Diabolis

The only detuned cars from the factory are the non-P31 M156s. The rest are not.

Your C63 makes 480 whp with a tune, air filters (that do nothing) and a freer-flowing exhaust? Mine makes 700 hp because I've bought enough blipshift shirts and every one of them comes with a +5 hp sticker... that and a sprinkling of fairy dust.

skratch77

can you read? My car is a full bolt on car with headers and nothing else you can do to it other than supercharging it.i have maxed out and hit 430gs/sec on my mafs

Not 1 single tuner has cracked our tuning to open the throttle bodies 100% open.

Diabolis

Yes, I can... can you? Assuming an 18% drive train loss, 480 whp is 566+ crank hp. You claim that a tune and a free flowing exhaust netted you 85 hp?

skratch77

I have all my dynos

400whp stock
432whp tune only
442whp new file row boxes and afe pro drys
460whp mbh headers x pipe stock exh
480whp no cats took out x pipe and added remus exh.

my car is probably around 490whp now with my race map running 29d timing and ms109 fuel.

Diabolis

Skratch - I am sorry, I owe you an apology. If you have advanced the cam timing and are tuning for race gas - i.e. a CUSTOM tune where it is tuned for your particular car, mods and fuel, then yes, those gains may indeed be possible. I assumed that you put on a pre-canned tune on 91 octane, slapped on an exhaust and called it a day and are now claiming that you got all this massive power. My bad.

Anyway - my point regarding the P31 and 507 differences still stands though. Both the P31 and 507 - and 99.9% of all other street cars - leave a small safety margin on the table in case you happen to put in 87 octane gas in by mistake, but the OEM 507 engine mapping is not 26 hp higher than the P31... that would be a ~ 5% difference and quite noticeable. Only the marketing materials are.

kimeran

Are you having a bad day or something?
I am just posting what I saw on the dyno, not in any way saying that my car or tuner is awesome.
You want to dispute the increases, then be my guest and go on sir

Diabolis

I am not disputing what you saw on the dyno. I am disputing its accuracy.

kimeran

Ok cool.
Please explain, if a before and after run is done on the same day, just different times, would that not be an accurate gauge of the gains irrespective of how accurate those dyno readings are?

Diabolis

On a chassis inertia dyno like a Dynojet, no, not really.

I've seen readings vary by as much as 15% that were taken half an hour apart on the same car, same dyno and same operator with no changes to anything else. From the way the car or bike is strapped down, to the tire pressures and how sticky they are, to the amount of oil foaming in the engine and transmission and the amount of oxygen in the shop - they all affect the readings. A chassis inertia dyno is nothing but a marketing tool for tuners.

Here is an article about and with Mark Dobeck, the inventor of Dynojet. You don't even have to read between the lines.

http://www.factorypro.com/magazine/S...,1-5wNOTES.pdf

Vladds

Don't the factory power numbers have to be SAE certified since 2007 or so?
Remember how it was big news, how the Subaru Sti dropped 5 HP, but the Mustang picked up and such?
This whole over-rating/under rating is a thing of the past.
And sometimes when people draw conclusions about a whole category of cars (like BMW performance cars), based on owner dyno results, they forget that manufacturers, when they allocate those multi-dozen-million budgets in research and development, aim to reduce transmission losses as well.

It is an assumption to think that a high dyno result means factory under-rating.
It means your transmission losses are what the factory implies they are for the crank power they certify, not what you assume they are, based on common wisdom.
With this said, I don't think the differences are bogus. They are there, but probably at the top of the range only.
Daily driving you won't notice them.

And as far as the top output M156 cars, those rated for 520-530HP, don't they have only one pair of cats stock anyway?
There's a video on YouTube of a drag race of a stock base C63 vs P31,vs tuned rated at 530 HP. The tuned pulls at the top end.

RacingBrake

RB offers this light weight 2 pc rotors combo that fits ALL C63 models (except Black Series*) with various rotor construction (1pc, 1.5pc, 2pc).
Features and Benefits:

1. Plug and play installation - Made to fit OE calipers without any modifications.
2. Reduced rotating mass and unsprung weight - Total weight savings of 21-35 lbs resulting in better handling driving comfort.
3. Affordable replacement components - Replacement discs can be purchased separately for about half the cost of new assembled two piece rotors from the dealer.
4. Come with our most popular XT910 brake pads for a low dust, no squeaking and well modulated performance.

*You can also upgrade to Black Series' 390/360mm rotor & caliper package (like below), and the rear hat was specifically made to fit C63 (165mm dia. vs. BS's 180mm)
Note:
RB offers true light weight two piece rotors, our hats has iron sleeve for emergency braking, light weight yet still functioning like OE, unlike other competition's aluminum hat for "Parking only" which not only you can't use it under emergency, if you forget to release the parking brake the rotor will get damaged.


Quality brakes since 1986 with brake products designed and built with 3 US patents.

lvillat

Apart from the performance aspect, what makes the Black Series a Black Series if that makes sense? I found one for sale but not sure if it's a Black Series or not. Anything visual which can help me confirm if it's a Black Series or not? Maybe a badge or something? I'm new to this so sorry if this has already been answered...

BLKROKT

Run the VIN. It’s the only way to know for sure with so many conversions out there.

Denis Kirilenko

[QUOTE=VaclavSV;6652749]Guys lets be REAL for all the 507 owners.... they bought a car superior to the black series because it was released 'at a later date' .... yes Ive actually been told that.

Anyways as someone whos owned a P31 Sedan, and Black Series... also have seen many 507s as friends own them here in Ontatio. Ive seen them all on dynos and everything the same/different about them.

Here you go OP, you went get a more honest opinion than this -Trust me!

P30 then P31 Package ... was developed by AMG as a performance upgrade to the regular C63. This included the following;
- Forged internals (probably the hardest thing to see visually)
- Different Tune (the tune on paper was 481hp, however on the dyno after a ECU tune they make IDENTICAL power to a 507... the 507 and P31 cars have the same engine... sorry 507 owners but your car is just a P31 C63 with cosmetic mods, and a different tune ECU tune from the factory. you have nothing physically different about your engine... but according to you Im probably lying.)
-2 Piece rotors for braking performance (same brakes on the 507) I laughed so hard this summer when a 507 owner told me his rotors were composite with carbon pads
- Differential (standard C63 didnt have a Diff Standard, P31 and 507 have the same diff....)
- Carbon fiber accents (The P31 package added CF accents over the standard C63


Black Series
-Forged engine internals but added additional SLS components over the P31/507
- COOLING ... one search on the forum and you will see the huge difference in cooling from a standard C63 or 507. More cooling everywhere you need it
-Body kit, the Black series added a wide body kit that completely changes the look/aggression of the car and allows the car to accommodate larger rubber. 255Front and 285 rear (Rcomps if you get the track pack which added a diff cooler) The wide body and wider tires allows the car to actually grip, again trust me when I say this (Ive owned both) A LOT better than the other C63s. The only downside to this is an Awful turn radius as every other black series will owner will admit
- So I mentioned Diff cooler which the car does that, but in addition to that it has a different differential than what comes on the other C63s
-Suspension the C63 Black Series has coil over suspension by KW but branded as a mercedes part. Ive taken these off to replace with clubsport, V3, and then because neither worked OEM. The Coil is beefier than both options made for the C63. I have a thread somewhere on here which shows how different the Black Series suspension is to standard KW coils.... I cannot comment on how a C63 with V3s or Clubsport would drive compared to a BS cause Ive never tired but the parts are different.
- The whole rear axle of the Black series is different! Its wider, built stronger, and gives the car a completely different rear end feeling. I dont know how you make a C63 feel like this with just suspension and wider rubber.. theres more going on.
- The Black series lacks sound proofing (weight savings? or just annoyance)
- The stock exhaust is louder (nothing a x-pipe or headers cant fix)
-Black series has an interior that imo is more special than the 507...red seatbelts, alcantara, CF black series trim (piece on the dash costs $3K and theres a 77 person wait list, I know this because someone tried to buy mine)
-Rear seats, or lack of rear seats -it was an option in the BS cars
-AMG Performance media, track telemetry (I think SOME 507s come w/ this, Im not 100% sure but they wouldnt get diff temps, etc.)
-CF Accents, Around the whole base of the car and on the trunk... 507 never got that.
-TCU tune... This is definitely different, the trans might have physical differences but I havent taken any apart. The cars shift differently, and the gear is changed on the black series. Also there is no 'automatic shift' in a black series in manual mode. in a P31 or 507 if youre in M the car will shift for you when you get to the limiter. In the BS this DOES NOT happen.
-lack of parking senors/blind spot sensor.... again weight reduction?
-Brakes. The BS comes with larger 2 piece rotors front and rear and calipers off the E63. yes it has better brakes... even better than composite rotors with carbon pads
-Forged aluminum wheels (P31 and 507 come w/ cast wheels)
- Under car protection. JAck the car up and the black series has more skid protection than a jeep wrangler LOL... the other C63s dont have this.
-Lightweight Aluminum trunk... the trunk on the Black series is lighter than a 507 or P31 FACT!


Okay thats about all I can think of... on to the 507

First it needs to be noted as stated before the 507 edition was created by AMG to sell off the W204.

They added the following differences from a P31;

-Stock engine tune (cars ran nearly identical 507 made more torque before ECU flash)
-BS Hood
-Painted black accents (Grille, LED covers, BS hood inserts.... I did this on my P31 before 507 came out... call me a trend setter .. although other members here added the BS hood before 507 was released as well )
-MAtte paint option. Edition 1 P31 C63 coupe was the first C63 offered in MAtte Black, the Edition 1 Sedan was offered in MAtte grey. Then the BS added MAtte white to those colours. 507 got the MAtte paint options but then added decal stripes.... com'on we all know how much HP Stickers add......)
-19" Alloys... Different wheel design... I approve .... still a CAST Wheel
-slightly different interior than a P31... contrast stitching, badges etc. Nothing that the Edition 1 had differently over the P31.

Okay so to recap;

P31 was a performance/slight engineering upgrade on the regular C63. The Black Series was a more significant perfornace/engineering upgrade on the P31, and the 507 was a marketing exercise/software upgrade over the P31.

Overall they are all amazing cars and I love each one [/Q

skratch77

Some food for thought on this thread.

I tuner from Germany told me you want the euro spec black series ecu firmware on your car to make the most power.

Run the same tune on your non bs firmware and it will make less power and the black series has a different block design that gets it a little more torque.