still a CAST Wheel
-slightly different interior than a P31... contrast stitching, badges etc. Nothing that the Edition 1 had differently over the P31.

Okay so to recap;

P31 was a performance/slight engineering upgrade on the regular C63. The Black Series was a more significant perfornace/engineering upgrade on the P31, and the 507 was a marketing exercise/software upgrade over the P31.

Overall they are all amazing cars and I love each one

Originally Posted by BLKROKT

"Not possible" was probably the wrong choice of words. But like your diff comment, people should know what I mean. Mechanically, there are exactly zero engine differences between the P31/507 and BS. So, like for like, on the same tune with the same mods, they should make exactly the same power. To suggest that yours makes 40whp more due to some magical engine differences nobody else is aware of is naive at best. Because, again, there are none. And not only that, but your MCT is identical to that found in the lowly inferior P31/507 too. "Less power loss through the drivetrain"? Uh, no. The truth is that there is either something wrong/worn with the other car, or the tune/mods are different. AMG doesn't make engines out of the box with 40whp variation.


And my comment was directed towards the FBO 507 with head work that only dynoed 10whp higher than your tune-only BS. Something doesn't add up because it SHOULD be much higher. Again, there are no differences in engine internals, which if you read my post is what I was trying to get at before you flipped out.

Stop taking everything so personally Sally.

Originally Posted by Mc81b

Maybe we can safely assume that the Black Series is lighter with different body components and total unladen weight as compared to the 507?
I do not really believe that the 'one man,one engine' will create that much of a difference in bhp especially.

Originally Posted by HBC350

Your 507 envy is obvious. Maybe someday.

Originally Posted by Diabolis

Vaclav... IMHO a rather important thing you're forgetting here is that Barry modded the living ***** out of your BS, so what you're seeing on the dyno is Barry's Eurocharged tunes and mods. The ECUs and TCUs are absolutely the same, as is the engine. The C63 BS has bigger brakes, different suspension, different bodykit and wider wheels and some additional engine cooling.

All other thigns being equal, a BS may be 0.1 seconds a lap faster over a 507 because of the wider track and tires - but to be perfectly honest, while the C63 BS adds a lot in terms of exclusivity, it does almost nothing for the performance over the APX or 507 (unlike MB's other "Black Series" cars). Look at a SLS, CLK63 or SL65 BS over the non-BS counterparts and you'll find huge differences. The C63 BS is a C63 coupe with a bodykit. No offence - I'd rather have a BS because of the exclusivity factor - but in terms of increased performance, I am afraid it simply isn't there.

Originally Posted by Mc81b

To answer your question
I'm collecting my Black Series in 2 weeks time therefore i couldnt justify the huge price difference between that but i would assume the difference could be similar in terms of comparing the M3 to M3 GTS but that would be a whole world of difference as the engine runs from 4.0L V8 to 4.4L V8, which i believe i can't apprehend into the C63 to the Black Series.

On the other hand
I had a C63 MY2008 pre facelifted W204 with minor modifications (cargraphics mid pipes/ x pipes/cats /akrapovic muffler/gruppe M intake/ecu) with only a P30 on it, the amount of power it churns out is somewhere just a little short of a stock P31/P30/LSD AMG facelifted MY2011

I was hoping to be more enlightened into making myself agree to a 70k USD difference in pricing for a 507 used to a black series used in my country of origin.

No offence mate.

Cheers

Originally Posted by Mc81b

In all fairness, 507 is released 2 years after the Black Series therefore it is quite natural for it to carry most of the BlackSeries components.
It is the last hurrah for the W204 AMG and to price it higher in comparison to the normal C63 without a P31 package,in another words, it is making buyers more willing to throw out a larger amount of money in terms of 'speccing' their cars which comes now standard with the P31/P30/LSD etc.
I do agree for the black series to be owned, it is more of being in the 'exotic club'.
But have you ever wondered, why is there no Black Series replicating a normal C63 507 whereas so many C63 are replicating Black Series?

Originally Posted by Thrilla

The 507 sedan is the closest you can get to a Black series with 4 doors.